Moyes So Far!

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Sultan said:
I'm also not so keen on defensive subs when we're 1-0 up. In years past when teams pressed us at Old Trafford we generally scored on the break. We nearly paid the price in the last few minutes.
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I thought subs were good. Kagawa wasn't playing good, so Giggs added some stability, while Fellaini helped us in the end with his presence.

They were defensive subs, but Arsenal was attacking, and those subs helped us limiting Arsenal in only 2 chances from crosses, while on the other side we could have scoref with Rooney and Smalling. As much ad I would have liked to see Adnan, I think Giggs justified that he was the right sub. While defending isn't the preferred option, at times is the right one and I guess would have happened with SAF too. Many times we sit deep when we got a goal against Arsenal. Of couse against lesser teams it shouldn't happen, but for today I think they were correct.
 
Seems everyone has learnt a lot about each other since that 4-1 loss at City. Moyes is showing more tactical nous, using suitable team selections, ensuring his two star men upfront are fresh and fit and now picking up vital results.

I know most were joking, but those who doubted our credentials as TOP 4? contenders, seriously?

This group of players is a group of champions barring Fellaini. They know how to win football matches.

I still have doubts over our style of play in terms of winning the league and progressing far in Europe, but I don't doubt our ability to challenge for the title and qualify for Europe.

The energy the whole team showed today is the route we need to take. It's a long process instilling that kind of philosophy though so it's not something I expect to see week in and out.
 
The Neviller said:
It's not at all harsh. It's a valid observation and a suggestion that I hope his slight negaitivity is simply a symptom of him settling in and not a hint at the ethos he'll bring here with him.

I'm happy with the result and happy with the improvements we've made of late, I just hope we're more positive in big games going forward. Don't you?
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I would hope we are more positive with the right personnel yes. But if we're lining up with the likes of Valencia, Carrick, Fellaini and Jones in midfield they are all defensive players and are always going to soak up the pressure in situations like today. In fact I think even if we brought on Januzaj and Nani we'd still have sat back and held out for the 1-0. We could not let that lead slip.
 
shaggy said:
I would hope we are more positive with the right personnel yes. But if we're lining up with the likes of Valencia, Carrick, Fellaini and Jones in midfield they are all defensive players and are always going to soak up the pressure in situations like today. In fact I think even if we brought on Januzaj and Nani we'd still have sat back and held out for the 1-0. We could not let that lead slip.
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That's harshly critical of the personnel we had out today. How dare you accuse Moyes of sending out a defensive line-up.

You see where this is going?
 
I didn't tink we shut up shop. We lost a large degree of control over the game when we had to bring Cleverley on and don't think giving Arsenal more space to try and get up the pitch would have been a good idea at all. They'd have just passed it around us.

The only thing I didn't get (again) was bringing Giggs on for Kagawa. I mean, yeah, Kagawa wasn't givein us enough protection on the left, but as soon as Giggs came on, we had literally no protection on the left. Arsenal had three openings because Giggs just wasn't anywhere to be seen, while Kagawa was at least occupying the space. Could easily have cost us the game.

Van Persie wasn't offering much at the point he came off because we were just lofting it up the pitch. Fellaini came on and gave us an out ball and made seeing out the game a bit easier, so didn't see the problem there.

Overall thought we did a bit of a number on them tactically. All of their supposed danger players were somewhere between not really in the game and looking like they'd been hit by a train. While both our wings caused them problems, Van Persie was getting on the ball and turning and Rooney the same.

If we'd not had to change when Vidic went off I reckon we might have won more comfortably.

I've not really had a problem with Moyes. I think he's generally picked the right teams outside of taking far too long to realise Rio wasn't up to standard anymore. There's been some fecking god awful performances from some of the players in certain games, but it seems to be coming together a bit now. Maybe just time needed to adjust.
 
I'm 99% on the Moyes wagon now.

Was frustrated he took so long to bench Rio and fix our defence problems, but now i feel he is definitely on the right way.
 
I thought we started to defend far too deep at times in the second half, but the only thing I didn't really like was sending on Fellaini and lumping the ball up at him. I think Moyes will gradually move away from that as he becomes more comfortable and settled with the mindset of going after the game rather than trying not to be beaten.
 
I think without the Fellaini sub we would have had bigger trouble, Arsenal were putting us under increasing pressure and just having a big target man helped get us out. He did well taking up good positions giving us an outlet and breathing space.
 
