Moyes So Far!

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rpitroda said:
No, don't twist my words.

I'm not saying you cannot pass judgement on Moyes full stop. I'm saying, you can't use the league position as a sole basis for comparison. It shows something; that we've been inconsistent, and we should have won more games. But to solely say we are in 8th now, therefore we will finish 8th because the table doesn't lie is utterly bullshit, and you know it.

Also, you highlight the only way we'll go higher is by luck. What do you mean by luck? We start winning a load of games? Other teams drop points? Why is that luck for us, whereas right now for Arsenal it's consistency. Or right now they are clear at the top because they are lucky that Utd/City/Chelsea have all dropped more points? Just because an event or run happens later in the season, doesn't suddenly make it luck.

And your point about Young is even worse than your original point. Young has been at this club for a number of years. Since when do we look at each season in isolation? Are you kidding me?
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The league table does not lie.....
We are 8th on the table cos we have played like a mid-table team. If we cannot beat Southampton & West Brom at Old Trafford then we deserved to be 8th. If we cannot protect our lead against a hapless team like Cardiff then we should be 8th. The fixtures is just an excuse - the same Cardiff we struggled against got pulverised 3-0 by Arsenal. City have scored 29 goals at Etihad, United have only 8 at Old Trafford. Until Moyes learns he's no longer in Everton then we would be lucky to finish in the top 4. United are expected to win every game but Moyes has said several times he would have taken a draw before games against weak sides.

We are a big team with the heart of a minnow at the moment.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
To be honest the amount of people who didn't expect this baffles me, especially when they use the 'this team are the champions' argument. I think its something people may have said they expected but underneath actually thought they would still carry on as they were.
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Probably. I just don't think people truly appreciate how much of a change it is.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
To be honest the amount of people who didn't expect this baffles me, especially when they use the 'this team are the champions' argument. I think its something people may have said they expected but underneath actually thought they would still carry on as they were.
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The question is as follows:

Would this have happened under any manager? Or has Moyes contributed to this drop himself? A lot of people are utilising the "champions" excuse because they believe Moyes is making mistakes, therefore, contributing to the current malaise.

My problem is that he should have sorted this in the summer - he was in control of the recruitment. 2 quality midfielders would literally transform this team. Woodward has copped most of the blame for the summer and Moyes has got away with it. The idea that Moyes wasnt in some capacity responsible for the summer fiasco is ridiculous. He dithered on deals the club had lined up and lost out on the lot. Everton fans warned us of that exact situation....and it happened. So, first hurdle as manager and he failed. Current problems on the field "could" be traced back to that.

I still believe him to be far too negative in style, but there is no doubt in my mind that if we had brought in a couple of top midfielders we would have more points on the board.
 
LonelyFire said:
Personal views on Moyes aside, i dont see how anyone cannot be anything else other than worried at the performance levels so far this season. We are just poor and havent strung 2 decent performances together all season. All this talk of an unbeaten run from Moyes - we have drawn 5 of those games. He doesnt seem to genuinely understand that, to much of the media, that is a crisis for Utd. Its December and we are sitting in 8th position and 9 points off the pace. You can say its Arsenal all you like but to not treat them with respect and as genuine title contenders is just arrogant on our part. Can he turn it around? Of course its possible. Will he? I would seriously doubt it. He doesnt seem to have grasped what being a Utd manager is all about yet and i cant see that changing this season.

Yes he may need time but he has not delivered to the standards expected of Utd so far - that is unquestionable. Furthermore, he could have avoided some of this if he acted in the transfer market. (Those solely blaming Woodward are way off the mark).
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I'm sorry but I fundamentally disagree with this post. I really, really, REALLY dislike the "this isn't Man Utd standards" or "This team won the league last year" argument, because (with all due respect) it is a very naive understanding of what a change of manager actually means. So what if we have the same players? I work in Audit, and that means I change teams and clients all the time. I can tell you for a fact, that if my manager changes, or I start to manage a new team, even though all the work may be virtually the same, there is always a bedding in period which doesn't reflect on the quality of the person.

When the manager above me changes, my work does not change. Yet, things are inefficient and unproductive to start with. In the same way, if I change client (one big bank to another), they virtually do the same thing, but I don't know exactly what to do to start with, and there is a bedding in period.

What I'm saying is a lot more changes than just Moyes for Fergie. You're right in that our performances have sucked. You're right in that we should do better as Man Utd. But you're completely neglecting the effect of a change of this magnitude. Honestly, if you didn't forsee a period like this, then you were mistaken.

