And have you looked at the KIND of "long balls" we played? For example, we targeted Gibbs with long balls on Friday and it worked beautifully. Valencia won it and laid it off to RVP/Rooney. It is easy to look at stats and reach conclusions - but you need to how they are used in the game before you complain
Moyes So Far!
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And have you looked at the KIND of "long balls" we played? For example, we targeted Gibbs with long balls on Friday and it worked beautifully. Valencia won it and laid it off to RVP/Rooney. It is easy to look at stats and reach conclusions - but you need to how they are used in the game before you complain
That would involve fans understanding the game on a technical and tactical level, going by some of the analysis I read on here, that is a bit to ask of.
According to Telegraph, we'll create a new position for him.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...rmance-John-Murtough-to-join-David-Moyes.html
Interesting. But what exactly is he doing? Helping players improve in an area that coaches can't? I don't really understand what they mean by that. It just sort of sounds like he'll be a head coach.
Not really actually. I always envisioned our post-Fergie transition to be quite turbulent. I just don't think Moyes is United material based on his (lack) of winning credentials and also his very cautious style of play. I wouldn't complain if our manager had failed to win us trophies in the first couple of seasons so long as he has us playing brave, exciting football as well as having a proven track record for success.
That's not to say I relish at the opportunity to undermine him everytime we slip up, naturally I want him to do well since it only benefits the team and lets face it - if his contract is anything to go by he's here to stay so we might as well accept it and back him wholeheartedly.
(Still dream of Klopp though
)I'm not too bothered with the CL, there's no way we can compete with Bayern without a massive stroke of luck. I do think he's been lucky with the PL though in that there's no other team who look good enough to run away with it.
I have grown in confidence in Moyes over the course of the season. This, I will admit, is almost solely down to reading Fergie's book. Having had am insight into the mind of the man, and the detail he employs, the fact that he swears by Moyes has reassured me alone.
I would just love to see us try something other than 'pass it wide and cross it in'. It is apparently the 'United Way', and has been happening for years, and I do get a bit envious at times watching other top teams pass and move.
I would just love to see us try something other than 'pass it wide and cross it in'. It is apparently the 'United Way', and has been happening for years, and I do get a bit envious at times watching other top teams pass and move.
Yeah, I don't understand that bit. Maybe he's doing what Dan Ashworth does for England.
It's heartening to see the board doing everything to ensure Moyes succeeds. Now we need a good January transfer window.
I've just read this and I'm confused. Why not?
We have one of the best goalkeepers in the game. Penetrative full backs like Rafael and Evra, potentially Baines. A trio of great young centre halfs that can push up and allow us to play more higher and progressively. One of which, Evans, has some of the best distribution from the back across Europe. We have Michael Carrick, the most consistent midfielder in England over the past two seasons. Then there's talent like Nani, Kagawa and Valencia, all of whom are very good footballers in their own right, and comparatively better than the vast majority of their counterparts in the Premier League. Tom Cleverley is a solid midfielder, no worse than any other midfielder playing outside the top clubs. We have Fellaini, who has struggled initially, however, if you had to compile a list of the best performing Premier League midfielders over the past 2-3 seasons then he'd walk into the list. Then there's a striking quartet of Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck, all of whom internationals and important ones at that. Please tell me, why on earth can't David Moyes get this side playing better football? I've actually went and forgot Januzaj. Is there a better 18 year old anywhere right now? I think not.
This lowering of the expectations has to stop. Yes, our midfield needs to improve. Yes, we could do with a top quality wide player. But that aside, Moyes is working with some fecking quality footballers here. I won't hear otherwise. Coaches all across Europe have managed to get weaker squads playing attractive, progressive and fast-paced football. We all fawn over Swansea and Southampton and rightfully so. Southampton, in particular, press better than we do and knock it about brilliantly. Their squad isn't a patch on ours though. Moyes should improve our football with the wonderful players he already. If he can't then he's not right for the job. Pretending as if he needs to buy a load of players to alter the style and aesthetics isn't right.
I actually agree with lot of your other points, it's just this stuck out at me and I don't really understand the attitude. I get that everyone wants to get behind Moyes in the hope he succeeds, but I just can't hold too much hope in any manager that can't get this squad of players playing the right way.
it's a squad full of good/excellent players but it's also quite a slow side. It doesn't have the pace of our previous sides.
