Moyes has to go

Moyes out?

  • Knee jerk/I object to the term knee jerk because I told you he was going to be rubbish in 2003

    Votes: 296 80.4%

  • Head in sand/My name is Baghdad Bob and everything is going to be OK

    Votes: 72 19.6%
  • Total voters
    368
  • Poll closed .
Pogue Mahone said:
No idea. I also don't know what Bolton was spending on transfers under Big Sam.

Anyway, you can't look at his career at Bolton in isolation. Perhaps if Fergie quit in 06/07 then Allardyce would have been one of the candidates? He was very highly rated at the time. Didn't have the same long-term record of PL success that Moyes has now though.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't want Big Sam anywhere near Old Trafford (and would not in 2007) but where Bolton are now is truer to their real position in the scheme of things. I doubt they will have get anywhere near that level of relative success again (I grew up there which is why I maybe fully appreciate the scale of what Alkardyce did there - compare it to the likes of Burnley and Blackpool who lasted one season).

I do see some similarities between Allardyce at Newcastle and Moyes at United. An approach which served very well at a smaller club does not necessarily translate very well. Newcastle fired Allardyce probably too soon; the question for United is whether Moyes is moving up the learning curve quickly enough. So far, it doesn't look good.
 
Adebesi said:
I agree, football has changed out of all recognition since we last went through this. There is no United way, there is just SAF's way and then us muddling through in the aftermath of that trying to find a new way.
Click to expand...

Swap Busby for SAF and that's the 70s and 80s for you.

We've some interesting times ahead if it takes us that long to find our next new way. Could happen though.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I wouldn't want Big Sam anywhere near Old Trafford (and would not in 2007) but where Bolton are now is truer to their real position in the scheme of things. I doubt they will have get anywhere near that level of relative success again (I grew up there which is why I maybe fully appreciate the scale of what Alkardyce did there - compare it to the likes of Burnley and Blackpool who lasted one season).

I do see some similarities between Allardyce at Newcastle and Moyes at United. An approach which served very well at a smaller club does not necessarily translate very well. Newcastle fired Allardyce probably too soon; the question for United is whether Moyes is moving up the learning curve quickly enough. So far, it doesn't look good.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the comparison is an interesting one. Worrying but interesting!
 
Getsme said:
Why is it so important that a manager has PL or UCL experience? If they are good enough they will adapt.
Click to expand...

To me its not that they have to have it per se. Its just hard to judge if someone is "good enough" without any experience of either.
 
Getsme said:
Comparing Moyes to Allardyce is like comparing Ferguson to Moyes.
Click to expand...

WTF is this ? :nono:

Allardyce timeline at Bolton :

Took over as Bolton manager in October 1999.
Got them promoted in 1 year.

Bolton's Premier League positions under Sam Allardyce :

2001/ 2002 : 16
2002/ 2003 : 17
2003/ 2004 : 8
2004/ 2005 : 6
2005/ 2006 : 8
2006/ 2007 : 7

It's a massive achievement to take over a small club, get them promoted to their EPL and then have them comfortably around 7th-8th position within 2 years. It' like someone taking over Brighton right now and have them finish 6th and Europa League within 5 years.

Bolton under Fat Sam were good in cups too.

In 2000 while still in the championship they reached the semi finals on the FA Cup.
The reached the final of the Carling Cup in 2004.
They reached the last 32 of the UEFA cup in 2005, something Everton never achieved in a decade under Mr. Moyes.

Allardyce managed all that on a net spend of 1m !!!!!! from 1999/2000 to 2006/2007. If Moyes has a shoe string then Sam had its aglet. Meanwhile he managed some top class international players : Youri Djorkaeff, Fernando Hierro, Nicholas Anelka, Jay Jay Okocha, Ivan Campo, Jared Borgetti, Dietmar Hamann, Hitedoshi Nakata.

Moyes timeline at Everton :

Took over a club already in the premier league mind.

