Moyes So Far!

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pocco said:
The writing has been on the wall for a while with this set of players, as noodle has pointed out.
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Is this the same Noodle that not 6 months ago claimed we were a better team than Madrid? Now we're so poor it's perfectly reasonable for us to be in 9th place.
 
Amir said:
It's not just the results, though. That could be the result of crappy luck. It's the style I'm looking for. I like today's team, I figured that it isn't perfect, but with the two wingers, two attacking full backs and two strikers it will cause some trouble. But we were so stale and clueless. By this time I'd expect to be able to identify some sort of style. But I see nothing apart from getting it to the wing and cross it, and the odd set piece. Hated it when we got a free kick some 40 yards away from goal, near the touch line, and rather than take it quickly waited for players to come up and belted it to the box.

That's the issue. I see nothing in our football to suggest an improvement. Carrick will return and Rooney will be back and we may sign a player or two. That will help, but in a very limited way. We have no power as a team. We'll go as far as our quality players carry us.
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To me it seems clear that we won't improve dramatically in terms of style within the current set-up. If we are to set up roughly as we do we need a top notch central midfielder to provide the link we're currently missing - and a quality winger too, if our current set can't take it up a level. And it's not insane in-itself to set up like this - it's a fair enough formation IF you have the players for it. Moyes clearly wanted a CM of the kind we're talking about here - it didn't come off during the summer for various reasons.

What we could do right now - and what I wish he'd try - is to drop the current formation and field an extra man in the middle. That won't cost us a penny - and we have little to lose at the moment.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Would you trust David Moyes to spend your money? Why appoint him in the first place? Very good question.
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No.

But they did it, so now they should probably trust him. On the other side, he signed Fellaini for all those money which might make them sceptic about future transfers. But still, we won't improve before we sign those midfielders, so if they let Moyes continue in the job, they should trust him with money too and back him on transfer market. You can't both trust him to manage the team but not trust him when it comes to signing. Of course, you can find a middle situation by appointing a director of footballer, but until then it wouldn't make much sense letting Moyes continue the job but not backing him with transfers. If they still trust Moyes, then they should give him a bunch of money to invest on the squad.
 
I want one of the journos to call him out on something in his next press conference. At the beginning of the season he said the aim was to win the title, as is always expected at Manchester United. 4 months later it's "it was always going to be a difficult season, it was always going to be a transitional season, we were always going to struggle with the change"... So which is it?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Woodward's jurisdiction will have been financing and some but not all of the negotiation, what will most likely not have been hsi call is player selection. The farce that was our pursuit of Fabregas must predominantly have its origins with Moyes, we wasted weeks of the summer on that and in the knowledge that the intricacies of any Herrera deal.

I would hope that if we have targeted Herrera for January, that most of the preliminaries have already been settled.
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True, but for all we know Woodward was assuring Moyes those deals would get done. If you look at the players we were actually linked with (presumably under Moyes' direction) things weren't too bad: Cesc, Thiago, Herrera, Baines, Coentrao, Fellaini, Khedira. They wouldn't have all been my choice but basically a strong list of targets. The actual problem seemed to come from a) stupid valuations, b) not knowing when a deal was dead and c) not understanding the details of our targets' situations. These failing would seem to point more towards Woodward than Moyes, as was the general perception at the time.
 
Moyes must've known Fabregas would be an impossible target to sign.

Why we spent the best part of a month on the chase of a signing that was never going to happen is beyond me.
 
Dominos said:
I want one of the journos to call him out on something in his next press conference. At the beginning of the season he said the aim was to win the title, as is always expected at Manchester United. 4 months later it's "it was always going to be a difficult season, it was always going to be a transitional season, we were always going to struggle with the change"... So which is it?
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Ha, I was wondering if any of the journalists will be brave enough to bring up the Zaha/Moyes' daughter story. Zaha's tweets have made it a legitimate topic for them now...
 
marjen said:
Moyes must've known Fabregas would be an impossible target to sign.

Why we spent the best part of a month on the chase of a signing that was never going to happen is beyond me.
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I suspect Moyes had feck all to do with it.
 
Spoony said:
Hang on Mike, after three decades of Fergie we weren't able to replace with him an adequate enough manager. We ought to be crying.
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Mourinho was available, I have no idea why we didn't take him. Was it too obvious or something? One of the best managers in the world, with an amazing record of success, knows the league, has actually won the league, speaks perfect English, and who's available at the exact time we're looking to replace Fergie? Nah, let's go for Moyes.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Mourinho was available, I have no idea why we didn't take him. Was it too obvious or something? One of the best managers in the world, with an amazing record of success, knows the league, has actually won the league, speaks perfect English, and who's available at the exact time we're looking to replace Fergie? Nah, let's go for Moyes.
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Mourinho would've been the expensive option. Probably.
MikeUpNorth said:
Mourinho was available, I have no idea why we didn't take him. Was it too obvious or something? One of the best managers in the world, with an amazing record of success, knows the league, has actually won the league, speaks perfect English, and who's available at the exact time we're looking to replace Fergie? Nah, let's go for Moyes.
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Sultan said:
I personally still think he needs time to create a squad to how he wants United to play, and that it's only then we can determine if Moyes has what it takes to make it as United’s manager.
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I think that's one of the main reasons so many fans are finding it hard to back him, Sults, how does he want United to play? What is his plan?...Where is he trying to take us?