I've asked this before and I'll ask it again; If SAF couldn't get this side playing great football, how exactly is Moyes going to?
I've asked this before and I'll ask it again; If SAF couldn't get this side playing great football, how exactly is Moyes going to?
This is the point where I get a lot of negative replies. I don't mind if people disagree, but I do think I have a point. I don't think the Sir Alex that retired was as tactically relevant as he used to be. I think he went at the right time, and our success was more to do with the mentality he ingrained into the club and players, and his ability to motivate the already very good players he had at his disposal, rather than a system and playing style that was truly amazing. He built squads of great players due to his brilliance in the market, and those players worked their arses off for him.
However, we lost a playing identity along the way, and I've always blamed that on the rotation. It was too much. Players were no longer rewarded for good form, as the team for the next week had already been selected. Had the squad been trimmed and Sir Alex settled on a defence and a midfield partnership - notice our best form came when we settled on Carrick and Clev for a period last season - then the lads could have built playing relationships and gelled as a unit. Our play could have been more cohesive. Instead, we often witnessed near 40 year olds in 2 man midfields, badly exposed. We had more out of form players than I can remember. I think the individual development of our young players has come at a cost of what is seen as the greater good - winning titles. I'm not saying it's wrong, who on earth am I? Sir Alex was a genius and only he could make that work.
But when he retired I had hoped we would see more of a settled XI, some pressing, a more cohesive shape and an actual style or identity. Moyes may be the man to to bring all that, we'll know in time. But, I was actually really confident that our new manager could not just match what we achieved, but improve it. Our football was there to be improved. The young players are there, waiting, to get games week in, week out. Already, Jones and Smalling are playing a lot better than they have in a year and there's only one reason why. Game time.
Like I said, the Sir Alex of latter years wasn't putting out teams that were packed with movement, passed the ball at pace or played attractive football. I'm sure there's younger coaches out there that have a better idea as to how to do that in 2013. Sir Alex has probably forgot more than the likes of Pep, Klopp, Simeone and Pochettino etc. even know about management, but I can well imagine that the latter may be more relevant coaches in this day and age. Their teams right now seem to indicate that.
As for Moyes, it all depends. He was hired on the basis of his longevity, character and man management skills. I don't think he was hired because of how his teams played football. That isn't a criticism, by the way. So for that reason, it remains to be seen if Moyes can get this side playing great football. But I don't see any reason why he can't. Sir Alex was great, but he wasn't the only manager in the world. Sorry for the essay!
We hear that every season, though. It's not luck that we play in a competitive league, where the mid-table teams can really mix it up with the big boys. After all, we play all the same fixtures that Chelsea, City and Arsenal do. Sometimes we are able to deal better with the intense competition of this league and pull away (like last season) and sometimes we aren't.
Arsenal have been the very definition of 'good enough to run away with it' this season. After the dodgy start at Villa they'd won eight and drawn one, which is pretty much as good as a Premier League club could hope for. If they'd beaten us, they'd be five points clear at the top and eleven points clear of us. But they didn't, we beat them. So it's a bit harsh to play the 'Moyes would be doing worse if the competition wasn't so weak' card when we ourselves are the only reason Arsenal haven't gone ten games unbeaten with nine wins, and built an almost insurmountable lead over us.
It's not like my attitude matters to the team. Don't worry.
Not really, as has been pointed out many times, there's a lot of flaws in that team and there have been loads of seasons where they've had starts like that. But this is hardly the place to discuss their title credentials so I'll just leave it in that I strongly disagree.
So far the PL has been mental in terms of topsy turvy results and big teams underperforming, far more than usual, I bet the team that wins it will probably do so on 75-80 points, certainly they will not run away with it like we did last year.
You're being ridiculously critical of SAF here. I doubt he lost any of his tactical awareness at all, I think he just knew the limits of the squad he had at his disposal. I don't think us not being able to play great football was his fault (apart from the fact that he made odd transfers that didn't really help to solve the issues i.e. our midfield). He knew the squad he had was incapable of playing like a Bayern, or a Barca of old, or us in 06/07 so he built it to get the results because ultimately they were what mattered. I don't think Moyes in any way inherited a squad capable of great football, at all, hence his desperation to sign a top class creative midfielder this summer.
it's hardly coincidence that the last time we had a great midfield and two very fast, skillful wingers was in 06/07, the year we arguably played our best football in a very long time. Even our 07/08 team, which is regarded as one of his greatest, was far more of a well oiled machine than a side that played good football, largely due to the decline of Scholes and Giggs (as a winger).