We were lumping the ball up anyway though, that's the thing. He just brought someone on for it to hit.

If he'd brought on say, Hernandez or Janujaz, we'd have just carried on lumping it up all the same, and we'd have been more vulnerable

I really don't understand what Giggs offers as a sub in these games though. He comes on, Arsenal suddenly have buckets of room in the area of the pitch he's supposed to be playing in! Pretty sure the exact same thing happened against Southampton.
 
Brightonian said:
By the hour mark, United had been the more threatening and had the better chances. But Arsenal dominated the last half hour, and probably evened it up in terms of chances. Says a lot, though, that their most dangerous creative player was Sagna. Ramsey, Ozil and Cazorla were all surprisingly toothless.
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Regarding the last half hour, I don't read too much into it in terms of them being a better team than us as such. I know that's not what you were implying but it's a very common occurrence for the team with nothin to lose to be parked in the oppositions half. I thought we played brilliantly today and I think one thing that is to Moyes' credit is the fitness of our players. In previous big games we've played a more organised tactic that sees less running and more holding space to soak up pressure which as a spectator can be quite fraustrating and nail biting. Today, we played with loads of energy even at then end, with high pressure all over the field closing down quickly and not giving them an inch to create.
 
Moyes team selection was spot on. Carrick and Jones in the middle did a excellent job in the first half. Losing Vidic wasn't good but Jones was the right partner to Evans. When Clev come on we lost a bit quality in midfield. Giggs for Kagawa was ok, I personally had preferred Nani or Januzaj but I can live with that decision. Fellaini did ok and was the right option when RVP was getting tired.

All in all this was probably Moyes hardest test and he came on top on almost every decision he had to do. 8/10.

My only concern is that when Jones shifted to CB then we lost the midfield battle, from nearly 50% possession on the first half to 35%in the second, that's worrying. That he used Clev instead of a £27m player isn't a good sign when our quality in midfield dropped so significantly after one sub.



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Rory 7 said:
I don't think we are assuming it, in my case I just have a feeling we can get it together. I really don't see a team of Champions (which is what we are) continuing to go on through the rest of the season the way we have started. Moyes is finding his feet, the team are beginning to find form and our fixture list isn't as scary as Aug through to Oct. We've reasons to be optimistic...
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Ahem
 
7even said:
Moyes team selection was spot on. Carrick and Jones in the middle did a excellent job in the first half. Losing Vidic wasn't good but Jones was the right partner to Evans. When Clev come on we lost a bit quality in midfield. Giggs for Kagawa was ok, I personally had preferred Nani or Januzaj but I can live with that decision. Fellaini did ok and was the right option when RVP was getting tired.

All in all this was probably Moyes hardest test and he came on top on almost every decision he had to do. 8/10.

My only concern is that when Jones shifted to CB then we lost the midfield battle, from nearly 50% possession on the first half to 35%in the second, that's worrying. That he used Clev instead of a £27m player isn't a good sign when our quality in midfield dropped so significantly after one sub.



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The possession stats changed significantly from the moment we scored. While I don't think Cleverley performed that well, the pattern of play had already changed by then. Wenger also rearranged his team in the 2nd half so that they stretched the pitch far more than they had in the first half.
 
Moyes was my absolute first choice to replace Fergie and old posts would prove that as I felt not only was he a workaholic like Fergie but also he had the fear factor and integrity to control the dressing room...Integrity that a certain Jose does not have....not to mention Moyes would always have Fergie in the background giving him invaluable advise......But..I must admit that after our first nine games or so I was thinking we had made a huge mistake as Moyes just didn't seem to have any notion of how to dominate weaker teams and seemed only clued in on how to tactially cope with being on the side of the dominated team......but I just simply could not be happier that he is getting it right and that we beat Arsenal......he will be a legend here...His choice to play Jones instead of Cleverley in midfield was a masterstroke and something Fergie probably would not have done against Arsenal
 
I think Moyes said it best in one of the interviews. He is learning the various player combinations that work best as he goes along and is getting a good feel for appropriate startings XI s that work best for different scenarios. If he manages to tweak it a bit more, I think we will be in very good form and could go on run that could get us back to the top, especially as Arsenal and Liverpool are likely to drop points as some of the top clubs begin to play one another.
 
