Moyes So Far!

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He's starting to look like a beaten man, to me that's more worrying than our current form. If he loses trust in himself then we are in big trouble, he has to trust himself if he wants to make a difference.
I didn't watch the game last night, however going on previous games the team looks lost, playing players out of position, playing to other teams strengths instead of our own.

He needs to be backed, however I'm biting my lip at the moment.
 
The one thing that really irritates me about this entire scenario - is the picking of his lineups.

You pick Kagawa behing Rooney - spot on. Then you supplement this with the most 1 footed-static, out of form winger in Valencia. A clearly-not suited to the left side and not very creative Welbeck and a midfield consisting of Fellaini. And we wonder why we're not creating or scoring enough??

I don't think you could choose a worse "blend" - especially to get the best out of Kagawa, Rooney etc. (no wonder the latter is starting to kick out at ppl).

In my armchair, FM opinion, a lineup of

-------------Rooney

Nani--------Kagawa------Januzaj

-------Anderson-----Cleverley

would have, if nothing else, have enough movement to suit the front 4, especially Kagawa. We were overrun through the middle with Fellaini's "protection" anyway, so we might as well have given Everton a completely different threat to deal with - because they dealt with our wide players with ease, all night.
 
And you don't get overrun with that team on FM?
feck me what an unbalanced team you have there, you could have a defense of Kompany, Thiago Silva, Lahm & Alaba and you'd still get a shitloads of shots against you.
 
And you don't get overrun with that team on FM?
feck me what an unbalanced team you have there, you could have a defense of Kompany, Thiago Silva, Lahm & Alaba and you'd still get a shitloads of shots against you.

I agree with both of you. He's right that at least 'his' team above would provided something in an attacking sense. The difference when Nani and Januzaj came on was obvious, despite Moyes' inexplicably taking off Kagawa and Rafael and damaging the balance of the team. I think we would have been much more fluid with that front six... but leaky too. There wouldn't have been much difference though, as Giggs was non-existant at times yesterday and Fellaini faded in the second half.
 
I honestly dont see what signs are there to encourage Moyes being given time.

People want to give him time because they believe its the right thing to do. The argument is that you let a manager build a club - certainly thats that we let SAF do. The problem with that is when SAF took over, we hadnt won the league in 20 years and the club required rebuilding. Midfield aside, nothing needs building in our club now - its complete. All Moyes needs to concentrate on is the performances on the pitch - SAF built the club from its knees.

What signs are there that Moyes is doing anything with this team? Arguably, we are getting worse. He has made so many mistakes already (Fellaini, transfer window in general, negative mentality...). I cant see what he is trying to do - its some of the worst football ive seen in years. I would much rather see someone who is trying to put a style/identity on the team and suffer inconsistency than watch Moyes play hoof ball and still lose. Its fecking painful watching it.

So, back to original point. People want to give him time because they think thats what we should do - all im saying is that opinion is based on the manager we had previously who was in a completely different position.

Will he get time? Honestly dont know. I think he needs to go now if im honest and the club will regret not taking action if they indeed give more time. I just cant see how he is going to change his own personal habits/mindset. The issue is the impact on the commercial aspect of the club without being successful. If Moyes cant keep us at least competing for the title then the brand is impacted and subsequent share price reduction follows. The Glazers literally cannot afford for this to happen. Those who have seen the Glazer prospectus on the Bonds will know that they stated the replacement of SAF as one of the risks to the business model.

Forget the "champions" argument, how we've went from at least competing for the title to now aiming for Top 4 (and some fans thinking this is a success??) is beyond me. January will tell us a lot - if we spend a lot, then he has until October/November 2014. If we dont spend, i would envisage club taking action at the end of this season.
 
Forget the "champions" argument, how we've went from at least competing for the title to now aiming for Top 4 (and some fans thinking this is a success??) is beyond me. January will tell us a lot - if we spend a lot, then he has until October/November 2014. If we dont spend, i would envisage club taking action at the end of this season.


I think it might have something to do with losing the greatest manager of all time. Maybe.
 
I think it might have something to do with losing the greatest manager of all time. Maybe.

