I have been saying this for ages, that nobody ever comes short to give the option of a pass. That's why it goes to the wing or we end up with an attempted hollywood pass that usually goes astray to put us under pressure again. Our play is too slow and ponderous as when someone gets the ball they have to take ages looking where to pass it. That has not just happened this season, we got away with it last season. It has been creeping into our game for a number of years.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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I have been saying this for ages, that nobody ever comes short to give the option of a pass. That's why it goes to the wing or we end up with an attempted hollywood pass that usually goes astray to put us under pressure again. Our play is too slow and ponderous as when someone gets the ball they have to take ages looking where to pass it. That has not just happened this season, we got away with it last season. It has been creeping into our game for a number of years.
Agree with all but the last bit. Many people are anti-moyes whether they want to admit it or not. There was no large consensus who wanted him to takeover from Sir Alex...even though as fans we're insignificant when it comes to decisions.
I'd definitely admit I'm Anti-Moyes without being a cnut about it. Its just a personal feeling that in my opinion he isn't the man to keep this club operating at the level it has done for the last 20 years.
So nothing to do with the players?
His Everton team took 4 points from Newcastle last season.
But they do enforce the point which is the whole purpose and they do it very well, and better than someone just saying "we always pass it wide" or whatever. They capture the " instance" better than words can.
And if someone posted a picture of players not taking up good positions regarding a team that generally does, like arsenal right now, then you might have a point, although I'd argue the right picture still captures the "moment" well although doesn't prove the "point" if that was the intended point. However, we're talking about a team almost everyone here thinks has serious issues with regards to movement. So a picture just provides a visual example of what is clearly the case anyway.
If you are 'anti-Moyes' by Andrews definition of how he is 'anti-Moyes', then you indirectly want to see the club fail whilst he is in charge.
His job is to get the players up for the match. When players make individual mistakes, it's not the manager's fault. When 10 of our players look like they've never played together, that's down to the manager.
If the players don't want to play for him, unfortunately that's his fault too.
Pay the 'January premium' on some top quality signings and let's try make a fist of the season yet. It is still salvageable.
Agree with all of that.
I think our definitions of 'anti-Moyes' are somewhat different. I interpreted it as being opposed to him regardless of how well we do instead of being opposed to his initial appointent. I fit in the latter camp so I suppose I'm 'anti-Moyes' in the sense you are though I still wager if he were doing well most of his skeptics would warm to him (I certainly will).
He had a weird start at Everton too didn't he? Didn't he go from 7th to 17th to 4th in his first three seasons?
Yep.
Believing moyes will fail does not equal hoping he will fail. Ludicrous to suggest people on here want him to fail.
Do i like him? No. Did i want him in first place? No. Do i purposely want him to fail? Of course not. But, like Hodgson with Liverpool, it just doesn't look like its going to happen.
Do i like him? No. Did i want him in first place? No. Do i purposely want him to fail? Of course not. But, like Hodgson with Liverpool, it just doesn't look like its going to happen.
They capture one instance, and even then without context (ignoring the obvious chance of selection bias) i.e. they could have been running to draw players away to give Nani space to drive into.
These pbs about the players not giving each others enough passing possibilities by being more mobile, were present for a while, it is understandable that SAF didn't feel the need to correct them because he had a method that was working. Maybe I'm an idiot but I really thought there would be a significant improvement of this fundamental of football under Moyes, playing it wide is a dire consequence of a lack of movement and options for the ball carrier. It starts with the 2 CBs who often dwell on the ball cause no one wants to pick it up from them. SAF let this issue install and develop itself for a long time, it was too much of a pb for it not to be corrected or attempted to be corrected by Moyes.
You don't think the small matter of Rooney having his back to Welbeck played a part in that at all?
I was disappointed when he got the job but at the same time I wanted him to succeed. But after today's performance I believe he's not on the same page as the players. They are not responding to his methods. I don't think it's a deliberate ploy like Chelsea and AVB. He's just not someone who can inspire them to eke out a win even when they are a bad run of form like now. I think it's best for everyone if he leaves in the summer. He's just not a manager who can continue to bring success. I don't think he can turn around the fortunes if he is given another season. The Fellaini signing has me worried about the quality of players he will bring in. He wasn't left with a perfect squad. But there is enough quality to be comfortably in the top 4 even when you factor in the injuries and loss of form. He's just not up to the job. Newcastle started the game with only Remy upfront but at fulltime they had Cisse, Ameobi Ben Arfa and Remy on the pitch. The fear factor is gone from visiting teams to O.T. His decision to make wholesale changes to the coaching team was bad. I wish he had kept some of Fergie's staff for a bit to help him ease into his job.
