That's wrong. Cantona was always arrogant, as was Ronaldo. Schmeichel was best in the world and Rooney would have been exactly like he is now regardless of where he went. Read any interview with the Class of '92 and they'll contradict what you just said about them.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
- Start date
- Status
That's wrong. Cantona was always arrogant, as was Ronaldo. Schmeichel was best in the world and Rooney would have been exactly like he is now regardless of where he went. Read any interview with the Class of '92 and they'll contradict what you just said about them.
Sorry guys, I haven't been keeping up but has this been posted?
http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/d...on-defeat-called-former-fans-a-fing-disgrace/
http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/d...on-defeat-called-former-fans-a-fing-disgrace/
Fair enough point, but at the end of the day, losing Fellaini was probably a blessing in disguise and also I like Martinez's style of play. The only reason I can think of is that Moyes is playing it safe and slowly getting his feet under the table. Was you like this when Sir Alex took over in November 1986? If you support your team, you support them whether they win, lose or draw no matter what. What we don't need at the club are spoilt fans who have only known success and, because we have a new manager; cannot accept losing. Can you deal with the losses, the draws?
When Sir Alex took over in 1986, the club wasn't winning pretty much every trophy in sight.
Well, part of the explanation for that is that Martinez has introduced a clearly different style. Moyes has - rightly or wrongly - retained much of our old style (or lack thereof, as some would have it). We aren't looking wildly different in terms of the set-up from what we did under Fergie. That's obviously a conscious choice on Moyes' part - and one that may be questioned. But it's not a case of him utterly failing to install a brand new style either - which is what some seem to think. He seems to change things around slowly - that's how I see it. Clearly too slowly to some people's liking - but there you go. I think we'll learn much more about his methods once a couple of new signings are in place.
Personally I definitely can. It's aimless and pointless football with great footballers that grates me.
Last night I was fuming, it wasn't so much the result it was the predictability of it, I just knew we were going to lose. Nothing seems to be working at the moment, nothing's clicking and the players look lost. Yes we could have been two or three up at one stage however we could also have been down by the same score line.
I'm backing Moyes as I believe it's important we give him time, as hard as it is at the moment he deserves at least one season. He needs to sort it out and fast, failure to qualify for the Champions League is not an option in my eyes.
I'm backing Moyes as I believe it's important we give him time, as hard as it is at the moment he deserves at least one season. He needs to sort it out and fast, failure to qualify for the Champions League is not an option in my eyes.
The first couple of corners we took were literally outswinging corners aimed at Fellaini. It was incredibly uninspiring.
Good man. What I think is happening is that he is using the players on a regular basis, however, he hasn't totally won the players over and he needs to impose his own character, if indeed he has one. We need to have a new hairdryer and I hope he can provide it.
That goes hand in hand with losing football matches. If we were living up to our potential and playing great football, we wouldn't be losing games.
Difference between Martinez and Moyes is, Martinez was able to get the the player he wanted and in doing so fixed one glaring weakness the Everton sides of the past had i.e scoring goals.Who's to say Moyes wouldn't have gotten Lukaku on loan this season had he stayed there
Moyes on the other hand was not backed properly by our board and we ended up with a 27m panic signing. We essentially have the same team that we had last season and it's difficult to expect Moyes to put what he wants into practice. I'll judge him next season after what I hope will be a good summer window for us
Moyes on the other hand was not backed properly by our board and we ended up with a 27m panic signing. We essentially have the same team that we had last season and it's difficult to expect Moyes to put what he wants into practice. I'll judge him next season after what I hope will be a good summer window for us
Moyes isn't succeeding Atkinson and while there are question marks about our team's quality, its much better then the bunch of drunkards SAF found in that period. And were the feck have I shown lack of support? I still support Manchester United but that doesn't necessary mean that I will be happy with every stupid decision our beloved mid EPL table side level manager does. Id like to think that there's a difference between supporting your team and being an idiot.
Agree. If we wanted a manager who was going to come in and drastically change our style of play (as Martinez has done at Everton), then Moyes was always going to be a disappointment. He just isn't that kind of manager. He's strikes me as a pragmatic guy who won't change what works and instead gradually tweaks things as he goes along, especially as he signs new players. He said it'd take two or three seasons before it's really his team and I'd say that's about right. More of a custodian than a revolutionary, which isn't always a bad thing. Unfortunately, it now appears more drastic change is needed so it'll be interesting to see how he adapts.