That being said, the likes of Chelsea and City go through managers like no tomorrow and they are always up there. My point being, if you have the right players, then surely a good manager will be able to make them players tick over? Are you saying that our players are not as good as we give them credit for, and it was only Fergie that could do what he did with them?
 
I dont think Moyes deserves the same time frame that Fergie had when he took over united. Fergie had to rebuild united from the bottom, including the academy etc...Moyes has inherited the champions and its all down to his mindset, if he cant accept that he has to go out with a winning attitude then we will be lucky to finish anywhere near the top. If he doesnt make changes in January then he has no idea how to run the club or what is missing, we are lacking the attacking force needed to score consistently and we are sleepy in defence...when we fall asleep and concede goals and vidic cant control Lukaku, you have problems. Welbeck should never be up front...just no...Moyes has a lot to do. I believe he can turn this around and he deserves more time, but if nothing happens in the summer and we dont have a good start to next season, I dont know what will happen.
 
I cant see what he is trying to do - its some of the worst football ive seen in years. I would much rather see someone who is trying to put a style/identity on the team and suffer inconsistency than watch Moyes play hoof ball and still lose. Its fecking painful watching it.


That is basically it. Moyes thinks his ideas will scale, they won't, no more than Hodgson's ideas scaled to Liverpool. Which is also why we had time for the difficult beginnings of Rafa and Rodgers but not for Roy. He wasn't implementing an ambitious and demanding new gameplan that was going to need time to get right - He was implementing the same old 'steady the ship' stuff he always had and it wasn't a project worth failing for in the short, middle or long term.
 
Just seen some of the comments he's been making about Everton. What a condescending tosser he (still) is.

"Everton fans see a direction that their team is going in but they need to remember I signed a lot of them"
"But to be fair to him Roberto is doing a really good job keeping things going at Everton"
"I told Roberto that I left such an organised team behind that they could play without a manager and still win"

You want a mirror for that, moyesy?

Haha what a cnut he is. Anyway I never wanted him here bit as long as he is here I'll try and support him.
 
I think it might have something to do with losing the greatest manager of all time. Maybe.

Other clubs change managers repeatedly without this level of impact.

Yes we lost the greatest of all time and there was going to be an impact. Did you honestly forsee us being this far off the pace? I think you'd be lying if you said you did.
 
That is basically it. Moyes thinks his ideas will scale, they won't, no more than Hodgson's ideas scaled to Liverpool. Which is also why we had time for the difficult beginnings of Rafa and Rodgers but not for Roy. He wasn't implementing an ambitious and demanding new gameplan that was going to need time to get right - He was implementing the same old 'steady the ship' stuff he always had and it wasn't a project worth failing for in the short, middle or long term.

This is one of my major gripes with Moyes. There is nothing progressive about what he is doing. Its mind numbing watching it.
 
We offer very little offensive threat by selecting players who will "do a job". Due to our lack of offensive threat, other teams are happy to push more players forward and we end up conceding a lot of shots. It's as simple as that. Let the other teams worry about us, which they won't if we have Valencia and Welbeck as two of our four "attackers".
 
I've seen it said a few times on here that Fergie left Moyes a flawed or weak squad, and that it was Fergie's managerial ability and mentality that won us the league. Frankly, I think that's a load of shit.

Our goalkeeper is one of the best in the league, with the potential to be one of the best in the world. Our defence contains three senior players who, you could argue, have all been the best in their respective positions at some point in their careers, with at least two of the three still being able to perform to a decent enough level. In addition to this, we've got a number of brilliant prospects in Rafael, Fabio, Smalling, Jones and Evans. We've got a wealth of wide players, and whilst one of them might not exactly be a fan favourite, there's no denying that our wide play has been a key part of our success. Up top we've got two of the league's best strikers, with one of the best poachers around as back up, and although he's not flavour of the month at the moment, Welbeck is certainly a talented player. Our one area of weakness is the midfield. We had Carrick, an aging and inconsistent Giggs, an out of form Cleverley, an out of shape Anderson, an out of position Kagawa, and an out of squad Fletcher prior to the arrival of Moyes.