2002/ 2003 : 7
2003/ 2004 : 17
2004/ 2005 : 4
2005/ 2006 : 11
2006/ 2007 : 6
2007/ 2008 : 5
2008/ 2009 : 5
2009/ 2010 : 8
2010/ 2011 : 7
2011/ 2012 : 7
2012/ 2013 : 6

His average positions once settled into Everton were around 6-7 - Almost identical to Fat Sam's at Bolton.

He never progressed in Europe even in a decade incharge. Never won a cup neither. His total net spend over 11 years was 38 million. Collate it with Fat Sam spending 1 million over 7 years and we get a clearer picture of who made most with the money.

Another thing I feel compelled to add is that Bolton is a tiny club compared to Everton. They have spent large chunks of their history in the 2nd division, 3rd division and even the 4th division. Everton meanwhile are one the giants of English football. Their haul of 9 First division titles is the 4th highest in history - behind only United, Liverpool and Arsenal. They had players of the calibre of Neville Southall, Gary Linekar, Dixie Dean, Alan Ball in the past. They are massive in comparison to Bolton so Moyes finishing around 6th-7th with Everton is much much worse than Sam finishing 7th-8th with Bolton. Sam overachieved with Bolton's history, Moyes never even tried to live up to Everton's former glory. He got them to a certain level and was unable to progress further.

Fat Sam >>>> Mr. Moyes.

Having said that neither is capable of taking the next step in expectations. Sam tanked with Newcastle and Moyes is doing the same with us.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Since when were managers judged on their achievements related to history? That's weird logic.

All that matters is what they achieve relative to the resources available to them in the here and now.
Click to expand...

Even by that logic Bolton Sam > Everton Dave. 1 million net spend in 7 years vs 38 million net spend in 11.
 
Isnt the size and history of the club a resource in its own right? Not a massive one, of course. But a player might be more tempted to play for Everton than Bolton because it is a bigger and more famous club. So maybe it gives you a little more pulling power.
 
Mauzindark, love the post, I just want to point out its not all about transfer net spend as the be all and end all, Bolton for example used to offer slightly inflated wages to some of their players, which I believe was a factor when they eventually dropped out of the league they had wage issues, and a reason they were able to aquire some of the international names you listed, again, not defending Moyes, just throwing it into the mix.
 
Colin129 said:
Like that post @Mauzindark, don't forget Moyes net spend is deflated by some big sales, like nigh on £30M for Rooney, amongst others. Did Allardyce benefit from any big sales bonuses?
Click to expand...

Ediur Gudjohnsen to Chelsea for 6m was his biggest sale. Other than that the departures were mostly free transfers. Meanwhile Dave got big money for Wayne as you rightly pointed out for 30m, Rodwell - 13m, Arteta - 10m, Lescott - 24m, Johnseon - 10m, McFadden - 7m. Dave had way more resources than Sam ever had.

BennyBlanco said:
Mauzindark, love the post, I just want to point out its not all about transfer net spend as the be all and end all, Bolton for example used to offer slightly inflated wages to some of their players, which I believe was a factor when they eventually dropped out of the league they had wage issues, and a reason they were able to aquire some of the international names you listed, again, not defending Moyes, just throwing it into the mix.
Click to expand...

I took them into consideration mate and Everton still had them beat. Everton's wages to turnover ratio was a dangerous 75 % at one time at 63m during Moyes later years. Comparing to around pre - 2007 levels when Bolton peaked at 31m during Sam's years they were almost at par than Everton's 34m. Infact Bolton's debt started increasing after Sam left and Coyle took over.


EDIT : Added SwissRamble revenue/ wages/ turnover table for evidence :

6%2BBolton%2BProfit.jpg


7%2BEverton%2BProfit.jpg


That should prove conclusively than Sam made more from less and also paid lower wages. Moyes didn't build Everton at all. Building is what Sir Alex did upon his arrival. Moyes kept Everton at break even revenue = operating cost.
 
Last edited:
Colin129 said:
Like that post @Mauzindark, don't forget Moyes net spend is deflated by some big sales, like nigh on £30M for Rooney, amongst others. Did Allardyce benefit from any big sales bonuses?
Click to expand...