I reckon if we'd hired a proven manager, who has a clear style and who has a track record of success, lets just say Guardiola as an example, and yet we'd still had the start we've had so far, more fans would be willing to give the manager the time to stamp his mark on the team. As it is, I don't think many of us have a clue what Moyes is trying to do, or what his plan is for the team (signing Fellaini and seemingly installing tactics of get it out wide and pump it into the box isn't exactly helping matters) and that's why we're all worried.
 
noodlehair said:
A lot of people have just decided to suddenly conveniently ignore the fact that this team was actually rather shit for pretty much all of last season, and most of the season before that. Bailed out almost invariably by Carrick and Van Persie, both of who have spent a majority of this season either injuired or playing despite being nowhere near their best.

That makes a big difference, and the only other difference I can see is that the belief of the players has gone. None of them seem to want the ball, and none have the confidence to do the right thing when they have it.

You can put that down to Moyes as it's his job to address it, but Ferguson has in reality left him a mess of a squad, tainted by average quality, non-winning mentality and spoilt by success. There are so many players there who it seems liked to hide their frailties behind Fergie, and now want to carry on hiding.

You're basically asking Moyes to be as good as Fergie at everything Fergie is good at, and then want to sack him off when it turns out he isn't. Ferguson might be the best manager there's ever been, but when you take his strengths away from this squad, what's becoming apparent is that it's not actually nearly as good as he claimed it was.

Who do you replace Moyes with that suddenly makes this issue go away? I know Mourinho was the big favourite on here and people were spitting their dummies when he went to Chelsea, but he's gone to Chelsea, brought in some average players and generally made them worse. He'd be faced with the same issues here as Moyes has had.

I think what's happened is a dose of reality, though what Moyes does need to do is get the players grafting like hell and forcing themselves to want the ball until they get a few results and the belief starts to come back. At the moment it's like they're all waiting for someone else to do it for them. It's clear they're not going to do what Fergie seemed to think they would in terms of being big enough characters to do it themselves.

To be honest the likes of Rio seemed to take Fergie's "don't let the new manager down" speech as some kind of reverse psychology challenge. They'll be the same whoever the manager is so I don't see the point in yielding the axe before the manager has even had a chance to yield his own.
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We had a far better team than Real Madrid, 6 months ago, by your own admission.

The idea that Mourinho would be having the same issues is presumptuous at best. For a start he hasn't made Chelsea worse, at their current rate in the league they'd better last season's points total, and he got them out the CL group stages, which they couldn't manage last season. He also took over a worse team than what Moyes did, and actually has them near the top of the table.

It's not all down to the players. Managers would have such a miniscule role if that was the case. We've seen countless times a new manager come into a club and spark an instant improvement in the team.
 
Yeah.

Being shit and not getting results could be excused as being "in transition" (God I hate that phrase) if we tried changing the way we play completely around.

What Moyes has done is trying to copy Fergie's approach, with an even shittier excuse for a central midfield, added to the Carrick injury.
 
The thing for me is all the criticisms of Moyes, I agree with nearly all of them. He horribly screwed up the transfer window, his team selections and tactics have been poor and I have very strong opinions about his training methods and his staff that he brought with him. All these things that he's done wrong have got us to where we are today and will have some serious reprecrussions going forward whether he's here or not.

To be fair to him, I do think he's done some good things so far. I give him credit for playing a role in getting Rooney back on track, I like how he doesn't rotate his goalkeepers for no apparent reason and for having the trust in Januzaj who I think can be a star player for us in the future. I want him to succeed, as I do like the idea of having stability at the club and I do think some of the players haven't helped him out, but ultimately the blame goes on the manager. That's how it is, even Mourinho and Wenger who've proven themselves for years, were the ones blamed in the end when things haven't gone right at times.
 
Spoony said:
If he's not good enough now, he wasn't good enough before he was appointed. .
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Totally agree.

That's why I don't get this whole learning on the job nonsense. Its not some sort of work experience he's on, he's managing one of the biggest clubs in the world. Would you see likes of Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc hire a manager because they though he could learn the job? Or would they just hire the best man for the job?
 
Mourinho would certainly be doing better than Moyes is so far, I have no doubt about that. Results in the short term were never going to be the issue with Mourinho though, the risk was his short term thinking and poisonous influence on the club. Until he proves that he is beyond those flaws I won't consider passing up on him to be a fatal error.

