Moyes has to go

Moyes out?

  • Knee jerk/I object to the term knee jerk because I told you he was going to be rubbish in 2003

    Votes: 296 80.4%

  • Head in sand/My name is Baghdad Bob and everything is going to be OK

    Votes: 72 19.6%
  • Total voters
    368
  • Poll closed .
bosnian_red said:
What happened in your view then? Was our squad shit right when Fergie left and in need of a huge makeover then? It isn't now IMO, and the addition of 2 midfielders would put us up there with the best squad in the league again. Add in a defender and we've got best starting 11 too. Hardly a squad riddled with problems if 3 players can get you a team up there with any team around individual wise. It's just on the manager to get them to play together.
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Ok a number of things. But first I dont know yet if Moyes is the right man long term. Im not a Moyes supporter but what I struggle with in my opinion are inaccuracies and also a lack of consideration of events that Moyes has had to deal with. People will incorrectly interpret me arguing certain points with supporting Moyes. Its not that, its just I prefer clarity in a debate and some arguments lack thought and clarity.

I think if Mourinho had got the job we would have had a better season.

The sequence of events doesnt help.
1. Moyes took over at the beginning of a transfer window and to make it more difficult he is partnered with someone he has never worked with before who has never done the transfer business side of the job, Woodward. Moyes didnt have 3 months warning of the job, it all happened quickly. So adding to this unfortunate timing of Woodward being his partner in the transfer window at a new club we add in the fact that he had to go away on a preseason tour with a new team. So among the issue of trying to work out the right transfer targets he also has to go on a foreign tour, work with a man new to the job, Woodward, get to know his squad which in turn means he has to work out what suits him and what suits what he wants to do. His dilemma of course is does he give the squad time to prove themselves to him terms of fitting his vision for Utd or does he go hard in the transfer market.
Not entirely his fault the summer transfer window was not a good one for us. We paid far too much for Fellaini and yes thats his fault but it wasnt an easy start for him with the various side issues.

With respect to Fabregas he took a punt. Fergie got Cantona on a cheeky punt and it came off. Nobody at the time thought Cantona would leave leeds nor did they think Leeds would actually sell to a big rival. Sorry but bagging Moyes for going after fabregas is daft. He was at least trying for the right type of player. It didnt work but if you dont have a try you never know, just ask Fergie about Cantona...


2. He walked in to a situation where one of the key players was wanting out. Not a situation of his making and he was able to resolve that. However his other main striker was not happy that Fergie left so Moyes starts there on the back foot with that player. I think RvP will be gone at the end of the season, Moyes with respect to that was in a no win situation. RvP came to utd because he wanted to win trophies but also because of Fergie.

3. Last season the guy who so often was the inspiration for winning games, RvP ends up spending a lot of time injured, not ideal at all. We won the league last season but would we have done it without RvP?. I dont think we would have. Im not saying one man makes a team but RvP was the missing bit of the jigsaw that allowed Fergie to have a successful final season. RvP was injured for parts of last season but not during crucial periods.

4. The squad. Sorry but I believe we have a squad with a number of gaps and those gaps have been exposed this season. We did not/do not have the level of cover for all positions to be the top team this season.
Rio is past his used by date, they was clear last season. Vidic is also in the same boat and successive knee injuries have had an impact which is clear to anyone watching. Evra is coming to the tail end of his career and this season has been awful but equally wasnt really that great last season. Carrick is also heading towards the last few years and I think he is our only truely high quality central midfielder. So 4 players who are needing or will need to be moved on.
Our back up players for the FB spots are non existent. Fabio just didnt cut it for me, I know people talk about the Barca game but outside of that i dont remember him looking good at all. Buttner isnt good enough and we have resorted to using a CB or a wide player to cover the FB problem for a couple of seasons. Our CM backups are not good enough. We had used Jones as a CM last season and I think he is a CB. Our wide players are not of the quality Utd has had over the years and Nani for a couple of seasons has been hot and cold.
So despite the fact we won the league last year comfortably that was a mixture of other teams being poor and during the season there was plenty of comment about that, and also RvP having a stormer of a year. Go through last seasons match threads and remember just how much complaining was happening with respect to how we played. We were awful a lot of the games last year, sadly we are even worse this year.