Remember, replacing a successful manager is INFINITELY harder than replacing a manager who has failed.
 
Hannibal said:
The league table does not lie.....
We are 8th on the table cos we have played like a mid-table team. If we cannot beat Southampton & West Brom at Old Trafford then we deserved to be 8th. If we cannot protect our lead against a hapless team like Cardiff then we should be 8th. The fixtures is just an excuse - the same Cardiff we struggled against got pulverised 3-0 by Arsenal. City have scored 29 goals at Etihad, United have only 8 at Old Trafford. Until Moyes learns he's no longer in Everton then we would be lucky to finish in the top 4. United are expected to win every game but Moyes has said several times he would have taken a draw before games against weak sides.

We are a big team with the heart of a minnow at the moment.
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So, Arsenal don't deserve to be top because they lost 3-1 to Aston Villa at the Emirates?

You're talking nonsense.
 
LonelyFire said:
The question is as follows:

Would this have happened under any manager? Or has Moyes contributed to this drop himself? A lot of people are utilising the "champions" excuse because they believe Moyes is making mistakes, therefore, contributing to the current malaise.

My problem is that he should have sorted this in the summer - he was in control of the recruitment. 2 quality midfielders would literally transform this team. Woodward has copped most of the blame for the summer and Moyes has got away with it. The idea that Moyes wasnt in some capacity responsible for the summer fiasco is ridiculous. He dithered on deals the club had lined up and lost out on the lot. Everton fans warned us of that exact situation....and it happened. So, first hurdle as manager and he failed. Current problems on the field "could" be traced back to that.

I still believe him to be far too negative in style, but there is no doubt in my mind that if we had brought in a couple of top midfielders we would have more points on the board.
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In some ways you're right. Moyes has made mistakes, and I agree with that completely. But again, it comes back to the same question. Did you honestly think he wouldn't once he was appointed? Did you really think he'd just walk in and be successful?

The argument about would this happen with any other appointment (e.g. Mourinho, or Klopp for example)? The answer is no, probably not. They'd be faster off the mark. But just like when you buy young players, or inexperienced players, or invest in technology, or upgrade facilities, or expand the stadium, you do it based on future expectations. Maybe the board and SAF see potential in Moyes, and over time, he'll run the club the right way.

All I'm saying is you seem to have made your decision about Moyes. He's too this, he didn't do that. I don't have the correct answers; he may fail completely, he may turn it around and do well. But I don't like that some of our fans have closed their minds on Moyes. They've made a decision that he probably won't do any better, and eventually he needs to go. This attitude affects the club as a whole, and I think people should be more open.

And the biggest thing (and i'm not saying this about you), is that some people want Moyes to fail just so they can come on here and say "I told you so". That's the thing that disgusts me the most.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
To be honest the amount of people who didn't expect this baffles me, especially when they use the 'this team are the champions' argument. I think its something people may have said they expected but underneath actually thought they would still carry on as they were.
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I didn't expect this at all - The squad was virtually unchanged & Moyes has sucked us into the pits of mediocrity. Any of us here could have done better than Moyes. His first failure was changing the entire back staff of winners for his deer in the headlights crew @ Everton who feel a draw against Cardiff deserves a Purple Heart from the White House.

The most annoying factor is his lack of bravery. Moyes does not think a team should keep attacking in the 2nd half if he's a goal up. His first instinct is to close up shop with negative substitutions. The only time he's played with an attacking intent was against Stoke & I believe it's as a result of Stoke leading 2-1 in the 46th minute. Moyes knew a loss on the day wouldn't have sit well with the fans.

Moyes should play this team like what the team is capable of doing & switch off his small-time mentality. People talk of changes - why is Roberto Martinez not affected by this change? Relatively, Everton should be 15th on the table(Wigan's level) back in the days. I don't think the change is big enough to leave us in the 8th position with 1/3 of the season gone.
 
rpitroda said:
I'm sorry but I fundamentally disagree with this post. I really, really, REALLY dislike the "this isn't Man Utd standards" or "This team won the league last year" argument, because (with all due respect) it is a very naive understanding of what a change of manager actually means. So what if we have the same players? I work in Audit, and that means I change teams and clients all the time. I can tell you for a fact, that if my manager changes, or I start to manage a new team, even though all the work may be virtually the same, there is always a bedding in period which doesn't reflect on the quality of the person.