Mauzindark said:
Ediur Gudjohnsen to Chelsea for 6m was his biggest sale. Other than that the departures were mostly free transfers. Meanwhile Dave got big money for Wayne as you rightly pointed out for 30m, Rodwell - 13m, Arteta - 10m, Lescott - 24m, Johnseon - 10m, McFadden - 7m. Dave had way more resources than Sam ever had.
Click to expand...

Amazing lack of logic in these two posts.

You've already mentioned the net spend of the two managers. This will have taken into account all of the above.

A wages comparison would also be helpful, mind you.
 
I think after 10 days we are all in need of a new game to comment on! We are resorting to pages of discussions (to which I have contributed) of Allardyce v Moyes....

So, will we beat the Baggies?
 
I dunno if we should be making managerial comparisons in such black and white. Fat Sam did a great job at Bolton, Moyes did a great job at Everton, Pulis did a great job at Stoke, Curbishley did a great job at Charlton. All with different scenarios and situations.
 
Mauzindark said:
Ediur Gudjohnsen to Chelsea for 6m was his biggest sale. Other than that the departures were mostly free transfers. Meanwhile Dave got big money for Wayne as you rightly pointed out for 30m, Rodwell - 13m, Arteta - 10m, Lescott - 24m, Johnseon - 10m, McFadden - 7m. Dave had way more resources than Sam ever had.
Click to expand...

This net spend thing is always a bit of a red herring, it's what RAWK use as an argument for most things whenever possible. It would be more interesting to know how much Moyes actually spent on new players vs Allardyce at Bolton.

Also, for a laugh, how about putting Pulis in the equation, although I believe they spent an awful lot at Stoke, for a relatively small club.

Can I just point out that I wouldn't want either Allardyce nor Pulis at United, but I do believe (and Mauzindark's post has demonstrated it) that Moyes was extremely overrated at Everton.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I dunno if we should be making managerial comparisons in such black and white. Fat Sam did a great job at Bolton, Moyes did a great job at Everton, Pulis did a great job at Stoke, Curbishley did a great job at Everton. All with different scenarios and situations.
Click to expand...
True but they are all in the same bracket in terms of quality.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Amazing lack of logic in these two posts.

You've already mentioned the net spend of the two managers. This will have taken into account all of the above.

A wages comparison would also be helpful, mind you.
Click to expand...

I can't work out if you deliberately play devils advocate in order to stimulate/facilitate further discussion or you are in training to be a TalkShite presenter.
 
I am pretty sure that the correlation between money spent and success actually lies in the wages department. The more a club spend on wages the more successful it is.

I am sure that this was posted on Redcafe and by that measure Moyes was only doing what he was supposed to be at Everton as they were relatively high wage payers.
 
Colin129 said:
I can't work out if you deliberately play devils advocate in order to stimulate/facilitate further discussion or you are in training to be a TalkShite presenter.
Click to expand...

I just can't help getting irritated by (and responding to) stupidity.

This idea that selling players for big sums of money somehow gets overlooked when comparing net spend is fecking loo lah. Every sale, big or small, is reflected in net spend.
 
Colin129 said:
This is a big problem.

Here is a man who has worked on a shoestring all his career suddenly spending more in 6 months on 2 players than he has spent in all of the last 10 years at Everton (alright, this might be an exaggeration, but you get my point). The guy should have an eye for a bargain, but ends up spending top money when he didn't have to & then breaks the club transfer record. The sheer arrogance of the man to come here & spend that sort of money, he's like a kid in a sweetshop, I'll have that one & that one, or a lottery winner (which he is tbf).

He should have kept his fecking feet on the ground, stuck to what he knows & eased his way into the job rather than throwing someone else's money around like there's no tomorrow when he has no experience whatsoever of spending big.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of when Joe Royle did wonders at Oldham and then was out of his depth at Everton. This is just on a bigger scale.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I just can't help getting irritated by (and responding to) stupidity.

This idea that selling players for big sums of money somehow gets overlooked when comparing net spend is fecking loo lah. Every sale, big or small, is reflected in net spend.
Click to expand...

