Moyes So Far!

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It's quite a sad state of affairs really isn't it. I think we all knew life wasn't going to be smooth sailing post Fergie but I for one never imagined it was going to be this bad.

We all know Moyes is not going to be sacked anytime soon, certainly not this season. Whether I think he's the right man for the job or not is irrelevant now. So the question remains...do we as fans think he will turn it around? We've got no choice but to believe he will, because as I mentioned, he ain't going anywhere!
 
ItsEssexRob said:
And who would you be getting in? Do you want to be setting the precedent that if the manager doesn't hit the ground running in filling the current biggest club job in the world football will be sacked before a single season?
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There are available (or that can be available) managers. There isn't any precedent. Like in any other job, if you're not good enough, you get fired. Moyes until now not that he hasn't been good enough, but has been one of the worst managers I have ever seen in a top club.

By Christmass this should end in one way or another. Either he should change things considerably (I am not requiring a big series of win or anything extraordinary, but just some little signs that he can do better than the boring negative tactics) or he has to go.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
Who are perhaps not, or not yet the required level for what United need. Smalling in particular looks weak this season.
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Evans is easily good enough. Jones, maybe not yet but I think Smalling has made great strides. I don't like him at right back but he's solid enough in the middle.
 
Revan said:
Juve bounced back after 5 years, but that was partly because Milan and Inter became a bit shit. On EPL, we have two teams with unlimited money in City/Chelsea, a good team in Arsenal and two teams who are recently doing good on Spurs/LFC.
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Juventus will never be a good example for the simple reason that their rebuilding brought them a net loss of between 250 and 300 Mil. € over the years.

Missing out CL alone is a massive loss of money, which would not be tolerated by the United board and while that happened to Bayern Munich, they still easily remained the biggest German club because of having no real rival. Would that happen now, it would actually cause more damage to them, because it would close the gap between them and Dortmund quite significantly.

There should be no doubt about it. Finishing outside the top 4 should be the end of the "era" Moyes, but it is still early in the season.
 
holyland red said:
Juve were relegated after a bribe scandal and lost almost all their top players. We lost 3 games, including City and Liverpool FFS. We drew a football match this afternoon. Shock. Horror.
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Obviously if we start playing good and get results we'll look and laugh at this thread, and I'll be happy to be called an idiot. But as far as I know, the debate was can United cope without UCL and will we bounce back ASAP if we don't make the top 4? And consequently should the manager who lead us to an outside top 4 finish continue with the job of taking us back to top. Right?

Who cares about 4-8 games anyway? People care that the situation looks shit and Moyes seems completely unable to do anything right. Maybe things will change. Do I want it? Yes, same as anybody. Do I expect it though? No.
 
I find it incredible how he doesn't appear to be learning from his mistakes at all. Can't just keep doing the sane thing and expect the players to fix things
 
Bestie07 said:
Yup, the arrogance of quite a few people absolutely astounds me. Klopp is building his legacy at Dortmund, why would he leave it midway.
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It only came up in the thread because someone said they were not a feeder club, but they have not been able to hang onto their best players and I don't see that changing any time soon.

I have never had or expressed any desire to have klopp at utd.
 
Revan said:
Results? Check.
Performances? Check.
Negative tactics? Check.

Signings? Check.
Players not looking arsed for what they're doing ? Check.
Stupid comments? Check.
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2004–05 FA Premier League We had a mere 15 points from 11 games . 13 points from 8 games

2010-2011 FA Premier League Liverpool had 6 points from 8 games Under Hodgson

2013-2014 FA Premier League We have 11 points from 8 games. If we win our next 2 games vs struggling stoke and Norwich we will already be better off than we were in 2005 (a season we managed 2 finish 3rd after a start with awful football and results) and far better off than Hodgson's Liverpool at a similar stage.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
2004–05 FA Premier League We had a mere 15 points from 11 games . 13 points from 8

2010-2011 FA Premier League Liverpool had 6 points from 8 games Under Hodgson

2013-2014 FA Premier League We have 11 points from 8 games. If we win our next 2 games vs struggling stoke and Norwich we will already be better off than we were in 2005 (a season we managed 2 finish 3rd after a start with awful football and results) and far better of than Roy's Liverpool.
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Until you spelled it out for me just then it hadn't clicked in my head that after 8 games we had more points in 2004/05 than we have today. That's the same 2004/05 season in which we managed to make made David Bentley look like England's answer to Luis Figo...
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
2004–05 FA Premier League We had a mere 15 points from 11 games . 13 points from 8 games