Ringo 07 said:
Moyes was my absolute first choice to replace Fergie and old posts would prove that as I felt not only was he a workaholic like Fergie but also he had the fear factor and integrity to control the dressing room...Integrity that a certain Jose does not have....not to mention Moyes would always have Fergie in the background giving him invaluable advise......But..I must admit that after our first nine games or so I was thinking we had made a huge mistake as Moyes just didn't seem to have any notion of how to dominate weaker teams and seemed only clued in on how to tactially cope with being on the side of the dominated team......but I just simply could not be happier that he is getting it right and that we beat Arsenal......he will be a legend here...His choice to play Jones instead of Cleverley in midfield was a masterstroke and something Fergie probably would not have done against Arsenal
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Can you back this up with evidence?
 
Raoul said:
I think Moyes said it best in one of the interviews. He is learning the various player combinations that work best as he goes along and is getting a good feel for appropriate startings XI s that work best for different scenarios. If he manages to tweak it a bit more, I think we will be in very good form and could go on run that could get us back to the top, especially as Arsenal and Liverpool are likely to drop points as some of the top clubs begin to play one another.
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Tend to agree Raoul, we also need to remember that the season only eleven games old. Moyes and the team need some bedding in as well as the obvious new additions at some point. Our run of late is encouraging and hopefully shut up the critics. What's struck me with Moyes is he's gone about it his new role with great respect and dignity. His TV interviews have been excellent and he gets his point over well with no showboating, shows a man who knows what he's doing. His biggest coup so far is not the win yesterday but how he's got Rooney back onside and playing out of his skin and this deserves a lot of credit to him and the player.

I don't expect miracles with the current squad but he's learning and it's good to see the club as a whole have got behind him as I wouldn't have wished to be in his shoes taking over after the Maestro..! (Well actually I would as the pay would've been nice for a month) ;)
 
Pexbo said:
Regarding the last half hour, I don't read too much into it in terms of them being a better team than us as such. I know that's not what you were implying but it's a very common occurrence for the team with nothin to lose to be parked in the oppositions half. I thought we played brilliantly today and I think one thing that is to Moyes' credit is the fitness of our players. In previous big games we've played a more organised tactic that sees less running and more holding space to soak up pressure which as a spectator can be quite fraustrating and nail biting. Today, we played with loads of energy even at then end, with high pressure all over the field closing down quickly and not giving them an inch to create.
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Agreed 100%. We showed before the goal that we could keep the ball easily enough against them if we needed to, after all. But it wouldn't have been a good game plan once we were leading. And as you say, it would've been unrealistic to expect such an in-form Arsenal not to be banging on the door in the last 10/15 minutes.

What matters is that we played each phase of the game - comfortably dominating at the start until we got our reward, controlling for the rest of the first half, staying solid and sensible until late on (riding out the potentially disastrous loss of Vidic) and keeping them at arm's length when they made their last push - perfectly. You don't get a clean sheet against Arsenal at the moment without doing that.

The fitness of the players, yes, and more than anything else the fitness of Rooney. He looks practically 18 again busting a gut for 90 minutes like that.
 
Someone said:
The thing i'm pleased about the most is that he clearly has the players on his side now, they're playing for him and believing in his methods, that was a worry for me after the bad start, but now i've no doubt that they're 100% committed to the cause, that's half the job done as far as i'm concerned.
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100x this.

We knew Moyes could mastermind an upset and grind out a win, he did that regularly with Everton. There's no coincidence there are shades of a midtable side in the way he went about it.

One big question was whether he could get the same trust, discipline and commitment from our players, whether they respected him, whether they were ready to work so hard for each other...

All that is out of the way. It's a big step forward in my book.
 
Ringo 07 said:
His choice to play Jones instead of Cleverley in midfield was a masterstroke and something Fergie probably would not have done against Arsenal
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The next step, for me, is obviously the results, but the brand of football we play from here on out. I won't lie, some of our tactics have horrified me this season - the 442 with Rooney cemented up top alongside Van Persie and the barrage of Evra crosses, mainly - and I still question whether Moyes is the man to take this team forward. When Sir Alex left I expected improvement. I did. People bleat on about this often imaginary 'fear factor' yet fail to recognise that it was 11 brilliant footballers hitting the back of the net each week. That was the fear. Our football has been stale, static and sometimes dire for two seasons now and I believe Sir Alex left at the right time. I wanted and still want Moyes to rectify this. I want him to implement a vision, a clear tactic and identity that is both successful and attractive to watch.