This side won't be able to play great football until we make a few top signings and anyone being critical of Moyes for our current playstyle is being very harsh.
I think it's fair enough to discuss them in the context of whether or not Moyes has us in fifth place in a strong league or in a league where no-one is taking advantage of an opportunity to take control.
I can't see that there's much arguing with the facts here. Whatever Arsenal's reputation or the putative weaknesses in their squad, those things aren't coming into play at the moment - so far, they've achieved a superb set of results - many of them extremely convincing performances - are playing excellent football, and have shown that they can mix it with Europe's best too (with the away win against Dortmund). The only reason they're not 'running away with it' is because there are lots of other good teams at the top of this competitive league, and the likes of Liverpool and Chelsea are also getting good results (after a fairly weak start in the latter's case) to hang onto Arsenal's coattails.
Look at the facts: after the same number of games last season - a season in which we did run away with the league - we were only two points better off than Arsenal are now. So that says to me that everyone is keeping up because the competition is strong, not because Arsenal are weak. Whatever predictions we make about the future based on Arsenal's record in past seasons is irrelevant - right now, we're fifth, five points off the league-leaders, who are doing extremely well.
Yes Brightonian, because facts are the most important thing, always. Comparing the us of last season up to this stage to the Arsenal of this season up to this stage despite having completely different fixtures is clearly a flawless way of confirming them as being the team capable of running away with the title this season.
We'll see about Arsenal, I still think Chelsea and City will be our main rivals and neither team has been particularly good so far.
No worries, I know many people won't agree and that's fine. It's a contentious point. See, I think you're being a little too critical of our players. I listed all of our players and their credentials above. This is a squad packed full of talent that few clubs in the game can equal or better. Why can't they play attractive football? Do you not think the 'limits' were sometimes exposed by tactical mistakes and a refusal to play a fairly settled XI? For example, why was Giggs routinely played in a two man central midfield against teams like City and Chelsea, even though he was often incapable of playing the role?
I don't think we can play like Bayern or Barcelona. The squad simply isn't good enough. But if teams like Southampton and Atletico Madrid can play great, attacking football with an inferior squad of players then there's no reason a first XI that can contain players like Van Persie, Rooney, Kagawa, Nani, Januzaj, Carrick, Rafael and Evra cannot. I'm not having it. And I don't think it's a case of paying 40 million for Fabregas, plonking him alongside Carrick, and suddenly we see a shift in style and attractiveness. Sure, it will help, but it's deeper than that. Our movement is often terrible for a squad so talented. Our pressing, before Moyes, was non-existent. Too many of our players get isolated, while a defence consisting of older players would be cemented to their 18 yard box. This is all, surely, something that should be sorted out by the coaches? Again, I wouldn't know what to do. We can all only pretend that we know how to on the internet or in the pub, but the style of football we see from teams with weaker individuals indicates to me that there is coaches out there that can, maybe, do better with this squad than what Sir Alex was, playing style-wise. Again, I want to stress that in actually managing the club and the players, nobody comes close.
Maybe I am just too confident in the players we have got. Buying better players will only help, but if the football doesn't improve under Moyes over the course of the season with what he's already got at his disposal then I will worry. I really, really hope he can do that.
Cina has basically made the same argument I would so apologies if I repeat points he already made.
You're right to say we have a strong squad of players, I'm not arguing against that. My point would be that (strong though it is) our team is quite weak when compared to the very best teams. If you compare our current team to the one we had when we last won the CL you'll see how far behind our previous standards we really are. There's a strong argument that that team was better in terms of goalkeeper, defence, midfield and attack. For all the good players we have at the moment, we're a long way from that standard.
I agree that we shouldn't lower our standards. Thing is, we've been playing relatively poor football for a few seasons now. SAF is a far better manager than Moyes (and a far less conservative one too) so it seems unrealistic to expect Moyes to drastically improve our style of football with this squad when SAF wasn't able to do it either.
