Moyes So Far!

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More than happy with top 4? We won the league with 5 games to spare last season and now you'll be happy with mere 4th?
I'd be happy with 4th this season, not more than happy but happy.
You have to try and forget about last season and stop using it as an example, last season we had Sir Alex, arguably the greatest manager ever, this season we have David Moyes, that's a hell of a change.
We have to give him time to build a new team, his team, if you focus too much on the past it will stop you moving forward.
 
More than happy with top 4? We won the league with 5 games to spare last season and now you'll be happy with mere 4th?

I got really pissed off when people were lowering their expectations before the season started, saying that it's Moyes who needs to raise his expectations/standards to fit the club, not us lower ours, but as this season has gone on, subconsciously mine have been lowered. I'm not expecting anything more than 4th at this point. Staying in the CL is the priority imo.
 
People had minimum expectations about where we would finish the season but the season isnt even half finished. Nobody laid out preconditions for where we should be by the start of December. For those who thought coming third would be reasonable this season, we are still on course to do that. We could quite easily do better than that, Arsenal are the only ones really stretching out their lead and who would bet against them choking in coming weeks?

It is too simplistic to compare our stats for 13 games with previous seasons as well because we've had quite a tough start in terms of opposition, as well as with the manager change.
 
People had minimum expectations about where we would finish the season but the season isnt even half finished. Nobody laid out preconditions for where we should be by the start of December. For those who thought coming third would be reasonable this season, we are still on course to do that. We could quite easily do better than that, Arsenal are the only ones really stretching out their lead and who would bet against them choking in coming weeks?

It is too simplistic to compare our stats for 13 games with previous seasons as well because we've had quite a tough start in terms of opposition, as well as with the manager change.

If you read my post again you'll see I've made that point. If you compare stats after 13 games you'll find a variety of different league positions/outcomes...
 
People had minimum expectations about where we would finish the season but the season isnt even half finished. Nobody laid out preconditions for where we should be by the start of December. For those who thought coming third would be reasonable this season, we are still on course to do that. We could quite easily do better than that, Arsenal are the only ones really stretching out their lead and who would bet against them choking in coming weeks?

It is too simplistic to compare our stats for 13 games with previous seasons as well because we've had quite a tough start in terms of opposition, as well as with the manager change.

Whilst I agree with your rational thinking the problem is we are not really picking up the wins when playing poorly, as opposed to last season. We need wins against Everton, Newcastle and Villa to put the pressure on Arsenal and the chasing pack. If we can't pick up victories in at least two of those games then we arguably leave ourselves too much to do in the second half of the season. Chelsea and Arsenal are grinding out victories, City are looking formidable and full of confidence....we look a bit toothless to be honest. Van Persie back and firing should help with that.
 
I got really pissed off when people were lowering their expectations before the season started, saying that it's Moyes who needs to raise his expectations/standards to fit the club, not us lower ours, but as this season has gone on, subconsciously mine have been lowered. I'm not expecting anything more than 4th at this point. Staying in the CL is the priority imo.

What bothers me is that people are trying to tell everyone that our team isn't good and 4th is adequate. It isn't, it's the same side that won the league at a canter last season with 89 points and would have knocked out Real Madrid if it hadn't been for referee's blunder.
 
Statistics and averages are great aren't they.

If I'm sat with my head in the oven and my arse in the fridge I suppose, on average, I'm a nice cosy temperature.
 
Whilst I agree with your rational thinking the problem is we are not really picking up the wins when playing poorly, as opposed to last season. We need wins against Everton, Newcastle and Villa to put the pressure on Arsenal and the chasing pack. If we can't pick up victories in at least two of those games then we arguably leave ourselves too much to do in the second half of the season. Chelsea and Arsenal are grinding out victories, City are looking formidable and full of confidence....we look a bit toothless to be honest. Van Persie back and firing should help with that.


17 goals conceded as well. We have been poor at both ends.

Chelsea are +13,Arsenal+17,City+25 in the GD.
 
Our position in the table is not great of course but if you look at more recent form it is pretty reasonable. The Cardiff result was a massive disappointment but these things happen and it was ever thus. A point away at WHL is a very reasonable result. We are unbeaten for a while now. Honestly, I really think things are moving in the right direction.
 
I just cant get my head around the performances this season. That is my biggest issue

Jonny Evans said that it will take time before our team adjust to the tactical/style of play changes in matches but, either the tactics/style of play are shit or, our players are absolute brain dead morons!