The " this squad won the league last year" argument forgets to consider that some of our players were on the slide last year and are another year on from that now.
Our squad lacks depth in key areas. City have approached things with the view of having 2 high quality players in every position. We dont have that by any stretch of the imagination.

5. Luck. Luck swings both ways but we really have had a few instances at precisely the wrong moment this season. Losing 2 CB's in the first half in one game doesnt happen often and the timing of it was tough. DeGea making a completely uncharacteristic hash of a save in the league cup game at exactly the wrong moment was also tough. Have we scored more OG's this season than last season?. Possibly not but it does feel like it. Carricks one in Greece was good example. The luck side of things hasnt been a big factor but when you connect all the little things together it just accentuates Moyes own mistakes and failings even more.

6. the absolute seismic impact of Fergie leaving. Every single team in the competition even before the season started knew this was the best chance they would have of knocking us over.

7. Coaching changes. Big mistake and thats his own doing.

8. Media interviews. this one amuses me. People read way way way too much in to those things.

The squad Fergie left behind wasnt shit but it was full of gaps in terms of depth and for years on here people have been complaining about our central midfield. The depth issue is a big one though, there are some bad gaps. Fergie if he had stayed would have had to build a new team and as we saw in the past that can take a few seasons. If Fergie had stayed would we have won the league again?. No way and I think we would have finished 3rd or 4th, probably 4th.
 
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Sphaero said:
Furthermore, Moyes now had two transfer windows and large financial backing to fix the problems. He has failed to do so. You still have no proper back ups for both your fullback positions, which should never happen for a 200+Mil. € squad in terms of wages. You brought in Fellaini, who is at the end of the day just another body for your midfield and can´t be expected to fill the creative void you have there. Juan Mata is a player with outstanding individual skills and will probably win you points because of that but I have a hard time believing that he will archive his top level in your current set up.
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this argument is funny as well.

Moyes bought Fellaini who most here were underwhelmed with. thats fine, no argument there however he played I think 7 or 8 games and then has been injured so his ability to have an important impact on the season has hardly existed. Just pretend for a second that he is a world class player, that lack of playing time means his impact on the season has been minimal.
Mata has played 5 games? so far.

So using the "2 transfer window" argument seems ludicrous to me. Add in the fact the first transfer window was right when Moyes had a ton of things to contend with and the guy he has to work with in the transfer market is new to that role and he had never met before. 1st transfer window was a mess and mostly out of his control. 2nd transfer window, the player he bought has only played 5 games and is hardly time to cause a siesmic change.

I think Moyes first mistake was doing anything in the first transfer window. His second mistake was the changing of the coaching staff.
 
I think I may have come to terms with the club doing feck all about this crap.

But I think we as supporters can do something. For starters can someone take down that 'chosen one' banner at Old Trafford. I thought it was cringe worthy before the season even started. Now it is just a joke.
 
Twisted_Woody said:
I think I may have come to terms with the club doing feck all about this crap.

But I think we as supporters can do something. For starters can someone take down that 'chosen one' banner at Old Trafford. I thought it was cringe worthy before the season even started. Now it is just a joke.
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I hated that sign from the beginning.
 
Twisted_Woody said:
I think I may have come to terms with the club doing feck all about this crap.

But I think we as supporters can do something. For starters can someone take down that 'chosen one' banner at Old Trafford. I thought it was cringe worthy before the season even started. Now it is just a joke.
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Maybe we could put it up in the away end.
 
MkPaul said:
A lot of people blame Fergie for choosing Moyes which I really don't think is fair. Moyes was actually a really good candidate, he brought a hell of a lot of stability to Everton, cared about the academy and bringing through youth. He was praised at Everton for years. Fergie and a lot of us thought those qualities combined with more money would be a good choice for United. European experience would come with time. At the moment, its looking like he isn't the right guy for the job because although the team has it's faults, he isn't getting enough out of the players we have. We have world class strikers and attacking players and even after signing Mata, they haven't been used well.