Basically I think you might be overrating our current squad a bit. How many genuinely top quality players do you think we have at the moment? Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra and Giggs are past their best. The likes of Carrick, Nani, Valencia and Evans have never been at that level. De Gea and Rafael will certainly reach that point but (arguably) aren't there yet. Fellaini and Cleverley aren't at the standard we'd want for first team players. Kagawa could be top class but hasn't looked it at this club. Rooney and RvP are the only really top players we have atm, at least if we're judging them by the high standards we've set for ourselves.
Our squad is strong but our first team is seriously lacking in top level quality. Moyes needs to improve on that before he can really get us playing the way we'd want, at least in my opinion.
Was just watching the 06/07 season review - and I'd forgotten what a ridiculous % of our play that year came from the wings. Probably 3/4 of our goals came from a wide cross, from both wingers and full backs. (also forgot how much quality Gary Neville had on a cross. For all of Rafael's advantages of Nev in an attacking sense, he needs to cross better). The majority of the remainder came from set pieces (Vidic was great that year).
Anyway point being we were awesome that season, and our main tactic was get it out wide and whip it in - very similar to what Moyes is getting massively criticised for. I think we forget how exciting that type of play can be, though it obviously isn't at the moment. There is nothing wrong with that style per se, just the way we're currently doing it. We're too slow to get it wide, and the wide players need to stop fannying about on the ball, and instead just get ball, take a touch and whip it in.
Anyway point being we were awesome that season, and our main tactic was get it out wide and whip it in - very similar to what Moyes is getting massively criticised for. I think we forget how exciting that type of play can be, though it obviously isn't at the moment. There is nothing wrong with that style per se, just the way we're currently doing it. We're too slow to get it wide, and the wide players need to stop fannying about on the ball, and instead just get ball, take a touch and whip it in.
Our main issue is the tempo with which we normally play these days, it's too slow. On the rare occasions that we've played with a quicker tempo over the last year the football has been excellent. The Sunderland game at OT last season comes to mind (the first hour anyway) where they just couldn't deal with the quickness of of our play and movement off the ball. But too often we play at walking pace which leads to dull and dour football
The games that really stood out for me last season were City, Chelsea and Newcastle away where we tore into those teams
A bit like our last two games at Fulham and home to Arsenal
Apart from that I don't see a big difference in the way we're playing this season - Perhaps Kagawa slows us a little, we've missed Rafael, RVP inevitably isn't in the same amazing form as last season either
We've been through a shaky period and it's clear our confidence is well on it's way back - we will play more expansively when the confidence and belief truly returns - wins from behind have helped that, smashing Fulham and beating the Gooners have helped that - if only it wasn't for fecking injuries
If Moyes really is the chosen one he should be able to heal Carrick and Jones?
A bit like our last two games at Fulham and home to Arsenal
Apart from that I don't see a big difference in the way we're playing this season - Perhaps Kagawa slows us a little, we've missed Rafael, RVP inevitably isn't in the same amazing form as last season either
We've been through a shaky period and it's clear our confidence is well on it's way back - we will play more expansively when the confidence and belief truly returns - wins from behind have helped that, smashing Fulham and beating the Gooners have helped that - if only it wasn't for fecking injuries
If Moyes really is the chosen one he should be able to heal Carrick and Jones?
This, so so much.
I don't think many realise just how much we miss him both in defence and going forward. He gives us so much more balance and we have looked so much better with him out there this season.
I think when he gets a run of games, we will start to see a real difference in our play.
You don't notice Valencia's limitations so much when he has Rafael together with him on the right.He provides the extra width,and can go past a player with as much ease as any of our wide men.Defensively he's solid.
I said this many times in the newbies and obviously got shot down for it.
To me it's a very valid point. Fergie built his last team on how he knew to win games, not play great football but to get the results needed. It's a big ask off Moyes to come in straight away and change all that.
It's going to be a big summer for him, he will no longer have the excuse of it being 'Fergie's United' he will have had more than enough time to put his stamp on the squad.
This season was always going to be hard, as it turns out it's probably harder than even I imagined, however like most things in life it's going to take time.
The result against Arsenal was massive, hand on heart I probably would have took a draw before the game, so to get three points was a massive step towards the fans believing in Moyes ability to do the job.