I don't see Munich, Chelsea, Everton, also with new managers, struggling with a new style and new tactics
 
What bothers me is that people are trying to tell everyone that our team isn't good and 4th is adequate. It isn't, it's the same side that won the league at a canter last season with 89 points and would have knocked out Real Madrid if it hadn't been for referee's blunder.

But we don't have the same manager. Does that not count for something? In my book a top 4 finish for Moyes in his first year is adequate. Failure to qualify for the CL would be disasterous.
 
Our position in the table is not great of course but if you look at more recent form it is pretty reasonable. The Cardiff result was a massive disappointment but these things happen and it was ever thus. A point away at WHL is a very reasonable result. We are unbeaten for a while now. Honestly, I really think things are moving in the right direction.

Result aside - performance was poor....again, just life Cardiff away. City have been shocking away from home but their performance level has saw them escape criticism and many believe they will win the league. Our results and performances have been extremely poor.
 
But we don't have the same manager. Does that not count for something? In my book a top 4 finish for Moyes in his first year is adequate. Failure to qualify for the CL would be disasterous.

Then we should look for a capable manager if Moyes cannot achieve anything with this squad.
 
It is too simplistic to compare our stats for 13 games with previous seasons as well because we've had quite a tough start in terms of opposition, as well as with the manager change.

We're 10 points off the pace from the same fixtures last season. 10 points! We would lead the table if we performed to a similar level.
 
Result aside - performance was poor....again, just life Cardiff away. City have been shocking away from home but their performance level has saw them escape criticism and many believe they will win the league. Our results and performances have been extremely poor.


The performance was fine, especially given we were missing at least 2/3 of our best players. The only issue was the lack of chances created despite being in good positions. It was a completely different performance to Cardiff, not sure why you'd try and compare the two?

And the last sentence shows a clear bias..we've played very well in some games and comfortably qualified out of a group many saw as being difficult. It's the inconsistency that has been the main issue performance wise, and results in the league could easily have been better if chances were taken/less errors made at the back.
 
David Moyes has paid tribute to Roberto Martinez as he gets ready to face Everton for the first time since leaving Goodison Park.

Manchester United boss Moyes said: "He is doing a very good job. He has very good players there. I always told them they could play without a manager because they are very well organised. But Roberto is doing a really good job keeping it going."

Slightly weird thing to say... not exactly a glowing endorsement for Martinez, but it's also playing down himself and his own achievements at Everton... unless I'm reading it the wrong way of course.
 
Slightly weird thing to say... not exactly a glowing endorsement for Martinez, but it's also playing down himself and his own achievements at Everton... unless I'm reading it the wrong way of course.

Agreed, it seems like a backhanded dig. It doesnt do down his own achievements either, he is not saying they can play without a manager because they are great players, but because they are well organised. So who organised them? Moyes did.
 
off you go. last time i looked things are 'achieved' around April/May.

It's not unthinkable that we'll end up better off than we are now in May but we can only judge a manager by his present record and it's not very flattering. Lowering our expectations because of it isn't the way to go though, if Moyes cannot get this team to finish within touching distance off the top side at least then he's probably not cut out for this job.
 
It's not unthinkable that we'll end up better off than we are now in May but we can only judge a manager by his present record and it's not very flattering. Lowering our expectations because of it isn't the way to go though, if Moyes cannot get this team to finish within touching distance off the top side at least then he's probably not cut out for this job.

You're talking as though our current position is down to Moyes alone. Some players have underperformed whilst others are probably no longer good enough. This squad isn't as great as you seem to think, we all know that.

Before you come back with 'he's the manager, it's his job to get them to perform', I think he has already shown that he can do that with the way he's got Rooney playing. Fergie didn't have him performing this well for the last few years.
 
Agreed, it seems like a backhanded dig. It doesnt do down his own achievements either, he is not saying they can play without a manager because they are great players, but because they are well organised. So who organised them? Moyes did.

You're probably right... though that's a contradiction surely?!
 
Surely there can't be a single person who's happy with the work he's done so far? Obviously the hope is for our situation to improve and before the past two games it looked like we were back to our resilient best instead we've gone backwards rather quickly since then. Drawing back to back games while the league leaders win back to back, if this pattern continues its going to be hard for us to have a proper run to the title. Those that'll be happy with a top 4 spot have lost it, this is Man United we're talking about. Not spurs, we don't compete for top 4 spots, we're guaranteed it every season.

Him and Woodward had a mare of a transfer window, one which was very pivotal in all honesty. He did nothing to improve the playing staff and nothing on the field suggests he's improved the football we're playing either. We're at this moment in time relying on the individual qualities of our footballers to win us points rather than any high level of quality team play.