Sure. Nani has a defender completely covering him, and the other two are somehow opening up space for him to run into. That makes sense.
The idea that pictures are not a good tool to highlight positions players take up is absurd. You could argue about an individual usage of the picture or the bias you feel the poster has, but after a video it's the next best tool really and it's really odd to argue otherwise.
Thats so depressing.
To be fair, I have been one of the most active posters in Moyes's seven billions thread, and usually have been negative, and of course being called by all kind of names, from the most despicable thing ever to go and support [insert random team name].
I liked Moyes for what he did at Everton, but I never thought that he has any of the attributes of a top manager. If I was chairman I wouldn't even consider him. I rate him as manager as much as I rate Scottie Parker/James Milner as footballers. Solid, disciplined, defensive, average.
Rightly or wrongly he has been appointed here. If Chelsea/City would have appointed him I would have been in RAWK mode ('David Moyes is the manager of Manchester United' thread), pretty much in a big laugh and would rule those teams out of competition for title. (Un)fortunately he is our manager. I supported him, I want the team to win. I argumented with other fans that he is good. I called him better than Mancini (big mistake). I want him still to do good. I went crazy when Van Persie's goal was ruled offside.
However I am not blind, neither deluded. The posters which called him better than Mourinho were from idiotic to retarded (choose there). Only a few days ago someone tried to argue that his achievements on Everton are as big as Wenger's on Arsenal. Today someone laughed with the idea of us going for Klopp, because he isn't proven and argumented that Moyes was by far the better choice. This is RAWK-ish support, it's deluded (we have the best starting 8, Le Tallec is better than Ronaldo, Charlie Adam is the new Andrea Pirlo etc). It is retarded to even suggest those things.
Anyway 5 montsh after he has got the job (and 7 after it was announced), here we are. Except the introduction of Adnan Januzaj which I wasn't expected, he has done everything much worse than anyone expected. Even the biggest sceptics would have expected something better. We have already lost more points than we do on average at OT, we need to lose only 4 points to lose as much as we did during the entire course of last season. WBA, Newcastle, and Everton have won on OT after 2, 4 or 4 decades. After 15 games we are only 3 points better than Liverpool under Hodgson. No-one expected us to do as well as under Fergie. There would have been only a few - if any - managers who would have achieved that. But I wasn't expecting us to do as a completely midtable small-mentality team. We can't score, we are one of the teams who hoof the ball mostly on the league, we cross mostly on the league, we are one of the most undisciplined team in the league (look the stats if you don't believe). What is happening is fecking pathetic. We look like a version of Stoke City with smaller players. We look able to score only from corners/free kicks. I don't have any expectation anymore. We won't get relegated, but we won't play in Europe last season. Title likely was never an option.
Do I want Moyes to fail? No. I was one of the first who said good words for him on UCL thread. We did great there, and in a group which was labelled as tough we easily got qualified. But, I am not in the camp of 'give the manager all the time he wants regardless of the results, cause he'll turn out to be good'. I never wanted him, I never rated him (for us) and he hasn't done anything to prove me wrong. At the contrary, he has been much worse than I expected.
I would love to be wrong, I would love to be called an idiot if I get proved wrong, I would call myself an idiot if that happens, heck I even make a temporary tatoo if you want.
But I don't think that things will turn around. And after 5-7 months of things getting worse and worst, I think that it is the right time to rethink the situation and at-least make a re-evaluation. At the risk of getting abuse and adviced to go and support PSG, if it was my decision I would have been at the home of Marcelo Bielsa tonight.
I agree with this. The board here have clearly backed Sir Alex completely here and he has made the decision however his last big decision could well be his worst since not replacing Schmeichel effectively or letting Stam go or not signing a central midfielder for 6 years.
Not really.
He says Moyes doesn't rotate. - wrong so far
doesn't give young players chances - Januzaj
cowardly tactics - all those 1-0 and not finishing off opponents under Fergie - was that cowardly?
It'll be so amusing when Martinez makes Everton into a Wigan and they finally go down.
Maybe that was a problem as well, Moyes probably said he wanted a Fabregas type of player, so Ed Woodward then went and tried to sign the actual Fabregas.
I could give examples of Fergie doing each of those on multiple occasions. Playing for draws, playing defenders in midfield etc.
