I just dont see much of a risk changing managers. I cant see us finishing in the top 4 under Moyes.
Perhaps not this season, the idea of Moyes wasn't to have this immediate season long impact and then burn out and piss off like the sugar daddies do to clubs. If the club get rid of him before the summer, it will be a mistake, as you'll never know, he hasn't had long enough, I do not want him out and have every faith in him.
Also, enjoyed seeing Nani/ Januzaj come on, shame neither played well, but it's a lot better than the negative subs we have seen of late.
The lineup against Spurs was hesitant, but understandable. They had been demolished the week before and Moyes would have expected them to attack us from the offset. Playing Valencia and Welbeck to cover their fullbacks against two tricky wingers was a frustrating choice for a Manchester United team, but an understandable one.
However as I said before the game: if Moyes starts with Welbeck and Valencia against Everton, he will be digging his own grave. It sends a message to the opposition that from the offset our plan is to contain and frustrate and consequently they came at us in the first 10 minutes without any fear or concern - something I've never seen a Moyes team do away from home against a quality team. This set the tone for the whole game: they believed they were our equals, in fact they knew they were at least our equals. Obviously with 30 minutes to go Moyes brought on the players who should have started, but leaving Welbeck on the field was an absolute travesty; likewise taking Rafael off even though he looked fit and was playing very well. By that stage it seemed to be a nervy managers last hurrah to win a game we had to win, which Everton took advantage of. The bizarre thing is that every time we have conceded late and dropped points this season 5 - 15 minutes before the goal I've said "they are gong to score". It's so painfully obvious but Moyes' attempts at preventing it are futile.
Getting beat by Everton, even at home, when they play very, very well is nothing to be ashamed about. If you go out to win, miss a bucket load of chances and they hit you on the break you put it down to a bad/unlucky day at the office and move on. If we had beaten 3-4 of So'ton, West Brom, Cardiff, Chelsea and Spurs, all games where at half time the game was there for the taking if we were aggressive enough. The fact is we aren't setting out to beat these teams, we are setting out to contain and frustrate them and hope that Rooney/RVP do something special. Which they quite often do, as the are top class - you look at the games against Sunderland, Stoke, Arsenal and even Crystal Palace and see games where we are reliant on individuality when we are struggling to create. Last night it was obvious that if Rooney had an off day we wouldn't score. I would have loved to see the odds for first goal scorer after Rooney. I imagine it would have been Rooney at 3 or 4/1 and then Welbeck/Giggs/Kagawa/Valencia all at 10 or 15/1, I bet Hernandez was our second favourite from the bench?
Obviously this culminates in us being 9th in the table and being a team that looks lost and incohesive. Newcastle at the weekend will be another big test for Moyes, particularly without RVP/Rooney, but unfortunately for him it's a test he has already failed time after time this season. Thus far it looks like the obvious is actually... Obvious: His entire career of 750 games trying to contain/frustrate and nick a goal is intrinsic to his managerial style, not merely a choice based on the players he has at his disposal. It's like hearing Pulis after taking the Crystal Palace job "I will assess the squad and cater the tactics and style to what I believe is best suited to the squad", the following week they are lumping it forward to Jerome and Chamakh. Everyone laughed at Allardyce when he said that his style is more suited to Milan or Madrid than Blackburn or Bolton, implying that he merely gets the best out of what he is given. Now we have an Allardyce we are realising that most managers can't just switch their style to suit their team. Moyes seemed to have overstayed his welcome at Everton because his tactics can comfortably take you from relegation fodder to 6th, but can rarely take you above that. Likewise Martinez' tactics will get you relegated at Wigan, but you're much more likely to be successful with more resources.
He has the season to prove that an old dog can learn new tricks; that a leopard can change its spots. People can turn things around after a difficult start, as Sir Alex did. However most other managers of clubs like United have success and achievements to hang their hat on. Fergie had his unbelievable success at Aberdeen, his work with the youth team and glaring issues ingrained in the team that he inherited. Unfortunately for Moyes he doesn't have any relevant achievements or success and nothing positive has happened since he joined. He's earned the right to be backed by the fans vocally and the board financially this season; if he gets fourth he has again earned this right for next season. If he takes us from Champions to 5th however, he has to go.
Why? What have you seen to generate such faith?
So, are you saying you expected this much of an impact with Moyes? Yes there was always going to be an impact but anyone that says they could forsee this big a dip is lying. Moyes has criminally under achieved so far.
I think what some who are defending Moyes need to remember here is that its not just the current position in the table thats causing the reaction - the performances are extremely poor, his decisions in the summer were "baffling" at best, the Fellaini situation, the style/lack of that we are producing....its way more than "we are 9th in the table so he needs to go" that some are portraying here.
whats the deal with DM and RVP? why can't he come out and just say how long he will out for?
whats the deal with DM and RVP? why can't he come out and just say how long he will out for?
If someone shows you something to show they are at X level, you'd believe in them, you wouldn't need faith, so asking what he has done to deserve having faith is a stupid question really?
By "this much of an impact", I'd say people were hoping he'd have a more positive initial impact, but to say he has done 'criminally', is laughable really. Lets not include the summer as it’s been done to death on here, but several comments have been made regarding initial team selection, such as Ashley Young, and now we have seen the use of him drop severely, there were calls that Nani needed to play more, and since we have seen Nani get more minutes. Another gripe was his negative substitutions, yesterday he brought on Nani/Januzaj for Valencia/Rafael, changing the shape also to a lot more attacking, unfortunately, it didn’t transpire and we ended up loosing, but had he played it safe with his subs, you’d all have been moaning on here.