The other thing is apart from rooney he simply isn't getting the best out of any other player in the squad. Everyone has seemingly regressed since he's been here which is one of the main reasons we're struggling to string together consistent high level performances. Our players are quite clearly better than what we've seen, then why aren't they showing it? What isn't he doing?

This has been a poor start by all accounts. Nothing more nothing less, so its pretty much impossible to be happy about his performance since coming in. No point in us acting blind to it, he so far hasn't done well enough and hopefully he'll improve.
 
To be honest the amount of people who didn't expect this baffles me, especially when they use the 'this team are the champions' argument. I think its something people may have said they expected but underneath actually thought they would still carry on as they were.
We could have carried on as we were, even improved in certain areas. When Fergie retired my thoughts were maybe we'll get a manager that didn't have a complete blind spot to how shit our midfield is and could fix it accordingly, maybe we'll get a manager that could get us playing good football for the first time in years and have us passing the ball like a top team, maybe we'll get a manager who likes his players to press the opposition. So far it looks like we got none of these things unfortunately.
 
The performance was fine, especially given we were missing at least 2/3 of our best players. The only issue was the lack of chances created despite being in good positions. It was a completely different performance to Cardiff, not sure why you'd try and compare the two?

And the last sentence shows a clear bias..we've played very well in some games and comfortably qualified out of a group many saw as being difficult. It's the inconsistency that has been the main issue performance wise, and results in the league could easily have been better if chances were taken/less errors made at the back.

I do not see how it shows bias at all so no idea where you get that. Results and performances have been poor - its a statement of fact. We have not demonstrated any consistency at all. To be honest, your last paragraph is all coulda, woulda, shoulda....its a game so of course there are things that could have turned out differently. We could have performed better....we havent.

The 2 performances were identical - complete inability to control the middle of the park which resulted in us dropping deeper and deeper as each minute passed. I cant see how any Utd fan would be happy with the performance - yes a point at WHL is not a bad point to get but a better performance in the middle of the park would have saw us take all 3. Instead, we had a guy who didnt know how to pass forward (Cleverley) and another who was almost playing as an extra centre half (Jones) by the end of the game given how deep we had dropped.

Anyhoo, its all opinions pal. If you are happy with the performances right now then fair do's, im not.

PS. People saw that as a difficult CL Group? Really?
 
It's not unthinkable that we'll end up better off than we are now in May but we can only judge a manager by his present record and it's not very flattering. Lowering our expectations because of it isn't the way to go though, if Moyes cannot get this team to finish within touching distance off the top side at least then he's probably not cut out for this job.

Absolutely spot on.
 
He's getting a lot of stick for irrelevant shit though, I will say that. One being his press conferences, interviews or 'demeanor'. I keep reading shit like "looking at him on the touchline, he doesn't strike me as a winner", "he looks nervous, like the jobs too big", and "he's not inspiring confidence with his words in the media". Who gives a shit and who the feck made you cnuts a bunch of body language and psychological experts? Stop reading into every little thing and focus on the facts - the facts are the team is shit on the pitch and results are poor because of that, is that not enough to complain about without fixating on intangible crap?

The other being people making stuff up about us being defensive or not trying to score. Spurs being a perfect example. We made 3 attacking subs, and he got accused of trying to hold out for the draw. Against Cardiff, apparently it was Moyes who instructed them not to get the 3rd goal, despite Welbeck, for example, missing a clear chance to score the 3rd goal at 2-1.

My main gripes are the 1) transfers - not even that we fecked up in not getting our targets, more that our targets were Fellaini and Baines. He found a system that worked at Everton (to get them to upper midtable) and is beyond desperate to try and replicate that here. 2nd being team selections in general. 3rd being whatever we're doing on the training pitch clearly isn't focusing on us improving our passing, interplay, creativity, and having us playing as a more cohesive unit, and if we are, it's not working.
 
I do not see how it shows bias at all so no idea where you get that. Results and performances have been poor - its a statement of fact. We have not demonstrated any consistency at all. To be honest, your last paragraph is all coulda, woulda, shoulda....its a game so of course there are things that could have turned out differently. We could have performed better....we havent.

The 2 performances were identical - complete inability to control the middle of the park which resulted in us dropping deeper and deeper as each minute passed. I cant see how any Utd fan would be happy with the performance - yes a point at WHL is not a bad point to get but a better performance in the middle of the park would have saw us take all 3. Instead, we had a guy who didnt know how to pass forward (Cleverley) and another who was almost playing as an extra centre half (Jones) by the end of the game given how deep we had dropped.