Not the point. Winning and losing is part of the game. But when you have this standard of players which the club is in a fortunate enough period to be able to have, they shouldn't look devoid of any plan or system to the extent that. Ames you wonder what kind of coaching is being done.
I don't think that should be the emphasis. I don't care if Moyes is a the big bad bear in the dressing room or the fidgety freckled teenager. I just want to see some signs that were looking to build a team to move with the times. One that at least tries to play slightly technical football and tries to figure out a way to open up teams through good passing rather than constantly "getting it out wide!", and grafting.
I mean seriously, we look like were a bit out dated in the way we play our football.
I know. You said you could deal with the losses but not the shit/aimless football. Was just pointing out not many teams lose playing great football. Dealing with loses also involves dealing with the frustration of watching the team not play to potential.
I see where you are coming from, and with the constant tinkering of the system and obviously the midfield area, he is trying to find out which works best. His error last night was not allowing Kagawa to play centrally all through the game, instead he actually subbed him off instead of Welbeck. I have no problems with Welbeck, he is a good player, he is confident, but he is like a rabbit in the headlights, he freezes and does very little. He tried Fellaini last night without Cleverley and to be honest, we didn't win, fair enough, but Fellaini came through with flying colours and was able to hold his own. I think that Moyes has sussed Cleverley out as the weakest link in the midfield area and he will probably do something to remedy that in the near future. As I said, I am sticking with Moyes and I hope he imposes his character, and only his character mind you, and try to get this rather disfunctional team to play as a unit, because this is what we are, disfunctional, a great many parts but not much else. I'll be honest in that his perfect team was the one set out against Leverkusen in Europe, and he should try and keep it that way. Only problem is that Giggs isn't getting any younger and Kagawa is a really competent player in the middle. So, what we need to do to try and function correctly is to try and stop using Welbeck for a while, along with Cleverley because they have offered very little since the start of the season. He needs to get someone to play the left-back position and give Evra some competition because whether we like it or not, Evra is going to leave and we need someone with experience to take his place and to put Lennon back in his place too. There are probably other things, but my head is hurting...
I wasn't talking about "great" football though. There's a middle ground between great football and this shit on a stick stuff we've been playing in recent times. People constantly complain about a lack of movement, a lack of technical quality, a case of stage fright when in central areas and obsession with giving the ball to the wide man under any and every circumstance. All of her his despite a fantastic squad of footballers.
There's a difference between that, and say, arsenal in recent times who always had their gameplan and style right and meant to head in a particular direction, despite winning feck all.
If anything it feels like players are being coached too much. We need to allow some freedom and expression.
There are many things to work on, the best formation/style/tactic and many players who aren't performing at the adequate levels. The team needs a lot of youth and energy to play football. Moyes has a lot of areas to work on.
I think he just needs to try something different, he's tried the players who play more simple and safer football in welbeck and valencia and its just not working, and I know he's tried kagawa as well, who hasn't been at his best either, but he hasn't tried him with januzaj and nani, two players who would interact with him very differently than the former two would. It's got to be worth a go because right now welbeck/valencia aren't visibly adding much more defensively and they're certainly not attackingly. I mean Valencia shouldn't drop out completely as he's been picking up his game even if the crossing has been pretty shocking, but between the two of them as half our attack they're doing little in the attacking third without seemingly adding that much more extra in defence.
Ultimately our approach isn't any different to last season, maybe you could argue we might try playing it long a bit more but it's still the same pattern off largely coming through the wings and we knew last season that the attack wasn't playing that great with RVP making the most of his chances. We haven't had that this season, although Rooney has stepped up, and we've been a little bit unlucky at times but at the same time we've been too reliant on a one dimensional attack for a while. We've got players who can add depth to the attack but for me there's not much point playing just one of them because they need each other to play their games and that means us being a bit less cautious. It might not work but it's got to be worth a proper go.
I maybe wrong, but I feel that either Welbeck/Kagawa or Evra on the left are not causing any problems for any right-back, and the other problem is that Valencia is a technically gifted footballer and has pace except he very rarely gets past his man. This only leaves us with the ball going through the middle and having the likes of Cleverley just does nothing since he either passes it sideways or backwards, leaving the likes of Smalling/Rio or Vidic to hoof it forward in hoping that one of our players actually wins the header, which is very rarely the case. It might work for Stoke, since they have Crouch as a central figure to bring the ball down and bring players into play, but that is too much to ask Rooney to do, on top of all the other stuff he has to do. We need to fix the midfield problem and get someone who has that confidence to get the ball forward, and it pains me to say it but, the fact that we didn't try to force the issue with Fabregas still gets me. He would have been ideal because he is the right sort of player to have.
