Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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I'm not sure I would go for "master"... but he certainly was generally very good tactically, and his tactical-nous certainly was under-appreciated.
Good article about him by Jonathen Wilson
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/08/sir-alex-ferguson-tactics-evolution
So basically his opinion if different to yours ergo he has an agenda and isn't worth debating with.
I'm not sure you're getting this whole 'forum' thing.
Sorry? Ferguson was NOT a master tactician. Nor was he a master coach. He delegated a large portion of those responsibilities. What made Ferguson so special was that he knew how to set up a football club so that no-one had too much responsibility to reduce the quality of the work they did, the right things were delegated to the right people, he was overall in control and everyone knew that they reported to him, and last but the key point, is that he was the best motivator, whether it was through control, fear, or a way with words. Ferguson got the players playing at 100% week in week out; against big and small teams.
I think his point was that for years Fergie was criticised tactically on this forum and for his over-reliance on wings. Now that he's gone, he's suddenly heralded as a fantastic tactician and the over reliance on wings is being put on Moyes only.
That's what made him stand out; more that he could evolve with the game, yet keep his key principles and strengths. He indeed was good tactically but is that what made him stand out? No, probably not. Managers like Mourinho are better tactically, but they lack the ability that Ferguson had, which was to get everyone playing for one another, fully motivated, and desperate to win. Ferguson was a master at creating the mental position and strength to dominate league football. That's what made him so brilliant, not that he was tactically better than his competitors.
Fergie was definitely over reliant on wingers in the last few years, mainly due to him being so stubborn about our midfield, it's unfortunate that Moyes has now inherited that average midfield and also arguably our weakest bunch of wingers in quite some time.
Fergie wasn't a master tactician, I was trying to troll. He was a very good tactician, who knew how to deal with players individually and get the best out of them. That's where his strength lies in. He also didn't fail with Berbatov or Kagawa. Berbatov's poor work rate and nonchalant approach was the problem, while Fergie had trust in Kagawa to deliver in his second season.
Yup.
Fergie was also lucky that Carrick was virtually injury free last season. Moyes definetely made a mess of Transfer Window along with our board. Two good signings are needed in January and I've a feeling that we'll get two signings.
To be fair, I've never heard anyone say he was a fantastic tactician other than the guy just now. That is both on this forum and away from it! I thought it was common knowledge was that what set him apart was his ability to adapt to the change in a professional footballer, and the ability to mentally position his players and staff to be desperate to win, be fully motivated, and play and work for one another week in week out.
Swings and roundabouts mate; we win, you'll get the gloaters in here saying Moyes is the real deal. Lose, and we'll get the haters in.
I don't think Fergie was a master tactician (I was trolling as most people mistake him to be a master), he was a very good one, but his naivety in big games especially summed him up. The way he dealt with Barcelona in the 2011 CL final still confuses me. One of his best moments though, was in 11/12 when he brought on Scholes to take advantage of Arshavin's poor defending at the Emirates. Welbeck scored the winner that originated from Arshavin's side.
It's funny though because at the beginning of last season, was anyone really worried about our wingers? Valencia and Nani were coming off decent seasons, Young was not hated as much as he is now. Valencia and Nani have the ability, I think it came as a surprise to everyone, including Fergie, that all of a sudden they became so useless.
I'd rather see neither. I just wish people could be level headed. I wish for too much I think.
PS: Level headed doesn't mean neutral; what I mean is, able to see the opposite side of the argument. Right now if someone disagrees with you, it's "OMG YOU HAVE AN AGENDA, YOU'RE BIASED, YOU'RE AN IDIOT etc etc".
Ah some of us aren't haters...Personally, I'd love to see him succeed but I just don't think he has it in him
I hope...There is no debate though! He's not interested in alternative opinions, its just the same moaning and criticising every time.
How quickly people forget what SAF said in his speech last season. And thank feck most of the idiots on here are nowhere near OT onna match day.
Apologies, didn't see your previous post.
Yeah, I agree. For me, the biggest example of him "losing the plot" so to speak in big games was against City away. Terrible team, terrible approach, and we got the result we deserved unfortunately. One of the few times I've genuinely seen us play a game to not lose rather than to win. That's what upset me most about that season; that we bottled it and tried to something which just wasn't the United way. Would much rather we went out to win, and lose 6-1 again.
I just dislike that some want him to fail to say I told you so. Again, not saying that you're that type of guy, but there genuinely are people like that on our forum.
Also, all I'd say is this; how many people thought Ferguson would succeed after his first few seasons at United?
To clarify, NO, i'm not saying the situation was the same. I'm talking specifically about the opinions of the fans. I bet at that point, everyone thought exactly how you're thinking now; I really wish he'd do well, but I don't think he has it in him.