Many people love to blame Moyes for the lack of strengthening in this area, but it has to be remembered that the guy in charge of our transfers also changed this summer. Given that Woodward and Moyes had never worked together before, it's understandable that it might not have run quite as smoothly as they liked first time around. In the summer, we apparently made bids for Thiago, Fabregas and Herrera. If Woodward is in charge of transfers, surely he is responsible for the failure to secure the signature of any of these players, or any others on our shortlist for the midfield. It was apparent quite early on that Moyes wanted to bring in Fellaini (and Baines), and on paper he was the sort of player many thought we needed. Again, Woodward is responsible for the transfer dealings, so again, surely the blame for a) failing to sign Baines, b) paying over the odds for Fellaini, and c) not securing the deal until the dying seconds of deadline day lies at his feet. The same applies to the failure to sign Coentrao.

I think Moyes has been given a bit of a raw deal so far, with it appearing that Woodward essentially fecked up every transfer we attempted to make, including the one that we actually managed to complete. Our performances this season have been far from ideal, but it seems grossly unfair to place all of the blame on Moyes. The players also have to take some of the responsibility, particularly those that have repeatedly looked uninterested game after game. Moyes obviously needs some time to build a proper working relationship with both the squad and Woodward, and that's not going to happen overnight. It's all well and good comparing this situation to the managerial merry-go-rounds at City and Chelsea, but we don't have the same amount of shit to throw at the wall as them, so we have to be a bit more careful and try and identify the bits that will definitely stick.
 
I look at Man Utd today and I see a demoralised side, full of fear, that does not believe in itself and does not seem to believe the manager can turn things around.

The players must take some blame for this but, at the same time, Moyes must do as well. Clearly he has yet to inspire them. They seem like they are going through the motions, trying to adapt to his plan of getting crosses in but doing it without any real confidence it will be a successful strategy.

If we are to continue with Moyes then the entire team will need to be rebuilt. Not because its a bad team, it won the league with 89 points last season, but because Moyes will need a squad of players who genuinely buy into him and his methods to be successful. I don't see that faith in him present in the current playing staff.
 
I'll feel more comfortable judging Moyes on his second season here. He either doesn't know how he wants us to play, which is unlikely, or doesn't have the necessary players at his disposal. Even though we'll likely have no Champions League football next season, we have to allow Moyes build his Manchester United side.

I think it's very likely he has no clue or no precise ideas.
 
I do think Fergie could've strengthened the squad before leaving it to a manager that obviously won't have as much pull as himself. There were areas (we were) crying out to be strengthened and Fergie must've known that. I realise he might have wanted to leave space for Moyes to have his own imprint with transfers but look how that has turned out so far

I hope for everyone's sake we buy well in Jan and everything turns out ok. I also hope Moyes doesn't blow more money someone else could spend better.
 
From his interviews he comes across as someone who is comfortable with defeats here and there, and seeing his team struggle to score goals (well he did struggle with these things for years). It's not the United way at all. You can blame the players, blame the manager, in truth it's probably both. The players have underperformed but questions have to be asked why? They don't want to play for Moyes? I mean surely Fergie wasn't the difference between champions and mid table. I just don't buy it. The players we have are very good, although we lack in some key areas we still have a very good squad. Fellaini has made us worse though. He is not going to succeed here.
 
I think it's very likely he has no clue or no precise ideas.

Correct. He's out of his depth. Of course, this isnt a surprise to many given how most of us thought replacing the most successful manager of all time with someone who has won nothing was a ridiculous move anyway.

Removing the full back room staff really was a silly move
 
I do think Fergie could've strengthened the squad before leaving it to a manager that obviously won't have as much pull as himself. There were areas (we were) crying out to be strengthened and Fergie must've known that. I realise he might have wanted to leave space for Moyes to have his own imprint with transfers but look how that has turned out so far

I hope for everyone's sake we buy well in Jan and everything turns out ok. I also hope Moyes doesn't blow more money someone else could spend better.

You are assuming he will be trusted with money.....
 
Removing the full back room staff really was a silly move


The problem with this, and with the attempted signings of two of his Everton players, is that is points to a guy who thinks his set up at Everton was good enough to win the league....if only he'd had a bit more money.