Yesterday was brilliant, and the set up was appropriate given the circumstances, hence I've praised both Valencia and Kagawa even though they weren't offensively great. However, will this always be the case? Will Moyes always shut up shop and make us defend the way he did at Everton? I'm not sure. If that is the case, then I don't really think we are improving or progressing into a more progressive football side that can get the best out of it's wonderfully talented footballers and not just a few of them.

Like I said, yesterday was spot on. We're back winning games. But hopefully we can be more expansive, keep hold of the ball, and actually see some kind of difference from the negative tactics we've seen over the past few years. Ideally, we don't really want to play Phil Jones in central midfield to 'do a job' on Ozil. We want teams to alter their shape to prevent our own players from scoring. We'll need a transfer window or two, so this will take time providing it doesn't go majorly downhill from here, but I'm hoping there is more to Moyes at Manchester United than what we seen yesterday.
 
Kag said:
The next step, for me, is obviously the results, but the brand of football we play from here on out. I won't lie, some of our tactics have horrified me this season - the 442 with Rooney cemented up top alongside Van Persie and the barrage of Evra crosses, mainly - and I still question whether Moyes is the man to take this team forward. When Sir Alex left I expected improvement. I did. People bleat on about this often imaginary 'fear factor' yet fail to recognise that it was 11 brilliant footballers hitting the back of the net each week. That was the fear. Our football has been stale, static and sometimes dire for two seasons now and I believe Sir Alex left at the right time. I wanted and still want Moyes to rectify this. I want him to implement a vision, a clear tactic and identity that is both successful and attractive to watch.

Yesterday was brilliant, and the set up was appropriate given the circumstances, hence I've praised both Valencia and Kagawa even though they weren't offensively great. However, will this always be the case? Will Moyes always shut up shop and make us defend the way he did at Everton? I'm not sure. If that is the case, then I don't really think we are improving or progressing into a more progressive football side that can get the best out of it's wonderfully talented footballers and not just a few of them.

Like I said, yesterday was spot on. We're back winning games. But hopefully we can be more expansive, keep hold of the ball, and actually see some kind of difference from the negative tactics we've seen over the past few years. Ideally, we don't really want to play Phil Jones in central midfield to 'do a job' on Ozil. We want teams to alter their shape to prevent our own players from scoring. We'll need a transfer window or two, so this will take time providing it doesn't go majorly downhill from here, but I'm hoping there is more to Moyes at Manchester United than what we seen yesterday.
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The tactics are a concern of course, but after the bad start you can't blame him for focusing more on results, long term i think our brand of football will get much better.
 
Kag said:
The next step, for me, is obviously the results, but the brand of football we play from here on out. I won't lie, some of our tactics have horrified me this season - the 442 with Rooney cemented up top alongside Van Persie and the barrage of Evra crosses, mainly - and I still question whether Moyes is the man to take this team forward. When Sir Alex left I expected improvement. I did. People bleat on about this often imaginary 'fear factor' yet fail to recognise that it was 11 brilliant footballers hitting the back of the net each week. That was the fear. Our football has been stale, static and sometimes dire for two seasons now and I believe Sir Alex left at the right time. I wanted and still want Moyes to rectify this. I want him to implement a vision, a clear tactic and identity that is both successful and attractive to watch.

Yesterday was brilliant, and the set up was appropriate given the circumstances, hence I've praised both Valencia and Kagawa even though they weren't offensively great. However, will this always be the case? Will Moyes always shut up shop and make us defend the way he did at Everton? I'm not sure. If that is the case, then I don't really think we are improving or progressing into a more progressive football side that can get the best out of it's wonderfully talented footballers and not just a few of them.

Like I said, yesterday was spot on. We're back winning games. But hopefully we can be more expansive, keep hold of the ball, and actually see some kind of difference from the negative tactics we've seen over the past few years. Ideally, we don't really want to play Phil Jones in central midfield to 'do a job' on Ozil. We want teams to alter their shape to prevent our own players from scoring. We'll need a transfer window or two, so this will take time providing it doesn't go majorly downhill from here, but I'm hoping there is more to Moyes at Manchester United than what we seen yesterday.
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Yesterday showed he has got the players onside and these are the current champions, so it won't go downhill.