When the manager above me changes, my work does not change. Yet, things are inefficient and unproductive to start with. In the same way, if I change client (one big bank to another), they virtually do the same thing, but I don't know exactly what to do to start with, and there is a bedding in period.

What I'm saying is a lot more changes than just Moyes for Fergie. You're right in that our performances have sucked. You're right in that we should do better as Man Utd. But you're completely neglecting the effect of a change of this magnitude. Honestly, if you didn't forsee a period like this, then you were mistaken.

Remember, replacing a successful manager is INFINITELY harder than replacing a manager who has failed.
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Read my post again - im not using the "champions" argument. Im pointing out that some are using it due to their perception of Moyes.

As for its not Man Utd standard, i think its clear - its not. There is no way any of us would have expected to be 8th position approaching the Xmas schedule. Did i expect an impact? Of course. Its the most important change in our clubs history. What im saying is that he has contributed to a lot of this himself....and Moyes should be questioned for that.

I dont doubt there is a bedding in period - ive worked in operational management for 15 years and well aware of the impact a reporting line/individual change has on performance/direction of a business. However, to use this as an excuse and not question some basic and fundamental errors that Moyes has made is most definitely naive. Needing time aside as a different topic, he has made mistakes that have cost us - there is no getting away from that.
 
rpitroda said:
In some ways you're right. Moyes has made mistakes, and I agree with that completely. But again, it comes back to the same question. Did you honestly think he wouldn't once he was appointed? Did you really think he'd just walk in and be successful?

The argument about would this happen with any other appointment (e.g. Mourinho, or Klopp for example)? The answer is no, probably not. They'd be faster off the mark. But just like when you buy young players, or inexperienced players, or invest in technology, or upgrade facilities, or expand the stadium, you do it based on future expectations. Maybe the board and SAF see potential in Moyes, and over time, he'll run the club the right way.

All I'm saying is you seem to have made your decision about Moyes. He's too this, he didn't do that. I don't have the correct answers; he may fail completely, he may turn it around and do well. But I don't like that some of our fans have closed their minds on Moyes. They've made a decision that he probably won't do any better, and eventually he needs to go. This attitude affects the club as a whole, and I think people should be more open.

And the biggest thing (and i'm not saying this about you), is that some people want Moyes to fail just so they can come on here and say "I told you so". That's the thing that disgusts me the most.
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The way I see it is that some of the mistakes made could have been avoided even if expecting some mistakes to be made in his first season was/is natural.
The mistake in buying Fellaini for way more than what he could have been brought is the one that stands out the most, that was really weird management.
 
rpitroda said:
So, Arsenal don't deserve to be top because they lost 3-1 to Aston Villa at the Emirates?

You're talking nonsense.
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How did you come up with that conclusion? You are the only spewing balderdash. Read my post again & stop your bizarre reasoning.
 
Hannibal said:
I didn't expect this at all - The squad was virtually unchanged & Moyes has sucked us into the pits of mediocrity. Any of us here could have done better than Moyes. His first failure was changing the entire back staff of winners for his deer in the headlights crew @ Everton who feel a draw against Cardiff deserves a Purple Heart from the White House.

The most annoying factor is his lack of bravery. Moyes does not think a team should keep attacking in the 2nd half if he's a goal up. His first instinct is to close up shop with negative substitutions. The only time he's played with an attacking intent was against Stoke & I believe it's as a result of Stoke leading 2-1 in the 46th minute. Moyes knew a loss on the day wouldn't have sit well with the fans.

Moyes should play this team like what the team is capable of doing & switch off his small-time mentality. People talk of changes - why is Roberto Martinez not affected by this change? Relatively, Everton should be 15th on the table(Wigan's level) back in the days. I don't think the change is big enough to leave us in the 8th position with 1/3 of the season gone.
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Again, another fan who underestimates the effect that a change will have. I can't believe the inability to realize that an unchanged squad doesn't matter. If you've ever worked, and your manager has changed, you should know the influence it has on you, even if your work doesn't change.

As for lack of bravery, I agree. As for changing back room staff, I agree. The only thing I disagree with is your perception that the change isn't big. Sorry, but with respect, that is a very very naive opinion. You're looking at it only from the managers perspective. Think of the players. Most are only really used to one manager. But if you can't understand how big the change is, there's no way I will be able to convince you so there is no point in discussing.