2010-2011 FA Premier League Liverpool had 6 points from 8 games Under Hodgson

2013-2014 FA Premier League We have 11 points from 8 games. If we win our next 2 games vs struggling stoke and Norwich we will already be better off than we were in 2005 (a season we managed 2 finish 3rd after a start with awful football and results) and far better off than Hodgson's Liverpool at a similar stage.
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Which means that while we are better than Hodgson's Liverpool, we are worse than in our worst season since God's know when. Let's see if we win against Stoke and Norwich before we make the calculation. Out of curiosity, were you one of those people who predicted 15 points from the next 5 games after we lost to City?
 
We are in the middle of October and yet to win two consecutive games in the league and generally have played crap football. Its been a terrible start, no two ways about it.
 
Revan said:
Which means that while we are better than Hodgson's Liverpool, we are worse than in our worst season since God's know when. Let's see if we win against Stoke and Norwich before we make the calculation.
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The thing is we are not yet worse than our worst season since 2000 yet, at the same stage and we are no where near as bad as 'Woy's much hated Pool' which was my earlier point.

Revan said:
Out of curiosity, were you one of those people who predicted 15 points from the next 5 games after we lost to City?
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I highly doubt that I was. I honestly don't remember though
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
We are in the middle of October and yet to win two consecutive games in the league and generally have played crap football. Its been a terrible start, no two ways about it.
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It's terrible it's true. But we've ever been worse. I feel we are a few games away from earning the right to really be panicked and disillusioned.
 
He's fecking stinking the place up at the moment, doesn't look like the players are truly giving it their all for him and that was always a major concern.
Don't think I've seen a manager make so many shit substitutions in such a short period of time. Struggling to see any positives so far.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
The thing is we are not yet worse than our worst season since 2000 yet, at the same stage and we are now whre near as bas as 'Woy's much hated Pool' which was my earlier point.
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How? We have less points than the last time we were a bit shit, right? The performances have been diabolic, definitely worse than in 2005.

While 'worse than Woy' might be a slightly exageration, you have also to measure the quality of the sides. Woy took a team that finished sixth (or seventh) and made them a lot more shitter. Moyes took a team of Champions.
 
My biggest issue with him is his conservative approach. It's not the way Fergie won so many titles

If you are 1-0 up against a team that is below your level, you don't try to see it that win, you try to win 2-0.

With a lesser team, percentage wise the conservative approach might earn you more points, with a team like ours you win more points by finishing the game off. Sure, you might slip up occasionally but you'll gain more points over all and that's what matters.
 
Revan said:
How? We have less points than the last time we were a bit shit, right? The performances have been diabolic, definitely worse than in 2005.

While 'worse than Woy' might be a slightly exageration, you have also to measure the quality of the sides. Woy took a team that finished sixth (or seventh) and made them a lot more shitter. Moyes took a team of Champions.
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SAF took a team of champions and started with a stinker in 2004/2005 with the Smith's in midfield. I'm just trying to make people not go over board with their disappointment in Moyes.
 
Pexbo said:
My biggest issue with him is his conservative approach. It's not the way Fergie won so many titles

If you are 1-0 up against a team that is below your level, you don't try to see it that win, you try to win 2-0.

With a lesser team, percentage wise the conservative approach might earn you more points, with a team like ours you win more points by finishing the game off. Sure, you might slip up occasionally but you'll gain more points over all and that's what matters.
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I agree 100%. His cageyness is the worry. IMO it is why he drops points.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
It's terrible it's true. But we've ever been worse. I feel we are a few games away from earning the right to really be panicked and disillusioned.
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I suppose it depends on expectations doesn't it? If you think, even without Fergie, with a title winning squad United should be challenging for the title then you'd expect us to beat West Brom and Southampton at home. Not because West Brom and Southampton aren't good sides but because to challenge for the title you really need to be easily better than both.