To be honest, I think Valencia could be an ideal right back in that he could support the player in front of him, whoever that may be, but at the same time be able to get back to defensive duties. As far as Kagawa is concerned, he did really well in the middle, but out wide on the left, just like Welbeck, it was sloppy. I cannot help thinking this expression springs to mind "Too many cooks spoil the broth." This being that you have Welbeck on the left, Kagawa is going in behind him then you have additional support from Evra every five minutes. This is too much and has led to problems in the last few games where they are getting in each others way. It is about time Moyes just told them their jobs and get them to stay there. Occasional support from Evra is ok, but every five minutes is just too much.
I've always thought Valencia could do a job at right back, particularly if we had two proper midfielders to ensure we had control, but as we saw yesterday it's always a risk.
I agree on Kagawa, I thought he was looking fine in the middle but as with against Spurs Moyes made the change which for me was detrimental both times, reducing kagawa's influence, reducing Rooney's influence by dragging him deeper with us gaining nothing from moving Welbeck. As I said in the Kagawa thread I think he has to take some blame but also that I think most players of his mould would struggle if they were swapped in for him because playing alongside valencia and welbeck they simply wouldn't get the movement they're looking for. His game is based on others moving, or picking the ball up in a tight area and passing it out, they don't do that (although Welbeck could). If we try him with nani and januzaj for a spell and he still doesn't shine than fair enough it's probably him but until then I don't think it's quite fair to just play him. I mean it would be fair enough to question if he was limited, certainly he doesn't seem to want to carry the ball and attack people, but he is what he is, just like Valencia is just going to wait for some space to cross and until he gets it he'll play it safe.
I think the problem is that Moyes knows the midfield is weak and so wants Welbeck and Valencia playing when they're fit for their work rate and physicalitybut that causes other issues. They're not the sort of players who do well from deeper positions or in crowded areas but because the midfield lacks passing ability they inevitably have to come short for the ball and so they struggle. Where as the players who could still influence in tight areas such as nani, januzaj (who I know has played a fair bit but has still been left out the last two games and against Cardiff) and kagawa are used either one at a time or sparingly because presumably he doesn't think they'll track as well. But it's that thing off whilst that may well be true on the other hand we might attack better and so not need to defend as much.
either way like I said we've tried using one of them, or for a short spell two of them with nani and januzaj, but why not try the three of them for a run of games.
Absolutely. It's amazing how some people still don't give SAF enough credit, even after the shambles we're witnessing right now with the same squad he made champions months ago.
SAF might have not been the reason for a specific player to succeed or not, because that wasn't his aim anyway, but he always seemed to be able to find the right formula using the players he has to make sure that United are successful. We missed on many great players like Shearer, who could have had a totally different career had he chose to join United, but in the end, SAF wasn't dependent on him, and succeeded regardless.. He did the same when we lost Ronaldo (and Tevez), when people thought we have no chance in hell in competing for the title after that, and guess what we still dominated the league regardless, winning 2 out of 4, and only losing the other 2 by a single point combined.
Basically, Kagawa through the middle with Nani and Januzaj playing on the wings, and of course, swapping every so often so as not to make both left back and right back comfortable. I seem to remember Valencia skinning his man in his first one on one recently, then the rest of the game he was forever hitting the players leg. A defender may get beat, but in that process of being beaten, he would already have found out how a winger ticks, and in the end, he owned Valencia all the game. As for Nani, he is a good player, but he needs to get out of the "Ronaldo mode", and start passing to players in better positions. Some of his shots are ridiculous and would be much better being played along the ground to an attacker or indeed a cross into the box. There has to be a change of attitude of some players as well though, this cannot be stressed enough. So, I like the idea of Kagawa, Nani and Januzaj, but we need to be able to have a competent back up for any one of those players should they get injured.