The thing is, Moyes was Everton manager. I reckon that a trip to the big boys was always a case of trying for a draw, with the aim of picking up as many points as possible against the rest. It's a bit of a daft criticism really.
You do paint a grim picture. The problem with the line of though SAF has is that he doesn't seem to be taking into consideration the differences in circumstances between the two appointments. We simply aren't a struggling fallen giant anymore, we're one of the elite clubs in the world. Something that he himself has play the major role in creating, surely he wouldn't want all his years of hard work to go down the drain just because of the belief that every manager could do with more time.
You right though, even I don't believe they'll be quick on trigger and IMO its going to be our undoing. My hope is that the Americans will work hard to protect their investment even though they know relatively little about football, surely the won't stand this if things don't improve drastically by the end of the season!
To be honest, I think Fergie would have been able to recognise if Moyes was just the Scott Parker of management. He knows Moyes extremely well, he talks football with him all the time. It's not like signing a player where he is relying on others' words or making judgements off a few games. We just need to give him time and allow him to sort this shower of shite out. Hopefully then we will see what Fergie saw. Afterall, we're usually 2 or 3 steps behind Fergie.
It's actually pathetic for a United fan to blame Ferguson for our trouble now.. Muppet.
Moyes giving Januzaj a few games does not suddenly mean he's an incredible promoter of youth. In fact, if anything, it's what that guy was saying. He's saying that Moyes would often give some young players games here and there when they were clearly talented, but never really continued with it. Januzaj's only recently broken through, but him getting a few games does not mean Moyes is suddenly a god when it comes to young players.
I don't see how Fergie's tactics have anything to do with Moyes. For what it's worth, there were games under Fergie in recent years when we were 1-0 up and should have played with more conviction to put away opponents. Fergie was a winner though; Moyes has shown at Everton though that while he could take them to a good league finish, they were fairly average against a lot of the big teams. His away record against the traditional big four and lack of trophies shows that.
The last part just strikes me as bitter. Martinez has done an excellent job at Everton so far and looks to be continuing on in the right direction. They'll be here in the top half to stay.
Our team has over-performed for the last few years, thanks to the love the players have for SAF and desire to make him proud. They're all probably still in shock over SAF leaving, considering they only heard about it very late last season.
Moyes will need to build his own team, like he did at Everton, and it will take a few years. We might hang on to Rooney, De Gea, Rafael, Jones and Evans, but Moyes needs to bring in players suited to his style and who want to play for him.
By the time Moyes has remade the team the likes of Carrick, van Persie and Vidic will be in their twilight years and will need replacing.
The results have been very disappointing, but for me that's way more on the players than the manager.
Once he has a chance to replace half the squad I think we'll be more able to judge how he's doing as our manager.
Moyes will need to build his own team, like he did at Everton, and it will take a few years. We might hang on to Rooney, De Gea, Rafael, Jones and Evans, but Moyes needs to bring in players suited to his style and who want to play for him.
By the time Moyes has remade the team the likes of Carrick, van Persie and Vidic will be in their twilight years and will need replacing.
The results have been very disappointing, but for me that's way more on the players than the manager.
Once he has a chance to replace half the squad I think we'll be more able to judge how he's doing as our manager.
First of all, as a thought experiment, he's been in the job for 5 months, does anyone think any other top club in Europe would show his performance in the job so far, great understanding?
The club hired a manager who has never really shown he's a winner. The first thing he talked about when he took over was how impressed he was with the attitude of the players, that they were real winners. Well, maybe he was less impressed and more in awe. That mentality he kept referring to is no longer present.
The club hired a manager who has never hinted at tactical brilliance or a positive footballing philosophy. Why simply look for a lesser SAF instead of actually looking to improve.
Isn't it a mark of a winner that they look to improve. Not stand still, but progress. Well, I think the club lack ambition. There are plenty of areas of our play that can be improved and many of those are discussed time and again on these message boards. There are deep-rooted problems in our squad (midfield) which should already have been addressed and weren't by SAF for a number of years. And our player acquisition can also be questioned. After all, we did sell the best player in the world to a so-called rival and failed to reinvest the money properly. Not because it's the United way to unearth outrageously brilliant youngsters, but because of the way the Glazers do business and SAF went along with it. Will opposition grow now that there isn't an untouchable legend in place to defend them?