But net spend has been discussed in various threads over many years on here, we spent years laughing at RAWK on this very subject. What's important is how much you actually spend. Spurs spent £100M in the Summer, Liverpool under Kenny spent a fortune a couple of years ago, but Spurs are no higher up the table than they were last year & Scousepool have done better since they stopped spending quite so much.
 
marukomu said:
Reminds me of when Joe Royle did wonders at Oldham and then was out of his depth at Everton. This is just on a bigger scale.
Click to expand...

I can't recall how much Royle spent but one of his predecessors was a good example (Mike Walker) - did great work at Norwich and then wasted millions at Everton (in the process royally screwing them up for the all-important first years of the premier league). Also Gerry Francis at Spurs (after good work on a budget at QPR).
 
Colin129 said:
But net spend has been discussed in various threads over many years on here, we spent years laughing at RAWK on this very subject. What's important is how much you actually spend. Spurs spent £100M in the Summer, Liverpool under Kenny spent a fortune a couple of years ago, but Spurs are no higher up the table than they were last year & Scousepool have done better since they stopped spending quite so much.
Click to expand...

I honestly don't know what your point is here? Net spend is a useful proxy for the relative spending power of different clubs. That's not open to debate, surely?

As someone else pointed out, wages seem to have a better correlation with success so they're also an important part of the picture.
 
@marukomu

And still Uncle Joe delivered Everton's last major honour, beating the biggest club in the world in an FA Cup final.
 
Colin129 said:
This net spend thing is always a bit of a red herring, it's what RAWK use as an argument for most things whenever possible. It would be more interesting to know how much Moyes actually spent on new players vs Allardyce at Bolton.

Also, for a laugh, how about putting Pulis in the equation, although I believe they spent an awful lot at Stoke, for a relatively small club.

Can I just point out that I wouldn't want either Allardyce nor Pulis at United, but I do believe (and Mauzindark's post has demonstrated it) that Moyes was extremely overrated at Everton.
Click to expand...

:lol::lol: Pulis net spend at Stoke from 2006 - 2013 is hilarious : 113m

He's even worse than 'arry who spent a net 129m from 2002 to now at Portsmouth, Southampton, Spurs ad QPR.
 
Mauzindark said:
:lol::lol: Pulis net spend at Stoke from 2006 - 2013 is hilarious : 113m

He's even worse than 'arry who spent a net 129m from 2002 to now at Portsmouth, Southampton, Spurs ad QPR.
Click to expand...

How many :lol: are you going to give Moyes when he spends a net £200m to to take United from 1st place to battling it out for 4th?
 
@manzindark

The most incredible thing is that Moyes will be given 200m this summer to add to the 65m that he has already spent. After all that and the fact that we were the champions when he took over, we will all be saying that we are making great progress if we nick 4th spot next season and Moyes will hold onto his job.

Accepting the unacceptable. Accepting the flipping ludicrous more like. Forever more such folly will be known as 'The Moyes Effect'.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
@manzindark

The most incredible thing is that Moyes will be given 200m this summer to add to the 65m that he has already spent. After all that and the fact that we were the champions when he took over, we will all be saying that we are making great progress if we nick 4th spot next season and Moyes will hold onto his job.

Accepting the unacceptable. Accepting the flipping ludicrous more like. Forever more such folly will be known as 'The Moyes Effect'.
Click to expand...

The scenario you're talking about is in no way as incredulous as you seem to think.

If you accept that the departure or Fergie will have as seismic an effect as most sensible pundits seem to think then a season outside the top four, followed by a season back in the CL slots really isn't that outrageous. Obviously, the season after that is where a title challenge should be expected. I don't think anyone will accept 2 or more consecutive seasons battling arsenal for the top 4 trophy.

Re the spending, you either accept that the squad needs fundamental rebuilding or you don't. If it turns out that a significant number out of Valencia, Young, Welbeck, Cleverley, Smalling, Jones, Evans, Nani, Kagawa, Welbeck, Anderson and Hernandez really aren't good enough to build a team around to compete with the likes of City and Chelsea on an ongoing basis then Moyes has a massive rebuilding task on his hand. Obviously, they already did win one league title but not without significant contributions from the genuinely world class elder statesmen in our squad, all of whom will be phased out in the years ahead. Which makes a 200m outlay seem not only reasonable but necessary.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.