Again, completely agree. A huge mistake - and one Moyes is getting away with.
Moyes So Far!
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Again, completely agree. A huge mistake - and one Moyes is getting away with.
We've bungled easier groups in the past under Ferguson (the Basel fiasco comes to mind). Is it so hard to give Moyes credit for breezing through the CL group stage, when some people predicted he would find it hard adapting to European competition?
I'm encouraged by the improvement in Moyes so far. He's learned to be more positive. He's trying different combinations in attack. I don't expect it to click instantly, but we've always been a better team in the second half of the season. Hopefully more players can click back into form.
It should challenge in some capacity, but if you're ten points off, that'd be fair enough.
It's not quite as simple as looking at positions - the reality is that the most important part of any pitch is the midfield, and that's your biggest weakness. Having Wilfried Zaha in reserve isn't going to offset that.
It's not quite as simple as looking at positions - the reality is that the most important part of any pitch is the midfield, and that's your biggest weakness. Having Wilfried Zaha in reserve isn't going to offset that.
It's comfortably good enough to challenge. Fergie was a great manager but not a miracle worker. He didn't make a crap squad great
Fair enough? We finished with 89 points last season. Let's see if arsenal get close to that this season.
We've done great in Europe, don't get me wrong, it's just that it wasn't really an extra-ordinarily tough group.
Arsenal aren't relevant to this discussion.
The point is that Ferguson dragged out a great level of performance from those players. There are some players who are really getting beyond their best and Moyes is having to deal with that.
Players like Evra and Ferdinand are really struggling to play like top 4 players now, whilst even players like Vidic and Carrick are on the wane.
Thats a fair point. Perhaps from that aspect he does deserve credit. I just dont think the group was tough.
As for being encouraged, ive not seen any evidence of that....but im a pessimistic sod so may just be me!
This. You don't go from 89 points to 10+ points behind champions in a year unless you screw up massively. You may go down to 80 points or something as players are getting older, off form, etc. but anything less would be poor. When was the last time we failed to meet 80 points border?
Arsenal are relevant. If everyone thinks they're so great right now and united have such a poor squad, let's see them beat our points tally of last season. Last season is just as relevant to the squads quality as not even had a season with so much change is. It's a fine squad. Teams just about capable of challenging don't finish with that many points. My guess is our team of last season will be more comfortable champions than anyone, which tells you it's quality.
Yep. And forget screwing up, I understand things have started poor for Moyes, but let's not mask our poor start by suddenly claiming the comfortable champions of last year are now a bunch of average footballers fergie miraculously played football for and made great.
It's basically the same squad as this season with a different, yet still competent manager.
The players are struggling to perform to the same standards as before - it looks a tired team. That's reality. Blaming Moyes is a bit harsh I find.
Thats a fair point. Perhaps from that aspect he does deserve credit. I just dont think the group was tough.
As for being encouraged, ive not seen any evidence of that....but im a pessimistic sod so may just be me!
It is frustrating watching us draw with the likes of Cardiff, don't get me wrong. The lack of reinforcements in the summer transfer window has tied his hand to some extent, and the performances of RVP, Carrick and Rio have dropped from last season. The buck ultimately stops with the manager though, so he deserves criticism.
Okay, I'll take the rose tinted glasses off.
Goalkeeping wise, we're absolutely fine. de Gea is an extraordinary talent.
With the full-backs, we're good. Nothing spectacular though. Rafael is up there with the top three right backs in the league I'd say. He doesn't compare to the likes of Lahm or Alves though. Evra is okay, can have his good days, can have his bad days. We'll get away with playing Buttner and Fabio against weaker opposition. Smalling and Jones are better suited to other positions.
Centre-backs, yeah we're nicely stacked. Vidic is our best defender and only world class one, but he's in and out with injuries. Evans has developed into a fine defender, no issues there. We'll get away with playing Rio against weaker opposition. Smalling will be top quality once he cements himself into the team, likewise for Jones.
Our wingers are okay, they haven't produced in a long, long time though really. They were poor last season too. Januzaj isn't a winger, and he's a kid so can't be expected to produce the goods every week. Young is Young, we can get away with playing him against weaker opposition. Nani can be great, can be anonymous. Valencia is inconsistent also.
Midfield, we're average. Carrick is great, he's not in the top bracket of centre midfielders in the league though. Moyes doesn't seem to think Anderson is good enough for us, and he'd be correct. Cleverley is average, he offers little. Fellaini has yet to find his feet, and it remains to be seen if he will. Giggs can be amazing, and can be amazingly poor. Expected from a forty year old though, we can't be relying on someone that age.