Ancelotti was more of a loss, imo. Almost as much of a winner as Mourinho and with none of the baggage. Still, maybe it was too late to prevent Real from getting him at that stage.
 
Sam said:
Totally agree.

That's why I don't get this whole learning on the job nonsense. Its not some sort of work experience he's on, he's managing one of the biggest clubs in the world. Would you see likes of Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc hire a manager because they though he could learn the job? Or would they just hire the best man for the job?
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Exactly - that's exactly what I was worried about. We're being romantic in a pragmatic (footballing) world...
 
Sam said:
I think that's one of the main reasons so many fans are finding it hard to back him, Sults, how does he want United to play? What is his plan?...Where is he trying to take us?

I reckon if we'd hired a proven manager, who has a clear style and who has a track record of success, lets just say Guardiola as an example, and yet we'd still had the start we've had so far, more fans would be willing to give the manager the time to stamp his mark on the team. As it is, I don't think many of us have a clue what Moyes is trying to do, or what his plan is for the team (signing Fellaini and seemingly installing tactics of get it out wide and pump it into the box isn't exactly helping matters) and that's why we're all worried.
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The style of play so far during his tenure has not been much different to what we have been accustomed during Sir Alex years.
 
Sam said:
Totally agree.

That's why I don't get this whole learning on the job nonsense. Its not some sort of work experience he's on, he's managing one of the biggest clubs in the world. Would you see likes of Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc hire a manager because they though he could learn the job? Or would they just hire the best man for the job?
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We're the only club in the world that hired a manager because he was loyal to his previous club. Nothing else about him made him suited to the United job, yet we picked him. It's ridiculous when you really think about it.
 
bosnian_red said:
We're the only club in the world that hired a manager because he was loyal to his previous club. Nothing else about him made him suited to the United job, yet we picked him. It's ridiculous when you really think about it.
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and nationality. Had he been, say....I don't know French, Austrian or something, would he have been?!
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Mourinho was available, I have no idea why we didn't take him. Was it too obvious or something? One of the best managers in the world, with an amazing record of success, knows the league, has actually won the league, speaks perfect English, and who's available at the exact time we're looking to replace Fergie? Nah, let's go for Moyes.
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Longevity, apparently. You know, because we're above every other club in the world. We have this long standing tradition whereby our managers have to stay several decades, which stretches back to, well, our previous manager...

There were plenty of big names outside Mourinho as well, it wasn't as if it was a case of Mourinho or settle for a nobody of European football, there were options we didn't even explore.

If we had to go for a non big name that had a higher chance of sticking around for a while, which I'd have been fine with, at least ensure they have a style and philosophy we could be proud of, that they're a progressive coach, they have a good knowledge of the European market, that they've shown huge potential in previous jobs to deserve their shot at the big time. Moyes has none of these.
 
Member 5225 said:
Exactly - that's exactly what I was worried about. We're being romantic in a pragmatic (footballing) world...
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Agreed.

Sultan said:
The style of play so far during his tenure has not been much different to what we have been accustomed during Sir Alex years.
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But, in all honesty, its a pretty outdated style. Its worked for many years for Fergie, but the footballing world is changing. 4-4-2 and cross it in the box just doesn't cut it at the very top anymore.

bosnian_red said:
We're the only club in the world that hired a manager because he was loyal to his previous club. Nothing else about him made him suited to the United job, yet we picked him. It's ridiculous when you really think about it.
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It is a bit mental to be honest. That's why I actually feel sorry for Moyes now, he just looks completely out of his depth through no fault of his own.
 
If we were going for the "stick it out for the long term option" we should've gone for an up-and-coming manager that would have implemented some fresh ideas, revamped our midfield and encouraged passing football. A more modern approach.
 
Something that is starting to gripe me is this "what if Fergie wasn't given the time to prove himself" argument.


For a start, he inherited a completely different squad and more importantly, with his success at Aberdeen it was obvious what a special manager he was. Moyes managed to maintain a midtable position, sometimes just scraping in or around Europe, sometimes avoiding relegation.


I want to get behind him and support him but it really is fecking difficult. We're talking about blind faith. Completely disregarding all logic and hoping that Fergie had him right even though Fergie has already expressed surprise that he uprooted the United coaching staff and brought in his own, average, midtable men.
 
It was surprising that United chose a man who'd won nothing. It makes it quite hard to argue his case. As for saying he needs time - why does he? He inherited the league champions. If we need changing that much, it's akin to saying that last season was a fluke. Martinez has waltzed into Everton and is doing a great job. He doesn't seem to need time. Time, in transition etc. etc. all reek of just excuses. We either have a good team that's being mismanaged, or we have a good manager with a crap team.