This really worries me.
 
The problem with this, and with the attempted signings of two of his Everton players, is that is points to a guy who thinks his set up at Everton was good enough to win the league....if only he'd had a bit more money.

This really worries me.

Totally agree mate. Bring the Everton manager, the Everton staff, Everton players.....are we surprised at the outcome? Nope. He has genuinely underestimated this job and now looks like a rabbit caught in headlights.
 
Correct. He's out of his depth. Of course, this isnt a surprise to many given how most of us thought replacing the most successful manager of all time with someone who has won nothing was a ridiculous move anyway.

Removing the full back room staff really was a silly move
This is a very important point, imo. Since it's a major overhaul that's being made, you need people who know how things work, and have the Fergie/United mentality. A harsh and abrupt transition from a winning period, it's not what's needed.
 
Totally agree mate. Bring the Everton manager, the Everton staff, Everton players.....are we surprised at the outcome? Nope. He has genuinely underestimated this job and now looks like a rabbit caught in headlights.

Especially after saying we want the best players. I'd rather we signed noone than Fellaini.
 
This is a very important point, imo. Since it's a major overhaul that's being made, you need people who know how things work, and have the Fergie/United mentality. A harsh and abrupt transition from a winning period, it's not what's needed.

I think its further proof he underestimated the job and "overestimated" his Everton. He's got every major decision wrong so far....with exception of the Rooney situation.
 
I made that exact point to KM during the summer window. He was not the right signing - and never was.

I know transfer fees are discussed constantly, and you get people saying they don't care how much we spend on a player but the board are not going to give Moyes a transfer kitty if this is the level of player the money's being spent on. They will just think, feck that. Bringing Everton with him has just taken us back a step as things are.
 
I think his squad management has been relatively poor so far as well. Obviously, with having such a small squad at Everton, this is to be expected as he's clearly learning on the job... but to start Valencia 3 games running, and start an unfit Welbeck 2 games on the spin? Like I said, it's still something he's got to grips with - and hopefully he can do it sooner rather than later.

Also, whilst I'm here... I'm a bit annoyed at that post-match interview to be honest. He just looks a bit sorry for himself and, dare I say, a bit Martin Jol esq... where's the fire?? I want him to get angry.
 
There's a bit of Hodgson-esque in his interviews: lowering expectation, a bit defeatist, or liking just being underdog. If those are mirroring his teamtalk/half-time talk, there's no way our players (who get used to Fergie's) could be aspired.

Can he change in a year or so? for United's sake, I hope he does.
 
Come Saturday if we lose we will be probably 8 points behind 4th.

I think at that stage it would be a much bigger risk to keep Moyes than replace him. You cant defend a manager who takes a team that won the league by March the season before to having them almost out of the race for the top 4 by early December. He is clearly out of his depth at this stage.
 
I just hope he knows how lucky he is to be at this club. At many other top clubs he would've been a goner already.
 
Come Saturday if we lose we will be probably 8 points behind 4th.

I think at that stage it would be a much bigger risk to keep Moyes than replace him. You cant defend a manager who takes a team that won the league by March the season before to having them almost out of the race for the top 4 by early December. He is clearly out of his depth at this stage.

The crazy thing is that losing vs Newcastle doesn't seem "unlikely". We watch the Utd matches without any confidence at all.
 
Come Saturday if we lose we will be probably 8 points behind 4th.

I think at that stage it would be a much bigger risk to keep Moyes than replace him. You cant defend a manager who takes a team that won the league by March the season before to having them almost out of the race for the top 4 by early December. He is clearly out of his depth at this stage.

So what would you do?
 
So, whats the consensus? Give him more time? I wouldnt.

I cant see it turning round at the weekend - it will be more of the same.
 
I just hope he knows how lucky he is to be at this club. At many other top clubs he would've been a goner already.

Pretty much in every top club he would have been sacked already. Scolari got sacked for less on Chelsea. Moratti would have sacked him already 3 times. Real, of course. Even teams who usually manage these things better like Juve or Bayern have been ruthless on the past with managers when they had horror spells.
 
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