We all know how that turned out. Point i'm trying to make by my story is that, just keep an open mind. It's far, far, FAR too early to make the judgement he doesn't have the ability.
Good post.
Ofcourse, I'd like to see Moyes play attractive football and win matches, and obviously I'm not that happy with his tenure so far but saying that he's a failure and he can't turn things around in the first 4 months of the season is wrong and comes across as a bit cnutish IMO.
No need to apologise.
I think once Moyes gets the players he wants, we'll see a much better side (that's obvious). Not much has changed since last season, we're still heavily reliant on wingers. There's no problem in attacking down the wings, but when you rely on them like a drug-addict, it starts to become annoying. I commend Moyes for his slight tweaks, which include Evra crossing the ball more, Rooney higher up the field, and Van Persie playing more as a classic #9, but at the same time I think he's been naive in some fixtures. Nonetheless, we have some decent fixtures coming up and I think we'll win today.
Aye, our football has been extremely shit. Combined with our poor results, it's worrying (at least under Fergie when we were shit, we still could get wins). Also concerned that we have 1/9 points against the big teams away, and 4/6 at home (and not a convincing 4 either).
The problem is we have issues on all fronts right now; not digging out results when we are playing bad, inability to beat the big teams convincingly home or away, injuries to a number of key players, varied support behind Moyes, big change due to SAF leaving...
Well that's my day ruined.
Fair points to be honest. Personally I think pushing Rooney up was an error, but turned out a blessing in disguise since RVP got injured. We really have no connection through the middle right now, which probably also explains our reliance on our wingers.
Agree though that once Moyes buys more of his own players, we'll hopefully do better. Clearly he wanted a very different MF to what Fellaini is, hence he didn't buy him early (as if to say he was trying for someone else), and then when that failed he went for him in the end as we needed anyone almost.
Also think our reliance on the wings is just getting ridiculous now. But, as I said above, it's pretty unlucky. Valencia and Nani had a couple good solid seasons before last season started. No one could have predicted they'd turn into dog shit. And on top of that, no one could predict they'd remain dog shit - most thought it was an off-season; the exception, not the rule.
One thing for sure is we need to revamp our entire midfield.
If I was a mod he wouldn't be able to ignore me!
Ooooo look at that!!....Drunk on your own sense of power...Disgrace to mods all around the world
fecking Spoony.
Yes....His misleading thread/post has caused much confusion to period Rossi
I would love pages upon pages of "gloaters" praising Moyes.
We have far to many on here who are against the manager, and to me it seems some seem quite happy when things go against him.
The guy has had 13 league games. It was always going to take time.
Aye. Yet, there are actually people who will tell you that's long enough to adjust to taking over the biggest job in football, after the most successful manager in history...
... and they would be idiots.
A great man once said this:
"When we had bad times here, everyone stood by me and your job now is to stand by your new manager"
"When we had bad times here, everyone stood by me and your job now is to stand by your new manager"
Exactly. You're spot on yet some on here must have heard: "your job now is to stand by your new manager unless you're not happy with his performance after 13 league matches."
Depends whether the players he wants, or more accurately gets...are actually better or they simply fit into some kind of system Moyes wants to play. His activity in the transfer market will be heavily scrutinised from January and summer 2014, when he should have a clear idea of the players he wants and how he wants them to play in his system.
I don't think playing Van Persie as a classic 9 is a good thing actually. It makes the team far too reliant on Rooney and our misfiring wide players for creativity, and you take away so much of Van Persie's ability in the final third. Last season he was basically a 9.5 and it saw him droping between the lines frequently, using all his nous, fantastic movement and close control to rack up assists as well as goals. He isn't a classic number 9, he has played wide and as a no. 10 which has made him such a rounded player. Moyes has taken a lot of that away by tweaking his role and the whole setup has become far more rigid with less unpredictability.
It is no coincidence that he hasn't looked the same player under Moyes. He is playing closer to the opposition goal and subsequently he can't get involved as much as he would like in United's build up play. He has seen much less of the ball this season and had very few clear cut chances to capitalise on. He played this role at Arsenal but the difference there was that he always had great service into the box from wide or centrally through Cazorla, Wilshere etc. At United last year he was able to better showcase his all-round footballing ability and you could see how much he enjoyed his football under Ferguson. You can't say he has the same vibe this campaign and he has not been as instrumental to United, mainly because of how the manager wants to play him. It is all setup to give Rooney licence to do what he wants but this should not be to the detriment of arguably the most complete striker in Europe.
You know I'm loving this season. The underdog feel to it, opposition fans and some of our own just wishing Moyes to fail, the sense that we are team with something to prove. As mad as that is after winning the league last year losing SAF and replacing him with Moyes gives this whole season a real us against the world feel. I'm loving it.
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