Fergie should take some blame for giving Moyes a team with a lot of cracks in and so should Gill for leaving Woodward in such a crucial time in terms of having to buy so many key players.

Personally I will be behind Moyes at all of the games and I will support him like the rest of the team. That doesn't mean i'll be disappointed in the morning if I wake up and see he's been sacked.

I don't things will get worse than they are now and I do think Moyes will improve us with another summer transfer window. I just don't think he will ever be able to take us to the heights than Manchester United deserve.
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Speaking of that, I remember Gill talked about candidates must have European experience. I don't think he meant being dumped out in qualifications as 'experience'.

Makes you wonder why he had to emphasize on that criteria, if he and Fergie had agreed on Moyes beforehand, though.

And your last paragraph sum up my thinking. It's like City winning the league with Mancini as manager, after spending half a billion. But you could tell that the City would go nowhere near as one of the elites, with him at the helm.
 
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Isotope said:
Speaking of that, I remember Gill talked about candidates must have European experience. I don't think he meant being dumped out in qualifications as 'experience'.

Makes you wonder why he had to emphasize on that criteria, if he and Fergie had agreed on Moyes beforehand, though.
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Maybe he wasnt first choice? Maybe we did actually want Mourinho, maybe we approached him privately and he said no thanks Id rather go to Chelsea? Not saying that is what happened, not at all, Im just thinking out loud. People often say "we could have had Mourinho" as though it was a statement of fact all the time but I do wonder. After all, if we had asked him and he had said no I doubt anyone would have made it public.
 
Stack said:
Ok a number of things. But first I dont know yet if Moyes is the right man long term. Im not a Moyes supporter but what I struggle with in my opinion are inaccuracies and also a lack of consideration of events that Moyes has had to deal with. People will incorrectly interpret me arguing certain points with supporting Moyes. Its not that, its just I prefer clarity in a debate and some arguments lack thought and clarity.

I think if Mourinho had got the job we would have had a better season.

The sequence of events doesnt help.
1. Moyes took over at the beginning of a transfer window and to make it more difficult he is partnered with someone he has never worked with before who has never done the transfer business side of the job, Woodward. Moyes didnt have 3 months warning of the job, it all happened quickly. So adding to this unfortunate timing of Woodward being his partner in the transfer window at a new club we add in the fact that he had to go away on a preseason tour with a new team. So among the issue of trying to work out the right transfer targets he also has to go on a foreign tour, work with a man new to the job, Woodward, get to know his squad which in turn means he has to work out what suits him and what suits what he wants to do. His dilemma of course is does he give the squad time to prove themselves to him terms of fitting his vision for Utd or does he go hard in the transfer market.
Not entirely his fault the summer transfer window was not a good one for us. We paid far too much for Fellaini and yes thats his fault but it wasnt an easy start for him with the various side issues.

With respect to Fabregas he took a punt. Fergie got Cantona on a cheeky punt and it came off. Nobody at the time thought Cantona would leave leeds nor did they think Leeds would actually sell to a big rival. Sorry but bagging Moyes for going after fabregas is daft. He was at least trying for the right type of player. It didnt work but if you dont have a try you never know, just ask Fergie about Cantona...
.
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I work for a big corporation and "change management" is something that gets discussed a lot. Someone mentioned the succession planning at United leading up to this summer as an example in which in which they managed to feck up almost every single aspect of the handover. A case study in incompetency.

Planning for life after Fergie should have been top priority for the board and presented the single biggest threat to their business that they are ever likely to face. They even had a trial run when he announced his retirement a decade ago, only to change his mind. Beggars belief that they couldn't have lined up a successor ready to hit the ground running from immediately after the final game of last season. At the very least, Moyes should have know he would get the opportunity several months before it was confirmed, so he could start to think about the squad he would inherit and potential transfers during his first summer in charge. Combine that will allowing Gill to leave at the same time and you've a cluster-feck waiting to happen. It's hard to know how much Fergie is to blame for keeping his cards so close to his chest and how much was down to everyone around him being badly prepared but this whole thing has been amazingly badly handled.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
If one of your criteria is "experienced PL manager" then I don't see why not. You're working off a short list.
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For Moyes to be the next target, it has to be THE criteria. As they are so different in many other ways.