Up top is were we are strongest, best in the league and on par with anyone else in the world in terms of options.
We're certainly capable of challenging and should be, but we the simple fact remains we've lost the single most important factor in winning the league last season.
While I do think Moyes hasn't done well so far my point is not about putting him down. It's about saying something that has been proven just awhile back - that this is a quality squad of footballers. Your low opinion of this squad seems to be based on this seasons form during a season of huge change. It's clearly a quality squad, it's the current champions who walked the league too.
The squad is good (bar the midfield) but the first team isn't as strong as some of our rivals.
What exactly is our first team? I don't think we've had a first team since '08.
Or we could suspend judgement. How about that for a concept? How about giving the man a chance to put his own stamp on Alex Ferguson's squad. Mad idea? Unreasonable?
Madness! He was by three miles the best central midfielder in the league last season and probably even more important than Van Persie in our title campaign. But apparently he now isn't in the top bracket center midfielders in the league. Sometimes I think that people can't remember more than the last week.
Who are thise midfielders that are in the top bracket then Mr. Genius?
Carrick's great as I said, he's no match winner though, like say Yaya Touré for example. Mr. Genius.
I didn't want to make a new thread about this, but spot on. Nowadays the chopping and changing does little to help players settle in.
Why? We judged Ferguson's decisions at different points too, he wasn't void of that either. I think it's fair to discuss what manager is doing right or wrong even mid-season.
If we fail to finish in a respectable position with this team then he shouldn't be allowed to put his stamp on the team anymore. It could years to recover from wrong manager putting his stamp on the team, ask Liverpool about their time post Hodgson and Dalglish.
Comparing Carrick to other PL midfielders can give a false impression of his quality as there are so few outstanding midfielders in the country at the moment. Gerrard and Lampard used to operate at a much higher level than Carrick though, and the likes of Ramsey (now) and Wilshere (especially) have the potential to be much better than Carrick too. I'd also imagine that most neutral fans would take Yaya Toure over Carrick.
If we compare Carrick to other midfielders in Europe we see that there's quite a few better than him. You're right that he was arguably more important than RvP last season but that says mire about our other options in cm, I think.
A final judgment is formed after a decent period but that too doesn't just pop out of ones backside, but is based on and ongoing judgment of ones performance based on events as they happen. I didn't suddenly form the opinion that one day that vidic was the best cente back in the world. I first thought he showed immense potential, then impressed me a lot, then impressed me some more and finally I was convinced that he was an outstanding defender. It's pretty how everyone judges every player and manager. Or do you have absolutely no opinion on anything until a long gestation period after which all the cards are laid out infront of you and it's pretty much obvious and clear to everyone what the answer is?
They say that when you are little you believe that football results and trophies are won by the players, then when youre a teenager you think its all down to the managers, and then when youre an adult you find out its all down to the chairman and the backroom staff.
Why are people who I see post a lot and know are intelligent not seeing that the change in manager is a far bigger problem than the quality of the players?
You have a good squad with some excellent players, but many players were made to look better than they actually are because of SAF's managerial genius. The same thing that made some faiely decent or average players look like world beaters under Jose. Great managers do great things, its not a shocker.
If you started the season with the mindset that you won the league at a canter last season, therefore you should at least challenge this season you were always going to end up bemused, and frankly its a little naive to think like that. Moyes is a good manager and will do well given time, but its time hes unlikely to get judging by many on here.
SAF gave the team that little extra, that little bit that means when playing badly you would win. Obviously its a bit hypothetical but I would be fairly confident under SAF the team would have won the games vs Southampton and Cardiff and at very least not lost to WBA. This isnt a knock at Moyes, but hes succeding the best manager of all time(imo) anyone who thinks he will instantly be able to get the same out of the team needs a bit more football knowledge in their tank.
Why are people who I see post a lot and know are intelligent not seeing that the change in manager is a far bigger problem than the quality of the players?
You have a good squad with some excellent players, but many players were made to look better than they actually are because of SAF's managerial genius. The same thing that made some faiely decent or average players look like world beaters under Jose. Great managers do great things, its not a shocker.
If you started the season with the mindset that you won the league at a canter last season, therefore you should at least challenge this season you were always going to end up bemused, and frankly its a little naive to think like that. Moyes is a good manager and will do well given time, but its time hes unlikely to get judging by many on here.