SAF was a phenomenal manager, an absolute legend. But he was not infallible. Instead of just settling for someone who may or may not enable business as usual, why not look for someone as ambitious as SAF (or more so)? I do not think SAF should be calling the shots anymore. Great he's there as an ambassador of the club, available for advice, but ultimately, the man in charge needs to be totally unquestionably in charge. I'd welcome someone with 100% self-belief. I've never really been convinced Moyes believes in his ability or that he has some vision.
The appointment of the Chief Executive also looks clueless.
For the record, I do not think people want him to fail, I think everyone here wants him to smash it, to show what he's made of, present us with positive ideas and inspired and determined players who he infects with his aura and authority. I'd like to be proved so gigantically wrong with regards to his managerial ability at a club with alleged supreme ambitions. I'm afraid though that he is just an indication of lack of such ambition and I worry that the players performances reflect that
The club hired a manager who has never really shown he's a winner. The first thing he talked about when he took over was how impressed he was with the attitude of the players, that they were real winners. Well, maybe he was less impressed and more in awe. That mentality he kept referring to is no longer present.
The club hired a manager who has never hinted at tactical brilliance or a positive footballing philosophy. Why simply look for a lesser SAF instead of actually looking to improve.
Isn't it a mark of a winner that they look to improve. Not stand still, but progress. Well, I think the club lack ambition. There are plenty of areas of our play that can be improved and many of those are discussed time and again on these message boards. There are deep-rooted problems in our squad (midfield) which should already have been addressed and weren't by SAF for a number of years. And our player acquisition can also be questioned. After all, we did sell the best player in the world to a so-called rival and failed to reinvest the money properly. Not because it's the United way to unearth outrageously brilliant youngsters, but because of the way the Glazers do business and SAF went along with it. Will opposition grow now that there isn't an untouchable legend in place to defend them?
SAF was a phenomenal manager, an absolute legend. But he was not infallible. Instead of just settling for someone who may or may not enable business as usual, why not look for someone as ambitious as SAF (or more so)? I do not think SAF should be calling the shots anymore. Great he's there as an ambassador of the club, available for advice, but ultimately, the man in charge needs to be totally unquestionably in charge. I'd welcome someone with 100% self-belief. I've never really been convinced Moyes believes in his ability or that he has some vision.
The appointment of the Chief Executive also looks clueless.
For the record, I do not think people want him to fail, I think everyone here wants him to smash it, to show what he's made of, present us with positive ideas and inspired and determined players who he infects with his aura and authority. I'd like to be proved so gigantically wrong with regards to his managerial ability at a club with alleged supreme ambitions. I'm afraid though that he is just an indication of lack of such ambition and I worry that the players performances reflect that
What did the Everton fans expect? Moyes couldn't have done any better with the investment he had.
Martinez has gotten a bit lucky with getting Lukaku and Barry on loan, let's see what he does next season when he has the buy a good striker on a budget. Very easily forgotten that Martinez signed Kone, McCarthy and Alcaraz from Wigan yet I don't see him getting the stick mOyes is getting for signing Fellaini.
Martinez has gotten a bit lucky with getting Lukaku and Barry on loan, let's see what he does next season when he has the buy a good striker on a budget. Very easily forgotten that Martinez signed Kone, McCarthy and Alcaraz from Wigan yet I don't see him getting the stick mOyes is getting for signing Fellaini.
The worrying thing, is will United simply stick by him for the foreseeable future if we dwindle where we currently are in the table. We know United's/SAF's/Glazers stance on 'continuity' which is somewhat admirable, but more naive than anything.
Moyes still have five and a half years on his contract, which is a ridiculous length of a contract in this day and age when success is becoming increasingly more important, along with revenue from finishing as high as possible/attaining a CL position.
I don't know the money he is on, but I imagine if we were to sack Moyes right now, we would have to pay him around £20-£25M in compensation and we know how frugal the Glazers are with money.
We have essentially put ourselves in this precarious situation by how many years we've given Moyes and if things go up the shitter (as it looks now), we have to pay out a massive lump sum on his contract - will the Glazers do that? While also, potentially paying out a lot in compensation for a new manager.
That six year contract is the one of the most ridiculous, naive things to happen to the club since SAF retired and are we also expected to just stand by the manager for the sake of 'continuity' if we continue to do shit? Moyes has to prove he is worthy of the job and shouldn't be given a free ride or years to prove himself if he doesn't do well in the foreseeable future.
Moyes still have five and a half years on his contract, which is a ridiculous length of a contract in this day and age when success is becoming increasingly more important, along with revenue from finishing as high as possible/attaining a CL position.