Anyhow, if only I thought we really really made our choice that way. For some reason I think it was done far more simplistic.
 
To be fair there is nothing more simplistic than having a shortlist of two or three managers with PL experience, asking one, getting turned down and then going for the other one.

Also, while they have their differences are they really SO different? People slam Moyes for being too defensive, Mourinho certainly seems to be more about being solid than gung-ho football. People say Moyes sets up his teams in a "reactionary" way, i.e. looking to nullify the threat of his opponents rather than imposing his own style. Mourinho does that too.

Seems to me their biggest differences are their quality and charisma. And nationality of course, if that is relevant, which people seem to think it is.
 
jojojo said:
Your summary there pretty much sums up how most matchgoing fans that I know feel, and how I feel myself.

I guess where we differ is in that last paragraph. If he's the wrong man for the job (and he certainly hasn't shown that he's the right one) then his hand on the controls as we do probably the biggest, most expensive squad change we have ever attempted could leave things worse - in the sense that the next manager will have less freedom to spend, and fewer ways to sell off highly paid misfits.

We're talking about one of the biggest and most expensive squad changes ever seen at a top club. It's comparable with Real Madrid in the summer of 2009, when they bought 7 players and sold/gave away more, with a net spend of £150m. It took them more than two seasons (with very good managers) and another £100m before they recovered from it and started to really look like a team again, and even then they fell short of the best.
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This is a big problem.

Here is a man who has worked on a shoestring all his career suddenly spending more in 6 months on 2 players than he has spent in all of the last 10 years at Everton (alright, this might be an exaggeration, but you get my point). The guy should have an eye for a bargain, but ends up spending top money when he didn't have to & then breaks the club transfer record. The sheer arrogance of the man to come here & spend that sort of money, he's like a kid in a sweetshop, I'll have that one & that one, or a lottery winner (which he is tbf).

He should have kept his fecking feet on the ground, stuck to what he knows & eased his way into the job rather than throwing someone else's money around like there's no tomorrow when he has no experience whatsoever of spending big.
 
Colin129 said:
This is a big problem.

Here is a man who has worked on a shoestring all his career suddenly spending more in 6 months on 2 players than he has spent in all of the last 10 years at Everton (alright, this might be an exaggeration, but you get my point). The guy should have an eye for a bargain, but ends up spending top money when he didn't have to & then breaks the club transfer record. The sheer arrogance of the man to come here & spend that sort of money, he's like a kid in a sweetshop, I'll have that one & that one, or a lottery winner (which he is tbf).

He should have kept his fecking feet on the ground, stuck to what he knows & eased his way into the job rather than throwing someone else's money around like there's no tomorrow when he has no experience whatsoever of spending big.
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I dont think that is a fair criticism at all. Once he was appointed manager of Manchester United he had to behave like it and spend. Even if you are right that it was out of his comfort zone, he would need to learn that skill ASAP. Frankly I can imagine he would be getting 20x more criticism if he had done as you suggested.
 
Adebesi said:
I dont think that is a fair criticism at all. Once he was appointed manager of Manchester United he had to behave like it and spend. Even if you are right that it was out of his comfort zone, he would need to learn that skill ASAP. Frankly I can imagine he would be getting 20x more criticism if he had done as you suggested.
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Ericsson for £12M, for example?
 
Rumours growing about Hernadez and RVP leaving in the Summer... Hernadez looks inevitable now having said "they don't take me much into account".

So we can add strikeforce to the list that needs rebuilding.
 
Colin129 said:
I'm saying he brought the wrong players, went for the wrong (unattainable) targets and hasn't got the best out of what he has got.
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That's a massive understatement. Players currently have all regressed under him with the exception of Januzaj and De Gea.
 
RedSky At Night said:
Rumours growing about Hernadez and RVP leaving in the Summer... Hernadez looks inevitable now having said "they don't take me much into account".