As far as the rest is concerned you agree yourself it will take a couple of windows so I guess you will have to be patient. Otherwise you'll be banging on every week about how you fear he may just want to make us play like Everton. You have nothing to go on to dispel or confirm that and won't for some time.
 
antohan said:
Yesterday showed he has got the players onside and these are the current champions, so it won't go downhill.

As far as the rest is concerned you agree yourself it will take a couple of windows so I guess you will have to be patient. Otherwise you'll be banging on every week about how you fear he may just want to make us play like Everton. You have nothing to go on to dispel or confirm that and won't for some time.
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Hm. If he starts telling Rooney to play right up top like he did against Sunderland, Southampton and Stoke then we may well find ourselves dropping points again after the international break. Yesterday was brilliant, but our next 4 games are tough. The players, I'm sure, have always been onside. Our problems haven't been down to attitude, they generally stem from the tactics and the sheer distance between the players when on the pitch. We've been better of late, though.

I agree, there is little to confirm or dispel anything, but I do want to see a push in the right direction. If we go 1 nil up against Everton or Spurs and sit back the way in which we did yesterday then this exact thread will be busy. The reason everybody is delighted about yesterday is the result and the magnitude of the game. Ideally, many others and I will want to see some more chances, passing and possession in the bigger games.

Also, I did mention that the window is needed, but I don't think it's that important. Southampton have an identity, they press and they keep the ball very well with inferior players. Moyes doesn't need a transfer window to improve the style of play. That's down to his own intuition. And that is where I worry.
 
Kag said:
Hm. If he starts telling Rooney to play right up top like he did against Sunderland, Southampton and Stoke then we may well find ourselves dropping points again after the international break. Yesterday was brilliant, but our next 4 games are tough. The players, I'm sure, have always been onside. Our problems haven't been down to attitude, they generally stem from the tactics and the sheer distance between the players when on the pitch. We've been better of late, though.
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I think we will find Rooney will be pleased with his form and status and will gradually ease himself into his comfort zone, which is the selfless pursuit of a win for the team and the points to reach the top of the table, not throwing his toys out of the pram.
 
The Neviller said:
Right, so because it happened before we should be happy to watch it all the time? I haven't particularly had a go at Moyes, I replied to a post that I agreed with. Moyes, Fergie, Jesus, whoever, I don't care who it is that is managing us, I don't want to watch us deliberately hang on late in games and sit back like a smaller team playing a bigger side, against Arsenal, Southampton or whoever else because eventually it will cost us. It didn't today and it's a great result, but it has already this season and I hope it isnt a trend.

How in the name of holy fecking Christ is that a harsh criticism?
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That's not harsh criticism, least not as far as I'm concerned anyway.

We do deliberately hang on late in games, poor tactics which I've no doubt will inevitably result in us losing more matches than we need to. In the past we've not only hung on but either won or increased our lead by turning up the attacking volume in the last 15 mins or so....we were renowned for it. Fergie used to stand on the touchline almost forcing the players to attack and it usually paid off. After all, attack is the best form of defence isn't it.

The most worrying thing for me is that now we are starting to look like an Everton side but with Manchester United players. I just don't want us to play like Everton, I want to see us playing like Manchester United.
 
Red Defence said:
That's not harsh criticism, least not as far as I'm concerned anyway.

We do deliberately hang on late in games, poor tactics which I've no doubt will inevitably result in us losing more matches than we need to. In the past we've not only hung on but either won or increased our lead by turning up the attacking volume in the last 15 mins or so....we were renowned for it. Fergie used to stand on the touchline almost forcing the players to attack and it usually paid off. After all, attack is the best form of defence isn't it.

The most worrying thing for me is that now we are starting to look like an Everton side but with Manchester United players. I just don't want us to play like Everton, I want to see us playing like Manchester United.
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Yeah, settling for the one goal lead never ever happened last season with Fergie. Except like, several times.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/manchester-united-vs-liverpool.364501/page-48#post-12815411


Nick 0208 Ldn said:
This is so needless, we nullified them by pressing them back yet Fergie has now opted for the tactical opposite.
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Drifter said:
We are being battered.
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Moyes has been a bit unlucky with injuries lately, Vidic going off definitely upset our rhythm.
 
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