SAF gave the team that little extra, that little bit that means when playing badly you would win. Obviously its a bit hypothetical but I would be fairly confident under SAF the team would have won the games vs Southampton and Cardiff and at very least not lost to WBA. This isnt a knock at Moyes, but hes succeding the best manager of all time(imo) anyone who thinks he will instantly be able to get the same out of the team needs a bit more football knowledge in their tank.
Imagine that a Chelsea fan has spoken more sense than most in a Moyes thread.
So, what would you have thought if Chelsea, having won the European Cup and Europa League on the bounce suddenly appointed David Moyes instead of hiring Jose?
Moyes will get time from the Board, they signalled that with the contract length.
Moyes was always going to be a divisive appointment on here as many lusted after a Mourinho, Guardiola or another in vogue foreign manager and were disappointed he was appointed and will find fault with anything.
Moyes was always going to be a divisive appointment on here as many lusted after a Mourinho, Guardiola or another in vogue foreign manager and were disappointed he was appointed and will find fault with anything.
That's the thing, I stopped worrying when I realised this. Moyes ain't going anywhere, he'll be given the time to prove he's a good manager. Can he become a great manager? No doubt in my mind. He's driven, has time and the backing of the board and owners.
Little point in constant criticism of a manager who's sticking around for the foreseeable future.
Well if you read whatever thread it was that discussed Moyes as an option for us before we even had an inkling Jose was returning I said something along the lines of 'I like Moyes and would not want him to become Chelsea manager because he is a long term manager and he would be coming into a set up that doesnt have the patience for longtermists of Moyes' mold. I wouldnt want him to ruin his managerial record us by getting sacked halfway through the season when he didnt hit the ground running.'
Exactly, Chelsea's management merry go round, which undoubtedly works for them, wouldn't have suited Moyes.
You said that he is not in the top bracket of central midfielder in EPL which is a total nonsense. He has been arguably the best central midfielder in EPL for around three years now, and was by far the best CMF last season.
No he is not a match winner, I agree. Neither is Xavi though and he has been one of the best central midfielders of all time. Toure can give better performances than Carrick, but how often does he give those performances? He is very inconsistent while on the other side Carrick is probably the most consistent player in the league. Despite he has been playing in a midfield two with an average partner (be him Cleverley, Ando or Jones) we still did well.
Wilshere has done nothing to prove that he will be a better player than Carrick. Ramsey is operating at a higher level, but let's see how much this goes on.
If you look at midfielders in Europe (last season), I think that only Vidal, Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Gundogan and possibly Busquets have been better than him. Alonso and Xavi despite their names weren't better than Carrick last season. Neither was Pirlo. So even at worst case he was in top 10 of Europe last season.
I was a bit harsh on Carrick, he's in the top bracket of centre midfielders in the league. But not in world football, okay?
He hasn't been charismatic enough to be one of the best midfielders in the world, but his performances last season were brilliant and he would have been comfortably in top 5 - top 10 midfielders in Europe last season. We are the only big team who play a midfield two and even worse, our second midfielder wouldn't hope that he could even get in the bench of the most of European giants. Yet still, we did ok last season and Carrick while did excellent defensively was also our main playmaker.
Those managers were in vogue for a reason though. They had proven they were top quality managers, Moyes hadn't. Of course the majority wanted someone like Guardiola or Mourinho, why wouldn't they? The vast majority of football fans rate Guardiola and Mourinho above Moyes, it would have been strange if our fans had a radically different opinion. Having doubts over Moyes is only logical.
That said, I'm relatively happy with Moyes so far. If we're close to the leaders by January I'll be very confident we're gonna have a good season. In that case, Moyes will definitely be here for a few seasons at least. Certainly long enough to make the team his own.
I think Wilshere has certainly shown enough to suggest he has the potential to be better than Carrick, he's a far more talented player. I have doubts over whether Ramsey can maintain this form too but it'd be unfair to say he couldn't go on to be better than Carrick as well.
You shouldn't base your judgement on Carrick on last year's form alone, that was the peak of his career while others weren't as good as they had previously been. You'd get a more accurate view if you looked at how they played over three or four seasons.
In reality Carrick is probably a third tier midfielder by world standards. He obviously isn't near the level the likes of Xavi and Iniesta were at their best. He's also a level below players like Schweinsteiger, Pirlo, Alonso, Vidal, Busquets etc. Or at least he is if we look beyond last year's form alone.
Very artful that Bob. You can take your bloody tongue out of your cheek now.
No im being 100% honest here. I would tell you if I was joking, eventually.
I think it says a lot about many posters on here that the Chelsea fan sounds like a better Manchester United supporter than most.
tbf I'd rather have Carrick than Yaya in the team any day of the week.
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