Like I said, he has made mistakes. And if that is why you dislike him and think he will fail, then fine, I can understand that. I just dislike the argument that "we have the same squad, and so we should still be good" argument, or the "change isnt that big" argument.
 
LonelyFire said:
Read my post again - im not using the "champions" argument. Im pointing out that some are using it due to their perception of Moyes.

As for its not Man Utd standard, i think its clear - its not. There is no way any of us would have expected to be 8th position approaching the Xmas schedule. Did i expect an impact? Of course. Its the most important change in our clubs history. What im saying is that he has contributed to a lot of this himself....and Moyes should be questioned for that.

I dont doubt there is a bedding in period - ive worked in operational management for 15 years and well aware of the impact a reporting line/individual change has on performance/direction of a business. However, to use this as an excuse and not question some basic and fundamental errors that Moyes has made is most definitely naive. Needing time aside as a different topic, he has made mistakes that have cost us - there is no getting away from that.
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Read my post again too mate; I am not disagreeing with you. I said he made some mistakes. I just think I attribute it more to the fact its a big change, compared to you who thinks its more to his mistakes. Thats football, differing opinions.
 
kouroux said:
The way I see it is that some of the mistakes made could have been avoided even if expecting some mistakes to be made in his first season was/is natural.
The mistake in buying Fellaini for way more than what he could have been brought is the one that stands out the most, that was really weird management.
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Not saying some couldn't be avoided. I have already said many times that he has made mistakes. I just personlly don't think that is the key reason for our poor performances.
 
Re the backroom staff, seems pretty clear neither would have worked that well with him as he is far more involved in the coaching then SAF was in his latter years as manager where Phelan and Meulensteen led training. Moyes has to live or die on his decisions, and he rightly has decided to appoint people he trusts and respects, and has 100% loyalty. I see no issue with this.
 
Moyes hasn't been the issue this season, for me. I feel he'll grow into the role as Manchester United manager. A lot of players have let him down, Rio, Cleverley, Young, Nani, Valencia and Fellaini, who he put a lot of faith in. He needs a chance to scrap the average players and bring in some quality. Ferguson was seemingly able to squeeze acceptable performances out of some of these said players, but Ferguson was a one off. Moyes dithered on deals in the summer, mainly due to him not wanting to make a balls of his first signing. The irony, of course, is that Fellaini isn't good enough. I can understand some of the tactics this season, he's favoured a more rigid set up, which was sensible. He didn't set us up to concede late goals.
 
rpitroda said:
In some ways you're right. Moyes has made mistakes, and I agree with that completely. But again, it comes back to the same question. Did you honestly think he wouldn't once he was appointed? Did you really think he'd just walk in and be successful?

The argument about would this happen with any other appointment (e.g. Mourinho, or Klopp for example)? The answer is no, probably not. They'd be faster off the mark. But just like when you buy young players, or inexperienced players, or invest in technology, or upgrade facilities, or expand the stadium, you do it based on future expectations. Maybe the board and SAF see potential in Moyes, and over time, he'll run the club the right way.

All I'm saying is you seem to have made your decision about Moyes. He's too this, he didn't do that. I don't have the correct answers; he may fail completely, he may turn it around and do well. But I don't like that some of our fans have closed their minds on Moyes. They've made a decision that he probably won't do any better, and eventually he needs to go. This attitude affects the club as a whole, and I think people should be more open.

And the biggest thing (and i'm not saying this about you), is that some people want Moyes to fail just so they can come on here and say "I told you so". That's the thing that disgusts me the most.
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And thats exactly my point....

Youre right about my opinion of Moyes - i dont like him and didnt want him. Is it clouding my opinion of him? Absolutely. But, at same time, what i am critical of is basic errors - id be questioning any would be manager of the mistakes he has made. He didnt treat this summer with the urgency that was required and ended up pushing through a deal on deadline day that was just wrong on so many levels i cant even begin to discuss again (we all know them).

Will he turn it around? He may well do and i hope he does. Im a Utd fan first and foremost. I just think the club could have made a better appointment and nothing ive seen so far has changed my mind. One thing is for certain, i wont be gloating if he does fail....ill be as depressed as every other Utd fan. I want him to turn it around, but then again, i want to see the Utd we all know and love playing good football and snatching victories from 2-0 down with late goals....all the things that have given us the great history we have. I just dont know if Moyes is capable of it.