So we can add strikeforce to the list that needs rebuilding.
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So that forwards, midfield, defense, and the squad that needs rebuilding. Did Fergie leave us any players?
 
Colin129 said:
I'm saying he brought the wrong players, went for the wrong (unattainable) targets and hasn't got the best out of what he has got.
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I dont know. Maybe. The last bit of what you said is a completely different issue, hard to argue with that but not really to do with his acquisition strategy. Obviously most people would agree with you about Fellaini, I think he will be a good player for us, maybe we overpaid a bit for him but I dont really begrudge him that particularly (and if I blame anyone for paying more than his release clause it would be Woodward.) The question of whether Mata was what we really needed is another interesting one, time will tell how well he does for us and how well he fits in with Rooney and RVP. I thought it was a waste of time chasing Fabregas but I didnt think Thiago was the wrong target.

As I said, maybe you are right, I dont know who we should be chasing as my knowledge of other football leagues is very limited. My main concern is him not getting the most out of the players we have but you only brought that up just now, if that is what youd said originally I wouldnt have said it was unfair.
 
Getsme said:
So that forwards, midfield,defense, and the squad. Did Fergie leave us any players?
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Well, I'd say RVP and Hernadez wanting to leave is due to the current managers failings and not Sir Alex. What worries me is the sheer amount of players we'll need to bring in if we continue with Dave. This therefore means that we'll need at least one season for the team to gel as a unit.

How many players need to leave before the board realise the problem is at management level? Although someone made an interesting point some days ago that the players rebelling will just add further fire behind Sir Alex and sticking with Dave. We all know how much Sir Alex hates player power after all.

Another rollercoaster season awaits us.
 
RedSky At Night said:
Rumours growing about Hernadez and RVP leaving in the Summer... Hernadez looks inevitable now having said "they don't take me much into account".

So we can add strikeforce to the list that needs rebuilding.
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He's been misquoted. He said "Obviously I've not been involved much in recent months."
 
RedSky At Night said:
Well, I'd say RVP and Hernadez wanting to leave is due to the current managers failings and not Sir Alex. What worries me is the sheer amount of players we'll need to bring in if we continue with Dave. This therefore means that we'll need at least one season for the team to gel as a unit.

How many players need to leave before the board realise the problem is at management level? Although someone made an interesting point some days ago that the players rebelling will just add further fire behind Sir Alex and sticking with Dave. We all know how much Sir Alex hates player power after all.

Another rollercoaster season awaits us.
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Sorry. I was trying to be sarcastic :)
 
Adebesi said:
To be fair there is nothing more simplistic than having a shortlist of two or three managers with PL experience, asking one, getting turned down and then going for the other one.

Also, while they have their differences are they really SO different? People slam Moyes for being too defensive, Mourinho certainly seems to be more about being solid than gung-ho football. People say Moyes sets up his teams in a "reactionary" way, i.e. looking to nullify the threat of his opponents rather than imposing his own style. Mourinho does that too.

Seems to me their biggest differences are their quality and charisma. And nationality of course, if that is relevant, which people seem to think it is.
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I'd say you've forgotten something that is possibly far more important - experience at big clubs. For me it was, and still is, huge.

I think the experience of someone who has worked at the big clubs of Europe would have been vital for stepping into Fergie's shoes. Doing that when the biggest club you've worked at is Everton, for all the relevant issues - smaller squad, targeting lesser and cheaper players, etc - means you have to learn a whole lot. It really put Moyes on the back foot from the very first moment.
 
Amir said:
I'd say you've forgotten something that is possibly far more important - experience at big clubs. For me it was, and still is, huge.

I think the experience of someone who has worked at the big clubs of Europe would have been vital for stepping into Fergie's shoes. Doing that when the biggest club you've worked at is Everton, for all the relevant issues - smaller squad, targeting lesser and cheaper players, etc - means you have to learn a whole lot. It really put Moyes on the back foot from the very first moment.
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Yes, that's true, that experience is a big difference. Still, going back to the original point, it is less a question of how Moyes could be a fall-back for Mourinho, than how Moyes was in the running at all, considering how important that factor (and the CL experience thing, which is a massively overlapping point to be fair) it should have been.
 