I am used to being shot down Danny, don't worry. Some people think it is the players that do the job. We lost Cantona, we lost Stam, we lost Bruce and Pallister, Irwin, Schmeichel, RVN, David Beckham, Cristiano Ronaldo and many others besides. Your stats about what we have won since Ronaldo and Tevez left are correct. We have won 2 leagues, 1 league cup, 3 Charity Shields plus 2 runners up places since they left. Ronaldo has won 1 La Liga, 1 Copa del Rey and 1 Spanish Supercup. Tevez has won one premier league, one FA Cup, 1 Community shield and 1 Italian Supercup so far. At the end of the day, Sir Alex inspired the aforementioned players, he instilled a winning mentality to match his own, the very same he used to jee up the Aberdeen squad. Just one more thing, RVP played in an Arsenal team that had quality players including himself of course, however, he only ever won the Premier league once and a community shield. Sir Alex signs him up and he gets a winners medal because of his contribution, however some seem to be blind to this fact, that he was already world class when he was with Arsenal.
Yes and yes.
The idea that things should not have changed for the better because we've had one manager for a long time doesn't wash with me. Hardly any of the squad have even been at Old Trafford for more than a decade. I doubt the likes of Vida and Evra even remember the 1993/94 side.
http://www.stretfordendarising.com/2013/12/05/5-things-we-learned-manchester-united-0-1-everton/
some common sense stuff
some common sense stuff
Rio, Darren and Wayne say hello...
You also missed Giggs who is the most obvious but I didn't say none, I said hardly any.
My point remains unchanged. Moyes leaving a side he'd been at for over a decade hasn't stopped Martinez overhauling it in a very short time period. Why should we not expect Moyes to have a similar impact at United? A team that finished with 89 points last year shouldn't be looking at the prospect of fourth place with relief. He should be given 'time' but he should need time, or at least not as much as he obviously does...
Great read, and this part sticks out most for me:
The words "nail" and "head", spring to mind.
Giggs is part of the furniture 07...
No, but what do you expect? You said it yourself that Moyes had been with Everton for over a decade and hasn't got very far apart from top-6 finishes. Therefore, if you think about it, what is the use of his appointment at all? He had decent players at Everton too, but they seldom got far. He has some world class players for us, yet Moyes is limited at the moment. He doesn't have the winning mentality at the moment, but at the end of the day, he is our manager and he needs our support.Utter nonsense.
Do you think people pay their hard earned money to see United play badly just so they can say 'aha told you I was right about Moyes'?
The idea that people complain because they are too used to success is barely worth even commenting on. Cos, of course, it'd be wonderful to go back into the wilderness like we did in the 70s and 80s because then at least we'd be able to know who the 'real' fans are. Give me a break.
If you're happy paying to watch United play badly then good for you. The rest of us, with bills and families to support, are gonna continue to be annoyed thanks.
So, as far as I'm concerned, the players played badly, Moyes made the substitutions that everyone wanted and yet he is still being criticised. We know you are butthurt because Mourinho didn't come here, but come on and give the man a break. Secondly, with the bolded part, if you remember the 70s and 80s, then you must have been one of those who were criticising Sir Alex too, if you say you didn't, then you are clearly lying since it looks as though you are impatient. Thirdly, I live in another country, in a city where the rent is very expensive, I have two daughters to feed and buy clothes too. So, don't start thinking you are the only one to be paying bills or have a family.
From another site:
He is not wrong.
Quite.
Okay article though the writing was terrible. It is better if they use paragraphs of more than one sentence.
The only thing that I didn't like and screamed when I heard is why the feck everytime when the discussion comes either to players or manager there are a lot of people who aren't able to see outside of England. Especially considering that nowadays all of Spain, Germany and Italy are light years ahead when it comes to both managers and players.
You do realise this country has gone through an economic downturn, right? And that pretty much the only thing that's stopping our economy falling off a cliff again is that the people Britain borrows off believe that we'll continue to reduce our deficit, which is why they aren't calling in the loans?
I dunno your circumstances. Maybe you don't think twice about making the financial commitment to support United. That's cool. A lot of people do. And if you think that's consumerism then you need to remember that Sir Matt said something like United have a duty to entertain the people who had worked hard all week and had paid to come see them. Something that all his players took very much to heart if you believe Sir Bobby. Guess they were consumers too...
Come on, supporting the team only means something out on the pitch or on match day. For me that means getting behind the players on the pitch and keeping gripes, if any, for the pub or alternatively nowadays forums like this.
Having a discussion about Moyes on the CAF and having views on him is no different to the types of discussions which have gone on in pubs for decades between reds and has nothing to do with support for the club. Whatever anyone's views on anything they are still supporters of MUFC, they just might hold different views to you.
- Status