What worries me about Moyes is that he really isn't proven. Why is he a good manager? Because he kept Everton mid-table or thereabouts?

As for the time thing...Fergie had to build a team, so was given time. How can a team that won the league at a canter, suddenly be in transition and in need of rebuilding? Unless, of course, last season was a fluke, and we were up against teams that were worse than we were. Were we the best of a bad bunch? On MUTV earlier, someone - Atkinson - finally said that United should not be in transition. No great team should be, because good management ensures that the teams are strengthened as and when necessary. We've just let our midfield slide despite the world and his wife knowing for several years that we lacked a Keane, an Ince, a Robson.

Noodle isn't wrong in what he says. Moyes did not inherit a great team. We missed out on players that we should at least have tried to get. Cahill? Ozil? Just examples, but we sat back and let everyone else snap up players. You can also ask what our scouts are doing - were we beaten to the dotted line, or did we really believe that what we had was good enough?

We haven't got a bad team, but we are definitely inconsistent, and some of the players are distinctly average and don't deserve the amount of match time they've been getting.

But all we can do is get behind them whatever. I don't believe any of those players aren't giving their all, even if their all is pretty rubbish. It's hardly their fault if their abilities have been over-estimated.
 
Not into slagging our manager off but meekly asking RVP if he could continue seemed a bit desperate and weak.

He needs to make tough decisions on his own, take off the star man not fully fit and bring in an extra midfielder which was obviously needed.

I know it could have worked but undermines the subs and slows RVP's recovery.

Was expecting a lot more today but got more of the same. Tough season ahead by the looks of it.
 
It's simple. Moyes lacks leadership skills. He is hesitant & cautious. He is not very clever. He does not inspire. He does not show courage. He is out of his depth and he has lost the dressing room.

What is even more worrying is the Board. Do you have any faith in that lot laying down ultimatums and if necessary finding a suitable replacement?

I remember the years after Sir Mat retired and I have a horrible feeling of deja vu.
 
Spoony said:
If he's not good enough now, he wasn't good enough before he was appointed. I've said before I think the club acted shambolically this summer, and I don't just mean Woodward. Why on earth we let Gill, all the back room staff and of course Fergie go in one summer was well...very intelligent.
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This, a thousand times this. It blows my mind. I genuinely can't begin to understand why they would do it. Even if you ignore the fact that these are all proven, experienced staff, they are also the link between Fergie United and Moyes United. They know the players, their strengths and weaknesses, how to get the most out of them in training, what works for them and doesn't.

That doesn't only go for the coaches, either. Say what you will about Gill, but he has worked some good deals for United. He knew how to get it done. Woodward might know his stuff, but he has no experience in doing that particular job, which is perhaps the most important one for a new manager taking over a big club that still has obvious weaknesses and, presumably, the funds to fix them.

I don't get it.
 
DFreshKing said:
He needs to make tough decisions on his own, take off the star man not fully fit and bring in an extra midfielder which was obviously needed.
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He probably would've been crucified for making a defensive substitution by the idiots on here.
 
Dominos said:
He probably would've been crucified for making a defensive substitution by the idiots on here.
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The thing is, he's the manager of United, he shouldn't give two shits what we say or think. He said after the game that he planned on subbing him, but didn't because everyone would be asking what he was thinking with us a goal down. Who says that as a manager? It shows he lacks self belief and isn't even sure what he's doing clearly.
 
Sam said:
Agreed.



But, in all honesty, its a pretty outdated style. Its worked for many years for Fergie, but the footballing world is changing. 4-4-2 and cross it in the box just doesn't cut it at the very top anymore.



It is a bit mental to be honest. That's why I actually feel sorry for Moyes now, he just looks completely out of his depth through no fault of his own.
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Yup, he is what he is, everyone has their limits. He's a decent manager, but he took Everton as far it was possible for him to take them, and now he's just lost here. He'll probably go back to another midtable english club and push them up the table a bit, because he is a good manager, but that's all he is.

Also United has never been purely cross it into the box under Sir Alex, we were always a great counter attacking side, that used the whole pitch, not just crossing it into the box. With Moyes this season we've been crossing it from deep as well, basically not even trying to beat the fullbacks half the time, and just hoping someone will get a good header on it. Our last few years with Sir Alex weren't anything great football wise, but it got the job done, and it was usually 10-15 minutes in games where we would look like an excellent side and play great attacking football, grab a few goals then just see out the game really. This season we've not really had those good spells in games, our chances have pretty much all come from set pieces as well in the last few premier league games. Actually most of our premier league games, set pieces has been our most dangerous route to goal.
 
"I'd also like to remind you that when we had bad times here, the club stood by me, all my staff stood by me, the players stood by me. Your job now is to stand by our new manager. That is important."

Fergie's words. Don't let him down lads. We really need to stand by him, and the team, however bad they may be doing.
 
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