All I'm really saying is what many people have said all along, the job is too big for him.

Most people who win the lottery end up wasting most, if not all, of it because they aren't used to handing so much money, he's out of his comfort zone & instead of stepping back and considering his options, he's throwing money around like there's no tomorrow. Dismantling the squad that won the league at at canter, and should have reached the CL semis (at least) if it wasn't for a ridiculous sending off, and planning to spend an enormous amount of money to rebuild a squad which really only required some tweaking in the midfield for this season.

If SAF had been backed to this extent over the last few years, just imagine where we would be today? Instead, we let players like Hazard & Moura go for the sake of a few £M, whereas inexperienced Moyes has an open chequebook.
 
Jonathan Wilson was talking about this on Football Weekly. The way he broke it down was quite simple.

The club has two options, go for a manager with a proven track record of success in the CL or in the PL. Once Mourinho's ruled out (for whatever reason) that leaves nobody which ticks both boxes.

If they decide that PL experience is the more important of the two, then it's really not hard to see why Moyes was very near the top of the list.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Jonathan Wilson was talking about this on Football Weekly. The way he broke it down was quite simple.

The club has two options, go for a manager with a proven track record of success in the CL or in the PL. Once Mourinho's ruled out, that leaves nobody which ticks both boxes.

If they decide that PL experience is the more important of the two, then it's really not hard to see why Moyes was very near the top of the list.
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Ancelotti?
 
Colin129 said:
All I'm really saying is what many people have said all along, the job is too big for him.

Most people who win the lottery end up wasting most, if not all, of it because they aren't used to handing so much money, he's out of his comfort zone & instead of stepping back and considering his options, he's throwing money around like there's no tomorrow. Dismantling the squad that won the league at at canter, and should have reached the CL semis (at least) if it wasn't for a ridiculous sending off, and planning to spend an enormous amount of money to rebuild a squad which really only required some tweaking in the midfield for this season.

If SAF had been backed to this extent over the last few years, just imagine where we would be today? Instead, we let players like Hazard & Moura go for the sake of a few £M, whereas inexperienced Moyes has an open chequebook.
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Again though, he hasnt dismantled anything yet. Not intentionally anyway. I dont think dismantling a team's confidence is what you meant? The above would make more sense if he had come in last summer, sold a shit load of players and bought a shit load of new ones. He didnt, he bought Fellaini. And then Mata, in the next window, because we were in freefall. Now he is talking about dismantling the team but that is in his second season and in response to our complete collapse. Stepping back and considering his options is, to me, exactly what he did.
 
RedSky At Night said:
Oh? I've looked at several sites and they all say the same?
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http://www.record.com.mx/articulo/noticias/843971/futbol noticias-del-tri/quiero-jugar-ya-que-mi-equipo-no-me-toma-mucho-en-cuenta-ch14

This is the original interview. Google Translate isn't ideal but it should give a rough indication. Nowhere does it say 'my club doesn't take me into account'.

Edit: The article's title says 'club doesn't take me into account' but nowhere in his actual quotes did he say that. The paper is sensationalising.
 
Brophs said:
Ancelotti?
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Wilson didn't mention him but yeah, he'd make the shortlist too.

Of course, managing a sugar daddy club is a completely different proposition to managing a club that needs to be run profitably, with an emphasis on developing talent from within.

Which might explain why both of them were overlooked (assuming they were overloooked and didn't just turn the opportunity down)
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Wilson didn't mention him but yeah, he'd make the shortlist too.

Of course, managing a sugar daddy club is a completely different proposition to managing a club that needs to be run profitably. Which might explain why both of them were overlooked (assuming they were overloooked and didn't just turn the opportunity down)
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Yeah, of course. He's just the only manager I can think of that's been successful in both and is still knocking around.
 
When Ancelotti went to Chelsea the criticism people had was he liked sticking with his old players too much. IN that sense he was probably a better fit for us than for a sugar daddy club. he could probably have got another 5 years out of Rio, Giggs and Scholes. Problem solved.
 
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