I don't know the money he is on, but I imagine if we were to sack Moyes right now, we would have to pay him around £20-£25M in compensation and we know how frugal the Glazers are with money.
We have essentially put ourselves in this precarious situation by how many years we've given Moyes and if things go up the shitter (as it looks now), we have to pay out a massive lump sum on his contract - will the Glazers do that? While also, potentially paying out a lot in compensation for a new manager.
That six year contract is the one of the most ridiculous, naive things to happen to the club since SAF retired and are we also expected to just stand by the manager for the sake of 'continuity' if we continue to do shit? Moyes has to prove he is worthy of the job and shouldn't be given a free ride or years to prove himself if he doesn't do well in the foreseeable future.
Looking back through this thread for a sense of perspective and came across my thoughts from September.
It didn't seem possible we would be this far down the table in December.
It didn't seem possible we would be this far down the table in December.
It's not bitterness. I'm just saying I'll be amused. IMO they won't be as stable as under Moyes and could go down eventually. Again - my opinion. We'll see.
We have over-achieved in recent years, but it'd be alright to let Moyes off with that if he was perhaps in City's position; not awful but not brilliant for a team in contention. The over-achieving excuse can't be used when we're sitting in 9th with 22 points after 15 games.
Does our squad have weaknesses? Yes. Does it have so many weaknesses that it shouldn't be expected to compete for the title? No. It's all well and good to say that Moyes needs to re-build, but if he's not getting the best out what he currently has (challenging for the title is this sides level) then questions have to be asked. At the moment, he's not even very near top 4, nevermind title contention.
He should be given this season, but unless there are significants improvements from where we currently are, then he's not going to be the one doing the re-building.
Moyes would never have been my choice but obviously I desperately wanted him to do well. As it is I still want him to stay and be given more time, at least enough for him to have the opportunity to strengthen and get things right. If I'm being honest though that's more out of a sense of principle than any real faith that Moyes is the right guy. Only a few days ago I said I would be happy with Moyes so far if we were within striking distance of the top of the table by January. Since then we've surrendered the title without any real fight. It's not the results that bother me though, so much as the sense that Moyes has no control over things, that he doesn't actually know what he can do to put things right.
At the moment I'm looking to the transfer window in the hope that Moyes can use it to bring in the quality we appear to lack. That's worrying though, as it puts a massive amount of pressure on the club to do some seriously impressive business. I'm also hoping that the return of Carrick and RvP can galvanise the team and raise performances. I'm worried though. If this team of supposed champions can sink to ninth without any real response then something is very, very wrong.
Still, calling for Moyes' head won't improve anything. Realistically it would be the summer before we could replace him anyway, so wanting him gone makes absolutely no sense to me. Best to just wait and see what happens next.
At the moment I'm looking to the transfer window in the hope that Moyes can use it to bring in the quality we appear to lack. That's worrying though, as it puts a massive amount of pressure on the club to do some seriously impressive business. I'm also hoping that the return of Carrick and RvP can galvanise the team and raise performances. I'm worried though. If this team of supposed champions can sink to ninth without any real response then something is very, very wrong.
Still, calling for Moyes' head won't improve anything. Realistically it would be the summer before we could replace him anyway, so wanting him gone makes absolutely no sense to me. Best to just wait and see what happens next.
You've given nothing to back up that opinion though. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that they're going to go down: they'd have to at least look like falling away from being a top half side for that to happen. Moyes did an excellent job at Everton, but he wasn't some godly figure as some seem to believe who was taking a relegation candidate to the top half. Once he built his side, any good manager worth their salt, like Martinez now, would be able to sustain that level of around 6th-8th or 9th.
I think all of those being 'anti-Moyes' just want to cut the losses and move on.
If we made a poll last year who we want to replace Fergie at helm would anyone want Moyes really?
Trouble is Moyes is a nice guy, difficult to "hate" him and wanting him to fail so I find it hard to believe that there are fans that want him out because of his personality. However being nice guy at a top club never pays off.
I can't recall a nice guy who isn't arrogant and great authority figure and has been successful. Fergie, Capello, Jose, Hitzfeld, all are temperamental and great stamp of authority in the clubs they've managed.
Moyes on the other hand lacks the character and is painfully obvious.
My dad goes to watch Wigan now and again and he said Kone is awful. Would be interesting to see if Lukaku was injured and they had to rely on him.
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