We're not doing bad at all now, considering the start. City and Chelsea seem to be finding the season harder so far, despite every man and his dog rating them way above us after SAF's retirement.
Seems to be some romanticism about these performances because we got the wins.
City and Chelsea, we hit them with 2 good attacks early on whilst they had all of the ball. We were then helpless as we tried to fend off wave after wave of attack and we had nothing to stop it, inevitably letting them back in the game.
Newcastle we played well for 20 minutes then proceeded to not create a chance for the rest of the game and struggle to string any passes together, having to defend our own penalty box, including De Gea clearing one off the line, before Cleverley curled one in from a 30 yard cross to kill the game.
I was thinking more about our starts to those games where we attacked with intensity from the start
Which raises another of our issues - we tend to go ahead then ease up - there are few games where I feel we are relentlessly going for goals - maybe it will result in a more rested squad but I expect lots more one goal winning margins
I don't see how defending a 1-0 lead for three-quarters of the game results in a more rested squad. I would have thought the opposite was true.
Which is great to see. In the newbies even a win was seen as a negative at times. Anytime I defended Moyes it was like I'd defend Hitler himself.
For me Moyes was going to come good, you could see the good work he had done at Everton, it wasn't a fluke.
Its going to take a couple of seasons. It will be 2 steps forward then 1 step back for a while. Even now its really far too early to know how Moyes will do. He is working with someone else's team and someone else's vision.
Thanks for the reply. I don't want to bore you as I responded to Cina further above and made the bulk of my points there. I suppose we do disagree on the quality of our squad, in this case. I'm a firm believer that it's generally excellent. A creative midfielder and a quality wide player, combined with a progressive approach and plenty of youth and I think this squad is capable of anything. I thought it last year and I still believe that now.
"Top quality" is always a sticky spot as definitions vary. However, I look at the Dortmund side that marched to the CL finals and I still don't think, man for man, they are on "another level." I think their playing style is, not the personnel. I would happily suggest that Carrick is "top level." The guy has been a mainstay in a team that has been in 3 CL finals, winning one, over the past 6 seasons. He's been the most consistent midfielder in the Premier League for two seasons. Then there's Evans. On a defensive level, he's better than the much lauded, much overhyped Mats Hummels, for example. He's turned into a rock at the back for us. When we can actually form a consistent partnership between him and Vidic I think he will get the credit and reputation he deserves. Right now, Nani and Valencia aren't playing to the level that they were. But still, these are two proven, quality footballers. And as far as the Premier League goes, Nani in particular is still comparatively better than the majority of his counterparts.
I agree, Moyes needs some cash to improve the midfield. We can all agree on that one. But in the mean time, I fully expect an improvement and the beginning of a identity as the season progresses. Surely you expect that, too?
Ha, there's no need to thank me for replying, it was a good post.
We're gonna disagree over Carrick, I don't think he's real top class. Would he get into the Bayern or Barca teams? No chance I think. Personally, I don't think he's better than Alonso at his best either. It's a bit harsh on Carrick as he is an excellent player, I just don't think he is at that level. Compare him to Scholes and Keane, for example, and I think you see the gap between very good and the very best.
I agree that Hummels is overrated but he does have more natural talent than Evans. Evans is a very good player but if we compare him to Vidic and Ferdinand at his best I again think you can see a gap in quality.
As for Valencia and Nani, would you disagree that the likes of Ribery, Robben and Di Maria are a step above them?
I agree that I'd want to see the beginning of an identity under Moyes this season but I suspect the signs will be more subtle than many will want. Don't get me wrong, I'm no Moyes fanboy and I'm certainly not convinced he's the right man for the job. It's just that, of all the facets I'll be judging him on, style of play is the one I'd be most patient on.
Can't understand how some of our fans still don't see Carrick as top player. Just how?
By top player I mean the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Keane, Scholes, Pirlo, Schweinsteiger, etc. Do you seriously think Carrick has been as good as any of them are/were? Putting Carrick at the top level of CMS seriously devalues what that term means. I wouldn't say Alonso was an absolute top player, but he has certainly been better than Carrick over the course of his career. I really think you'd have to be biased past the point of reason to put Carrick at that level. A very good player, certainly. As good in his position as the likes of Rooney and RvP are in theirs? That's ludicrous.
you do talk shit sometimes, sort of like the term pixel peeping in photography.....
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