Anyhoo, its all opinions pal. If you are happy with the performances right now then fair do's, im not.

PS. People saw that as a difficult CL Group? Really?


Well you've conveniently summed up all our performances as 'poor' which is obviously wrong.

No, against Spurs we played with purpose and the passing was far better then Cardiff when we only started playing when Giggs came on. I think most people would accept without Carrick we'd struggle in midfield against Spurs (even with him) but we actually controlled the game for the middle period and were well on top without creating sufficient chances.

This whole myth about Cleverley not knowing how to pass forward is another stupid CAF myth.

People are never happy with performances on here. Yes, I'd prefer us to play more attractively but it's not been half as bad as you doom and gloomers want to make out.

And yes, many people did think it was a tricky group with no 'lesser' team in it. The fact that we've qualified so easily means people seem to be trying to revise history to not give credit to Moyes.
 
There is a Moyes agenda in here, simple as.

I can tell because I've one against Fellaini in his thread.
 
Our team:

Goalkeepers - possibly the best goalkeeper in the world and the best young goalkeeper around plus a very solid player in Lindegaard as back up.

Full backs - one of the best right backs around in Rafael and a very competent left back in Evra, good back-up in Fabio and an adequate cover in Smalling and Jones.

Centre halves - brilliant selection, Vidic is top class, Evans, Jones and Smalling are all very good and Ferdinand can occasionally put in a shift too.

Wingers - brilliant talent in Januzaj, a decent player in Valencia, inconsistent Nani who can be very good at times and one of the best young English footballers in Zaha. Young as 3rd/4th choice is pretty good too.

Midfield - one of the best midfielders in the league in Carrick, not much else but Giggs can occasionally play well too, Cleverley apart from the last few games is generally reliable, Jones has improved a lot in midfield. Fellaini was Moyes' £27m signing, if he doesn't feel that he's good enough then choice was simple. Anderson, I'm not sure what's even happening with him.

Forwards - the best forward in the league in van Persie, a great number 10 in Rooney with more than adequate covers in the likes of Kagawa, Welbeck and Hernandez. Brilliant choice.

Do people genuinely feel that this side is incapable of challenging?
 
Well you've conveniently summed up all our performances as 'poor' which is obviously wrong.

No, against Spurs we played with purpose and the passing was far better then Cardiff when we only started playing when Giggs came on. I think most people would accept without Carrick we'd struggle in midfield against Spurs (even with him) but we actually controlled the game for the middle period and were well on top without creating sufficient chances.

This whole myth about Cleverley not knowing how to pass forward is another stupid CAF myth.

People are never happy with performances on here. Yes, I'd prefer us to play more attractively but it's not been half as bad as you doom and gloomers want to make out.

And yes, many people did think it was a tricky group with no 'lesser' team in it. The fact that we've qualified so easily means people seem to be trying to revise history to not give credit to Moyes.

Wait just a second pal, ive not said every game...but on the whole, we've been consistently poor. I dont think anyone can debate that. We just havent hit form. Weve seen a couple of games (leverkusen away etc) where its been good.

Cleverley CAF myth - seriously? He is so hesitant on the ball its scary. Most likely down to the crowd getting on his back and it damaging confidence. Difficult one.

I just completely disagree that was a difficult group for us....Madrid, Juventus, Galatasaray - thats a difficult group. Arsenal, Marseile, Dortmund, Napoli - thats a tough group.
 
He's getting a lot of stick for irrelevant shit though, I will say that. One being his press conferences, interviews or 'demeanor'. I keep reading shit like "looking at him on the touchline, he doesn't strike me as a winner", "he looks nervous, like the jobs too big", and "he's not inspiring confidence with his words in the media". Who gives a shit and who the feck made you cnuts a bunch of body language and psychological experts? Stop reading into every little thing and focus on the facts - the facts are the team is shit on the pitch and results are poor because of that, is that not enough to complain about without fixating on intangible crap?

The other being people making stuff up about us being defensive or not trying to score. Spurs being a perfect example. We made 3 attacking subs, and he got accused of trying to hold out for the draw. Against Cardiff, apparently it was Moyes who instructed them not to get the 3rd goal, despite Welbeck, for example, missing a clear chance to score the 3rd goal at 2-1.

My main gripes are the 1) transfers - not even that we fecked up in not getting our targets, more that our targets were Fellaini and Baines. He found a system that worked at Everton (to get them to upper midtable) and is beyond desperate to try and replicate that here. 2nd being team selections in general. 3rd being whatever we're doing on the training pitch clearly isn't focusing on us improving our passing, interplay, creativity, and having us playing as a more cohesive unit, and if we are, it's not working.