The question i posed at the beginning of the summer still stands....Does the manager change Manchester United? or Does Manchester United change the manager? I think we all agree on what the answer should be....i just dont think Moyes is of the same opinion right now.
 
LonelyFire said:
The question i posed at the beginning of the summer still stands....Does the manager change Manchester United? or Does Manchester United change the manager? I think we all agree on what the answer should be....i just dont think Moyes is of the same opinion right now.
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I think we'll see in the summer where I expect that we'll see a fair bit of change in the squad.
 
rpitroda said:
Read my post again too mate; I am not disagreeing with you. I said he made some mistakes. I just think I attribute it more to the fact its a big change, compared to you who thinks its more to his mistakes. Thats football, differing opinions.
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Ok - differing opinion mate.

For avoidance of doubt, i fully expected an impact from this change. No doubt. But i do question aspects of what Moyes has done, in particular, the summer fiasco, the deadline day Fellaini nonsense, and the style of our football.
 
rpitroda said:
In some ways you're right. Moyes has made mistakes, and I agree with that completely. But again, it comes back to the same question. Did you honestly think he wouldn't once he was appointed? Did you really think he'd just walk in and be successful?

The argument about would this happen with any other appointment (e.g. Mourinho, or Klopp for example)? The answer is no, probably not. They'd be faster off the mark. But just like when you buy young players, or inexperienced players, or invest in technology, or upgrade facilities, or expand the stadium, you do it based on future expectations. Maybe the board and SAF see potential in Moyes, and over time, he'll run the club the right way.

All I'm saying is you seem to have made your decision about Moyes. He's too this, he didn't do that. I don't have the correct answers; he may fail completely, he may turn it around and do well. But I don't like that some of our fans have closed their minds on Moyes. They've made a decision that he probably won't do any better, and eventually he needs to go. This attitude affects the club as a whole, and I think people should be more open.

And the biggest thing (and i'm not saying this about you), is that some people want Moyes to fail just so they can come on here and say "I told you so". That's the thing that disgusts me the most.
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To be fair Jose made just as big a mess as Moyes when it came to the Chelsea strikers. Pellegrini did the same with CBs at City.
 
LonelyFire said:
Ok - differing opinion mate.

For avoidance of doubt, i fully expected an impact from this change. No doubt. But i do question aspects of what Moyes has done, in particular, the summer fiasco, the deadline day Fellaini nonsense, and the style of our football.
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The transfer dealings can't be solely laid at the door of the manager. He identifies players he wants, but all negotiation lies with the Chief Exec who was new to the role. Losing Gill as well as SAF was a big factor in this. We have had last minute deadline days under SAF too, see Berbatov in particular..
 
datura said:
The transfer dealings can't be solely laid at the door of the manager. He identifies players he wants, but all negotiation lies with the Chief Exec who was new to the role. Losing Gill as well as SAF was a big factor in this. We have had last minute deadline days under SAF too, see Berbatov in particular..
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Didnt say they were mate - everyone has blamed Woodward when in fact, Moyes has a degree of responsibility for this. The club had identified players that they could close deals on - Moyes dithered on these and asked club to go elsewhere. Long and short of it, he ended up with nothing.

As for Berbatov comparison/deadline day, my problem is we paid 27m for a player who had a buyout clause of 23m all summer. fecking bonkers in any language.
 
LonelyFire said:
Didnt say they were mate - everyone has blamed Woodward when in fact, Moyes has a degree of responsibility for this. The club had identified players that they could close deals on - Moyes dithered on these and asked club to go elsewhere. Long and short of it, he ended up with nothing.

As for Berbatov comparison/deadline day, my problem is we paid 27m for a player who had a buyout clause of 23m all summer. fecking bonkers in any language.
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If you have reservations about players, why should you buy them? Thankfully we place responsibility in identifying players with the manager.

I don't really care about the money, we've 'overpaid' for players in the past, it's up to the player to try and justify the fee. If he doesn't then the price tag becomes an issue.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
To be honest the amount of people who didn't expect this baffles me, especially when they use the 'this team are the champions' argument. I think its something people may have said they expected but underneath actually thought they would still carry on as they were.
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Most people accepted things would be different. Most people expected a drop in standards and performances and if you look at the thread at the start of the season, most agreed "top 3 finish and R16 of the Champions League, good cup run would be a bonus".