If 2004/05, third placed and left behind by Chelsea and Arsenal, is the benchmark then I suppose we're doing ok. But in 2004/05 we were coming off a season in which we'd been comfortably left behind by the so-called Invincibles and were nowhere near as strong squad wise as we are now. Even in centre midfield we're better now than we were in 2004/05 (although even the aging Roy Keane would easily get into today's first XI). Why then can't fans expect more than what we're getting? Especially when a lot of the problem is, I feel, the way in which the squad is being managed in terms of tactics and subs unlike in 2004/05 when the squad strength itself was the key thing.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
SAF took a team of champions and started with a stinker in 2004/2005.
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First point. Arsenal walked with the league title the season before 2004/2005.

The other point that has been repeating every now and often. We know what Sir Alex was capable of doing, and while at times his result weren't good, we know that it was only a matter of time. On the other side we don't know what Moyes is capable of doing (or worse, we know it from his time at Everton) and just because an infinitely better manager turned things right after struggling a bit doesn't mean that Moyes will do the same. Irrelevant anyway considering that you are comparing Fergie's worse season in about two decades with Moyes single season.

Finally, people expected Moyes to be negative, boring, sign Fellaini, be very cautious, settle for draw and not attack in order to get three points. So far Moyes has been negative, boring, signed Fellaini, was very cautious, settles for draw and don't attack in order to get three points. The only surprise is that even the biggest pesimists expected a bit more points, which makes things even worse. So pretty much, impossible to expect things to go right, when in those 3 months (four if you count the pre-season) he has done the same things his critics expected.
 
Revan said:
First point. Arsenal walked with the league title the season before 2004/2005.

The other point that has been repeating every now and often. We know what Sir Alex was capable of doing, and while at times his result weren't good, we know that it was only a matter of time. On the other side we don't know what Moyes is capable of doing (or worse, we know it from his time at Everton) and just because an infinitely better manager turned things right after struggling a bit doesn't mean that Moyes will do the same. Irrelevant anyway considering that you are comparing Fergie's worse season in about two decades with Moyes single season.

Finally, people expected Moyes to be negative, boring, sign Fellaini, be very cautious, settle for draw and not attack in order to get three points. So far Moyes has been negative, boring, signed Fellaini, was very cautious, settles for draw and don't attack in order to get three points. The only surprise is that even the biggest pesimists expected a bit more points, which makes things even worse. So pretty much, impossible to expect things to go right, when in those 3 months (four if you count the pre-season) he has done the same things his critics expected.
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You mean the sterling qualities that made him such a success at Everton? fecking hell. I've even heard that the club is sticking posters up at Old Trafford with Fergie's quote about "your job is to stand by the new manager". If that's true, heaven help us.
 
Worth noting what Pochettino has done to Southampton in such a short space of time - their passing game and pressing game has improved immeasurably, to the extent he's got Southampton to play us off the park at Old Trafford twice already, with a bunch of players nowhere near the quality we possess. Given we had a much larger draw and pick of Europe's top and most exciting coaches, it's such a disappointment we've managed to take the football we played last season which everyone was complaining about and make it worse.
 
Moriarty said:
You mean the sterling qualities that made him such a success at Everton? fecking hell. I've even heard that the club is sticking posters up at Old Trafford with Fergie's quote about "your job is to stand by the new manager". If that's true, heaven help us.
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To be fair, I have always rated Moyes job at Everton. He was boring and negative but he got results. What I think is difficult (impossible) is to get results with United by playing those tactics. That's a big problem and from the beginning I have said that I don't care that much about his lack of trophies and European (in)experience, but his mentality is a bit to worry for. Cause like in anything else, it is a difficult thing to change it. There were posters here who said that he was in that way at Everton because of lack of funds, but he has continue here in the same way he left there.
 
Revan said:
To be fair, I have always rated Moyes job at Everton. He was boring and negative but he got results. What I think is difficult (impossible) is to get results with United by playing those tactics. That's a big problem and from the beginning I have said that I don't care that much about his lack of trophies and European (in)experience, but his mentality is a bit to worry for. Cause like in anything else, it is a difficult thing to change it. There were posters here who said that he was in that way at Everton because of lack of funds, but he has continue here in the same way he left there.
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There were, but did you really buy that argument? I don't, not for a minute. But the story about the posters in the SAF stand really bothers me. Does the club really need to resort to that to get the fans on board with Moyes? It smacks of real desperation to me,
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
He's inherently a conservative manager. I think we may just have to used to it.
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It has its place but it's not the United way and never has been. Sexton tried that approach and we all know what happened. Moyes has got a squad full of attacking talent. Just look at it. Van Persie, Rooney, Nani, Hernandez, Kagawa, Januzaj, and he still looks to grind out a 1-0. It goes against everything United stands for.
 