That I agree with. Results are ultimately all that should be taken into consideration here, all the circumstances are minor issues.
 
Our team:

Goalkeepers - possibly the best goalkeeper in the world and the best young goalkeeper around plus a very solid player in Lindegaard as back up.

Full backs - one of the best right backs around in Rafael and a very competent left back in Evra, good back-up in Fabio and an adequate cover in Smalling and Jones.

Centre halves - brilliant selection, Vidic is top class, Evans, Jones and Smalling are all very good and Ferdinand can occasionally put in a shift too.

Wingers - brilliant talent in Januzaj, a decent player in Valencia, inconsistent Nani who can be very good at times and one of the best young English footballers in Zaha. Young as 3rd/4th choice is pretty good too.

Midfield - one of the best midfielders in the league in Carrick, not much else but Giggs can occasionally play well too, Cleverley apart from the last few games is generally reliable, Jones has improved a lot in midfield. Fellaini was Moyes' £27m signing, if he doesn't feel that he's good enough then choice was simple. Anderson, I'm not sure what's even happening with him.

Forwards - the best forward in the league in van Persie, a great number 10 in Rooney with more than adequate covers in the likes of Kagawa, Welbeck and Hernandez. Brilliant choice.

Do people genuinely feel that this side is incapable of challenging?

I agree....but that midfield issue is one hell of a black hole in our team particularly with Carrick out injured.
 
Wait just a second pal, ive not said every game...but on the whole, we've been consistently poor. I dont think anyone can debate that. We just havent hit form. Weve seen a couple of games (leverkusen away etc) where its been good.

Cleverley CAF myth - seriously? He is so hesitant on the ball its scary. Most likely down to the crowd getting on his back and it damaging confidence. Difficult one.

I just completely disagree that was a difficult group for us....Madrid, Juventus, Galatasaray - thats a difficult group. Arsenal, Marseile, Dortmund, Napoli - thats a tough group.

It looked tricky when it was drawn but Sociedad haven't shown up (have they got any points aside from 0-0 against us?) and Leverkusen turned out to be worse than we imagined. Shakhtar were the only side that played reasonably well against us, I think whoever qualifies from 2nd place in this group will be knocked out immediately in the next round though.
 
He's getting a lot of stick for irrelevant shit though, I will say that. One being his press conferences, interviews or 'demeanor'. I keep reading shit like "looking at him on the touchline, he doesn't strike me as a winner", "he looks nervous, like the jobs too big", and "he's not inspiring confidence with his words in the media". Who gives a shit and who the feck made you cnuts a bunch of body language and psychological experts? Stop reading into every little thing and focus on the facts - the facts are the team is shit on the pitch and results are poor because of that, is that not enough to complain about without fixating on intangible crap?

The other being people making stuff up about us being defensive or not trying to score. Spurs being a perfect example. We made 3 attacking subs, and he got accused of trying to hold out for the draw. Against Cardiff, apparently it was Moyes who instructed them not to get the 3rd goal, despite Welbeck, for example, missing a clear chance to score the 3rd goal at 2-1.

My main gripes are the 1) transfers - not even that we fecked up in not getting our targets, more that our targets were Fellaini and Baines. He found a system that worked at Everton (to get them to upper midtable) and is beyond desperate to try and replicate that here. 2nd being team selections in general. 3rd being whatever we're doing on the training pitch clearly isn't focusing on us improving our passing, interplay, creativity, and having us playing as a more cohesive unit, and if we are, it's not working.

Seconded. Exactly my issues with him so far.
 
I agree....but that midfield issue is one hell of a black hole in our team particularly with Carrick out injured.

I don't disagree but we seemed perfectly capable of winning games in spite of midfield in the past. Aside from that, Moyes did spend £27m to improve it - it's his fault that the money was spent on a wrong player based on evidence so far.
 
It looked tricky when it was drawn but Sociedad haven't shown up (have they got any points aside from 0-0 against us?) and Leverkusen turned out to be worse than we imagined. Shakhtar were the only side that played reasonably well against us, I think whoever qualifies from 2nd place in this group will be knocked out immediately in the next round though.

I get what youre saying, but i looked at the draw as a whole and thought we would walk through it - Sociedad in their first CL were never going to pose a problem, particularly after selling their best player in the summer. Shakhtar away was always the tough game. We could have had way tougher groups.
 
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