This is a comparatively big drop in the standard that were expected. Our previous standards were to compete for the title all season, even if we lose by the odd few points. We were 14 points off 3rd last season and 19 points off 3rd the season before. Expectations were instantly cut from around 90 points to around 75 and from quarters/semi's of the CL to merely qualifying from the group stages.

The problem isn't that people expected a continuation, it's that United fans have minimum expectations; currently Moyes isn't attaining those bare minimums. A continuation of our current form leaves us with 64 points this season. This is a total attained by the likes of Newcastle, Everton and Aston Villa in recent seasons and obviously nowhere near the form of even a Champions League team, let alone title challengers.

If Chelsea were 5 points worse off at this stage of the season, questions would be asked of Mourinho. However he has the benefit of pointing to his past achievements as an indicator that it's a minor blip that is recoverable (just like if we had these exact results under Fergie). Moyes on the other hand only has a history of fighting a decent team to a 5th or 6th place finish. He will be afforded time, as any manager should be, but unless he starts to show signs of progress fans will start to naturally get on his back.
 
Its very interesting to take a look at our premierleague position after 13 games on premierleague.com. They have a cool league table widget thingy that allows you to search historical data. Do it if you're a nerd like me. Here's what I found, I got bored and didn't do all seasons:

92/93 United were 7th after 13 games played, 5 points behind the league leaders and went on to win the league.
94/95 United were 7th after 13 games played, 5 points behind the league leaders and went on to lose the league on the last day of the season.
96/97 United were 6th after 13 games played, 6 points behind the league leaders and went on the win the league.
98/99 United were 3rd after 13 games played, 4 points behind the league leaders and went on the win the treble.
02/03 United were 5th after 13 games played, 9 points behind the league leaders and went on to win the league.

Anyway, you get the jist of it. For every season like the ones above you'll invaribably find others where we were 1st and lost the league or 7th and finished 3rd. My point being, 13 games are gone. The Moyes So Far thread is my favourite thread on the caf coz it flushes out the glory hunters from the lads who'll stick with our new manager.

I've no problem us using this thread to discuss Moyes in terms of team selection, substitions, press conferences, transfers etc. But really lads, debating his performace in terms of league position after 13 games is just plain silly...
 
Rory 7 said:
Its very interesting to take a look at our premierleague position after 13 games on premierleague.com. They have a cool league table widget thingy that allows you to search historical data. Do it if you're a nerd like me. Here's what I found, I got bored and didn't do all seasons:

92/93 United were 7th after 13 games played, 5 points behind the league leaders and went on to win the league.
94/95 United were 7th after 13 games played, 5 points behind the league leaders and went on to lose the league on the last day of the season.
96/97 United were 6th after 13 games played, 6 points behind the league leaders and went on the win the league.
98/99 United were 3rd after 13 games played, 4 points behind the league leaders and went on the win the treble.
02/03 United were 5th after 13 games played, 9 points behind the league leaders and went on to win the league.

Anyway, you get the jist of it. For every season like the ones above you'll invaribably find others where we were 1st and lost the league or 7th and finished 3rd. My point being, 13 games are gone. The Moyes So Far thread is my favourite thread on the caf coz it flushes out the glory hunters from the lads who'll stick with our new manager.

I've no problem us using this thread to discuss Moyes in terms of team selection, substitions, press conferences, transfers etc. But really lads, debating his performace in terms of league position after 13 games is just plain silly...
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Thank you.
 
finneh said:
Most people accepted things would be different. Most people expected a drop in standards and performances and if you look at the thread at the start of the season, most agreed "top 3 finish and R16 of the Champions League, good cup run would be a bonus".

This is a comparatively big drop in the standard that were expected. Our previous standards were to compete for the title all season, even if we lose by the odd few points. We were 14 points off 3rd last season and 19 points off 3rd the season before. Expectations were instantly cut from around 90 points to around 75 and from quarters/semi's of the CL to merely qualifying from the group stages.

The problem isn't that people expected a continuation, it's that United fans have minimum expectations; currently Moyes isn't attaining those bare minimums. A continuation of our current form leaves us with 64 points this season. This is a total attained by the likes of Newcastle, Everton and Aston Villa in recent seasons and obviously nowhere near the form of even a Champions League team, let alone title challengers.