Moriarty said:
There were, but did you really buy that argument? I don't, not for a minute. But the story about the posters in the SAF stand really bothers me. Does the club really need to resort to that to get the fans on board with Moyes? It smacks of real desperation to me,
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Well, Martinez, Pochetino, Rodgers and Laudrup managed to play attackijg football with limited teams. They didn't get results though, so here Moyes beats all of them. On the other side, I was always worried that it could be his mentality that is more defensive minded which will be destined to fail here. Still cannot be sure, but it seems so.

Now at-least he should do is make a Capello and while playing boring and defending, still to be able to win the games. Not that I want that, but better than this.

Dunno about that rumour, if that's true, then yep, we are in big trouble. Better to not thing about it.
 
Leroy The Red said:
He's fecking stinking the place up at the moment, doesn't look like the players are truly giving it their all for him and that was always a major concern.
Don't think I've seen a manager make so many shit substitutions in such a short period of time. Struggling to see any positives so far.
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Getting Januzaj into the team and reinvigorating Wayne Rooney are the only ones I can think of.
 
Moriarty said:
You mean the sterling qualities that made him such a success at Everton? fecking hell. I've even heard that the club is sticking posters up at Old Trafford with Fergie's quote about "your job is to stand by the new manager". If that's true, heaven help us.
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If that's true the clubs bigwigs need to ask themselves why they didn't back the new manager by spending some money sorting out centre midfield (making a number of bids for Fabregas, all of them under £40 million! :lol: Nobody could say that was a serious attempt to sure up midfield)
 
I didn't want him to get the job but after SAF choose him and he became our manager he had my full support unless he fecked up so bad and get us out of CL qualification. Judging by the last 10 seasons or so to secure CL spot a team needs to avarage 1.9 points per game over 38 games. Now we are about 1.3 points per game.

panic
 
Revan said:
Well, Martinez, Pochetino, Rodgers and Laudrup managed to play attackijg football with limited teams. They didn't get results though, so here Moyes beats all of them. On the other side, I was always worried that it could be his mentality that is more defensive minded which will be destined to fail here. Still cannot be sure, but it seems so.

Now at-least he should do is make a Capello and while playing boring and defending, still to be able to win the games. Not that I want that, but better than this.

Dunno about that rumour, if that's true, then yep, we are in big trouble. Better to not thing about it.
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It's not a rumour. There's a photo of one on another site (Republik of Mancunia). http://therepublikofmancunia.com/
 
#07 said:
If that's true the clubs bigwigs need to ask themselves why they didn't back the new manager by spending some money sorting out centre midfield (making a number of bids for Fabregas, all of them under £40 million! :lol: Nobody could say that was a serious attempt to sure up midfield)
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It was a joke. I thought they were trying to take the piss out of Barca with that low of a bid.
 
And yet, still, toughest early schedule we've had in how long? Things are obviously not going well but there's quite a bit of overreacting happening here. It was always going to be a rough ride.

No reason to compare him to Hodgson. Hodgson had a shit squad and was immediately set upon by the Liverpool faithful who thought the team should win the league. He was also still on target to keep the team in 7th when he was dismissed. It's apples and oranges.

Moyes has made positive changes. Dropping Young, Valencia and Rio and bringing in better players.

The problem remains what it has been for three years. We have one capable CM. Should be better when Cleverly gets back but he attempted to remove Felliani and push Jones up into that position. It didn't work. Jones ended up being responsible for the goal and Felliani, if anything, is good at defending set pieces. Most worrying is that Felliani fell apart when pressured. So, his poor form could get worse as other teams see this. Rooney and Felliani lost the ball in dangerous places way to often.

I hope we won't see Giggs anymore. There is no reason. I hope he's in the Young Rio category for Moyes now. He is taking note and he is making changes. If people can't see this game wasn't a step up, I don't know what they will see. We hit the post twice. Could have easily been a blowout.

But we are now in a place where teams will no longer fear us. Particularly at the end of the game. We are Mike Tyson after he was beaten. It's a different situation for the players.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
If people can't see this game wasn't a step up, I don't know what they will see. We hit the post twice. Could have easily been a blowout.
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Jesus Christ. Let's all celebrate for hitting the post twice against the mighty Southampton. How can't these simpletons see how good we are?
 
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