Firstly, I never portrayed anything remotely similar to because of our league position he needs to go, in fact, you questioned me showing faith towards Moyes. So, the key points you feel are warranting to fire a manager 3 months after his first competitive game because:
1. “Baffling” summer decision
We all know this wasn’t even MAINLY due to Moyes, Moyes would have identified targets, between him Ed, Edd and Eddy something was messed up, but as it was our DOF’s first season as DOF, perhaps a bit of common sense would alleviate the blame for Moyes somewhat
2. The Fellaini Situation
In regards to overpaying for him? Or in regards to his form? If it’s due to his form, then you could say the same of other established players in our team, so that points moot, in regards to the amount we paid, there is his first mistake for me, but that was something we were aware of 3 months ago, and you are calling for him to be let go now, but site reasons back from several months? Strange.
3. Style/lack of
Yes, agreed completely, we have a lack of style and aren’t playing good football, whereas under SAF we had the total revolution of tiki taka didn’t we? So all in all, we can summise that your main gripe wasn’t even solely his fault, not only that but it was 3 months ago, you then go on to insist your opinion isn’t a knee-jerk reaction due to our current position, but your only reasoning was from events several weeks ago?
Daniel Taylor, Guardian: "Everton, without Moyes, have improved. Man Utd, with him, have deteriorated".
Says it all. One of the other issues here is the players have taken their foot off the gas post-SAF. Makes you question whether we would have seen this dip under a Mourinho/Klopp/Guardiola etc i.e. would the players be going through the motions or bursting a gut to show the new man something? I suspect under a manager with more of a proven track record, the "hangover" would be less - which is sad really.
That's actually true, regardless of Moyes trying to convince people that Martinez has simply "kept it going" he hasn't, he's improved them.
We we have a dressing room full of players who are serial winners, with things going the way they are, is it going to be easy for them to trust and believe in Moyes, who has never won anything?
Thats the point im making - i suspect under a Mou/Klopp/Pep we wouldnt be seeing this....simply down to the players desire. They've questioned Moyes since day one - whether they are aware of it or not.
From his questionable training methods, his negative attitude, his sly digs at the quality of players, him sacking the backroom staff when advised by SAF not to, playing the likes of Young, Valencia when they offer nothing, buying Fellaini - when is enough enough?
What more harm does he need to cause to United?
I hope we don't sign anyone in the transfer window - our squad is good enough -it sends out the wrong message and its why SAF hardly ever bought in January.
I just hope Moyes is gone by the end of the season.
That's not because of his personality though but because he doesn't have the trophies behind him. We knew this when we first got him, there shouldn't be a surprise here.
The upside is hopefully that he is likely to build far more for the long term and stay for much longer than the likes of Mourinho and Guardiola. Who, we might not (probably not) have been able to get anyway - which makes it a moot point.
Im not saying thats Moyes fault - but its happening as a result of his appointment.
Depends who you know/believe, but Jose wanted the job. He was available - and some on our board wanted him.
The sacking of the staff is the biggest feck up. Small club mentality ingrained in all of them.
Urgh. So much wrong with this.
Questionable training methods...?
Negative attitude - right winger playing at right back so that right back can be replaced by an attacking young winger?
Buying Fellaini - Improves our squad, we needed more depth at centre midfield it was just a ludicrous price. He wanted to get a higher quality midfielder as well by all accounts but failed.
Playing the likes of Young and Valencia - any reason to believe that any other manager wouldn't have played them?
Giggs and Neville? Small club mentality?
Plus, Rene wasn't sacked.
Daniel Taylor, Guardian: "Everton, without Moyes, have improved. Man Utd, with him, have deteriorated".
Says it all.
...
Giggs and Neville? Small club mentality?
Plus, Rene wasn't sacked.
Daniel Taylor, Guardian: "Everton, without Moyes, have improved. Man Utd, with him, have deteriorated".
Says it all.
Facts wise? All I know is that Charlton and Ferguson have admitted to admiring Moyes numerous times in the past, while Charlton has disregarded Mourinho as a likely candidate for the United job due to his behavior.
Everything else is pure rumour.
Does it? Or is is just a neat soundbite that offers little-to-no insight other than playing to the baying masses?
Does it? Or is is just a neat soundbite that offers little-to-no insight other than playing to the baying masses?
We have run of 5 games in which we need to perform. If we win those 5, things will look very different.
I think it's very likely he has no clue or no precise ideas.
We have run of 5 games in which we need to perform. If we win those 5, things will look very different. You can criticise Moyes but certain players need to step up or leave, simple as. You can't keep carrying players when they have no potential of ever repaying that faith with their performances.
Giggs and Neville? Small club mentality?
Plus, Rene wasn't sacked.
I asked this before the West Brom match and the responses I got were "It won't be so bad. We'll definitely be challenging for the league regardless"
So I ask again, if we lose against Newcastle, what will be the general opinion of Moyes then? Especially now he's been in the job going on 6 months.
Neville has absolutely no experience as a coach at this level along with the other half of Everton he brought with him. Dumping the staff was a cock up.
Heard this before e.g. before West Brom (H) etc.
Lets face it. If we finish fourth at this rate it will be 'like a trophy'. Never thought I'd ever claim something like that but, playing as we are, the relief we'd all feel to get into the Champions League would be massive. Nobody, surely, expects us to win any real silverwear this season with the squad looking devoid of both ideas and inspiration.