If Chelsea were 5 points worse off at this stage of the season, questions would be asked of Mourinho. However he has the benefit of pointing to his past achievements as an indicator that it's a minor blip that is recoverable (just like if we had these exact results under Fergie). Moyes on the other hand only has a history of fighting a decent team to a 5th or 6th place finish. He will be afforded time, as any manager should be, but unless he starts to show signs of progress fans will start to naturally get on his back.
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I'm sorry but that is just plain bollocks. Look at my post above.

For what its worth my view on Moyes so far is he's done great to navigate us to the last 16 in the CL and I'll be more than happy with a top 4 finish. I really wouldn't be surprised if we challenge for top spot. You just can't judge the league performance on 13 games. It really is a Marathon not a Sprint as old Bill Shankly would have said.
 
datura said:
If you have reservations about players, why should you buy them? Thankfully we place responsibility in identifying players with the manager.

I don't really care about the money, we've 'overpaid' for players in the past, it's up to the player to try and justify the fee. If he doesn't then the price tag becomes an issue.
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So you dont see the problem with paying 4m extra on deadline day for a player that could have been bought for a set amount all summer? I think you're in the minority if you dont see the issue here.

As for the issue with Moyes picking the players, i suspect your opinion would change if you knew who the players were the club/SAF had lined up.
 
Rory 7 said:
Its very interesting to take a look at our premierleague position after 13 games on premierleague.com. They have a cool league table widget thingy that allows you to search historical data. Do it if you're a nerd like me. Here's what I found, I got bored and didn't do all seasons:

92/93 United were 7th after 13 games played, 5 points behind the league leaders and went on to win the league.
94/95 United were 7th after 13 games played, 5 points behind the league leaders and went on to lose the league on the last day of the season.
96/97 United were 6th after 13 games played, 6 points behind the league leaders and went on the win the league.
98/99 United were 3rd after 13 games played, 4 points behind the league leaders and went on the win the treble.
02/03 United were 5th after 13 games played, 9 points behind the league leaders and went on to win the league.

Anyway, you get the jist of it. For every season like the ones above you'll invaribably find others where we were 1st and lost the league or 7th and finished 3rd. My point being, 13 games are gone. The Moyes So Far thread is my favourite thread on the caf coz it flushes out the glory hunters from the lads who'll stick with our new manager.

I've no problem us using this thread to discuss Moyes in terms of team selection, substitions, press conferences, transfers etc. But really lads, debating his performace in terms of league position after 13 games is just plain silly...
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My issue is the performances - i pointed out the league table as an aside. Performances have been poor - no doubting that.
 
LonelyFire said:
So you dont see the problem with paying 4m extra on deadline day for a player that could have been bought for a set amount all summer? I think you're in the minority if you dont see the issue here.

As for the issue with Moyes picking the players, i suspect your opinion would change if you knew who the players were the club/SAF had lined up.
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He obviously wasn't first choice and so we ended up overpaying. It happens and it happened before.

It's irrelevant who we had lined up. It's Moyes' team and it's his decision who he wants to sign.
 
LonelyFire said:
My issue is the performances - i pointed out the league table as an aside. Performances have been poor - no doubting that.
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Well thats fair enough. Plenty on here are talking about our league position.
But might I add that I've been watching lads on here whinging about our 'performance level' for years.
Including last year when we ran away with the league!
 
Kid Cunto said:
The jury is still out with Moyes, anyone who has made their mind up already has an agenda.
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I agree.
Unfortunately some made their minds up the moment he was appointed and are just sitting back waiting and in some cases hoping that he fails.
 
Getsme said:
I agree.
Unfortunately some made their minds up the moment he was appointed and are just sitting back waiting and in some cases hoping that he fails.
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This is a good point and ive tried to clarify from my earlier posts. I may not like him, but that doesnt mean i want him to fail! I want to be proved wrong.
 
Rory 7 said:
I'm sorry but that is just plain bollocks. Look at my post above.

For what its worth my view on Moyes so far is he's done great to navigate us to the last 16 in the CL and I'll be more than happy with a top 4 finish. I really wouldn't be surprised if we challenge for top spot. You just can't judge the league performance on 13 games. It really is a Marathon not a Sprint as old Bill Shankly would have said.
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More than happy with top 4? We won the league with 5 games to spare last season and now you'll be happy with mere 4th?
 
Rory 7 said:
Well thats fair enough. Plenty on here are talking about our league position.
But might I add that I've been watching lads on here whinging about our 'performance level' for years.
Including last year when we ran away with the league!
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Very true mate. I just think there is a lot to be questioned so far.
 
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