Moyes has to go

[Gladiator]

@Mauzindark I agree but it's clear the club are backing Moyes and that he's their man so they're happy to sound out the players. It's an easy scapegoat which sidesteps the real problem. honestly makes me feel a bit sick because to me it just breeds disunity. This "giving time" argument is making my head spin.

Not a bad attempt with the analogy but too bad the only person who can control anything in that analogy is the carpenter. Otherwise it would work better because the players do have some responsibility not like those tools.

 

[Sarni]

I'm saying it again, in many clubs in Europe - some of the biggest as well - who operate with the sporting director model, the coach has a very limited voice in structuring his squad. He simply has to work well with the players he is given. There's no 'I need to build my own team'. You simply don't. And just like with the 'manager is king' model, some succeed and some don't.

The idea a manager has to build his own team before he can be judged is silly and plain wrong. So does that mean this season is a complete write off when it comes to viewing how Moyes has been doing? What if he needs a couple more years to really build 'his team'? The team hasn't changed so much over the past year and it's not going to happen over one summer now.

His football won't keep him here for six years, but excuses just might.

I've lost my hope. He'll be here for the next 6 years, possibly more than 10, even if we struggle to make CL in any of those seasons. In 4 years people will hail him successful if he manages to beat Liverpool or City in an odd game. Mid-table mediocrity is our destiny.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I've lost my hope. He'll be here for the next 6 years, possibly more than 10, even if we struggle to make CL in any of those seasons. In 4 years people will hail him successful if he manages to beat Liverpool or City in an odd game. Mid-table mediocrity is our destiny.

He'll last two seasons I reckon.

 

[Getsme]

He'll last two seasons I reckon.

I'd go along with that, it's going to be a case of grin and bear it for a while.

 

[Revan]

Well I think we can all agree that the scouting and academy can be improved on. Weren't a lot of people annoyed that the likes of Vidal went to other clubs on the cheap while Fergie ignored them?

The scouting of United seems to be really crap. We have troubles finding youg great players (Januzaj, Rafael and Chicharito in the last 5-7 years) are the only successes. The academy (from all things I have heard) seems to be fine. Can Moyes improve any of these with experts from Everton is a completely different question but scouting should improve ASAP.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

If you ask a carpenter to build you a cupboard and it is not to size what do you do ?
1. Do you blame the wood used
2. Do you blame the tools used or
3. Do you blame the carpenter?
The answer to that is clear for most I guess.

Ha! You either stole that from the comments section on SkySports.com or you were the one that originally posted it there

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'd go along with that, it's going to be a case of grin and bear it for a while.

My two worries are are that a) Liverpool keep improving which will make our task at the end of Moyes' tenure harder and b) that Moyes' spends big but on players that suit his boring style of football but the next manager finds hard to fit in.

Hopefully Mata is a sign of things to come. A top quality player who a better manager can use in a better more modern system. On the other hand, we might lose Kagawa who could possibly thrive under a new manager.

 

[Melvyn]

The scouting of United seems to be really crap. We have troubles finding youg great players (Januzaj, Rafael and Chicharito in the last 5-7 years) are the only successes. The academy (from all things I have heard) seems to be fine. Can Moyes improve any of these with experts from Everton is a completely different question but scouting should improve ASAP.

Yeah but how many academy products have made it to the first team in recent years, and actually are first team quality? I don't know about him bringing in experts from Everton, but him identifying those areas as weaknesses is already a positive for me.

 

[MDFC Manager]

The scouting of United seems to be really crap. We have troubles finding youg great players (Januzaj, Rafael and Chicharito in the last 5-7 years) are the only successes. The academy (from all things I have heard) seems to be fine. Can Moyes improve any of these with experts from Everton is a completely different question but scouting should improve ASAP.

This. We apparently spend a lot on scouting and youth development but it's not paying off in the way it should.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The scouting of United seems to be really crap. We have troubles finding youg great players (Januzaj, Rafael and Chicharito in the last 5-7 years) are the only successes. The academy (from all things I have heard) seems to be fine. Can Moyes improve any of these with experts from Everton is a completely different question but scouting should improve ASAP.

We also got Pogba in recent years who could have been huge. It's not a Barca-esque system but it's not done too bad when you see that Pogba and Januzaj have emerged in the last two years from our scouting system and they're going to be huge stars of the game.

 

[Revan]

Yeah but how many academy products have made it to the first team in recent years, and actually are first team quality? I don't know about him bringing in experts from Everton, but him identifying those areas as weaknesses is already a positive for me.

Evans, Fletcher, Januzaj, Rafael, Fabio, Welbeck, Pogba, Cleverley have came from academy in the last 10 years. I guess that all of them bar Cleverley and Fabio are first team quality. Also, it isn't a problem of United's academy that at the moment English good players are very rare so naturally we won't have a good academy as Barca for example. And don't forget, how many players we have sold to other teams, who weren't good enough for us but are quality players to play in EPL.

I said the experts from Everton, because Moyes until now has been using much of the staff he has been using there, and Everton had a worse academy than us to be fair.

Of course improving these two things (especially the scouting) would be a great thing.

 

[jojojo]

The scouting of United seems to be really crap. We have troubles finding youg great players (Januzaj, Rafael and Chicharito in the last 5-7 years) are the only successes. The academy (from all things I have heard) seems to be fine. Can Moyes improve any of these with experts from Everton is a completely different question but scouting should improve ASAP.

We don't really know that because we don't know what criteria they were being given, nor which names they proposed and had rejected.

We chose Smalling, Jones and Powell, but of course we knew about Varane. The quest for a young English core is a tough one. How many current world class English players are there? How many potential ones?

The scouts brought us Pogba, but we lost him.

I think the Bebe adventure effectively led to us disengaging from Mendes and his scouting system, and it's probably taken us time to rebuild it in Spain, Portugal and South America. Indeed our reluctance to deal with certain types of agent is another complication beyond the scouting system.

We've bid, or been willing to bid, on top young talent like Lucas and Hazzard.

What you find, depends on what you're looking for. What you buy, depends on your priorities, what types of gambles you like to take, and your willingness to pay.

 

[Getsme]

My two worries are are that a) Liverpool keep improving which will make our task at the end of Moyes' tenure harder and b) that Moyes' spends big but on players that suit his boring style of football but the next manager finds hard to fit in.

Hopefully Mata is a sign of things to come. A top quality player who a better manager can use in a better more modern system. On the other hand, we might lose Kagawa who could possibly thrive under a new manager.

Indeed.
I did post earlier in the thread about option B in your post. It doesn't matter if we bring in World class players, if it doesn't work under Moyes there is no guarantee that a new manager would rate the players, or that he would want to keep them, he will have no choice though as they will have signed big money contracts.

Some posters keep on repeating that it's not Moyes team, so what, it's a team full of outstanding players, a team full of champions a team full of winners. The issue isn't that it's not his team it's that he's turned the Champions into a mid table team, what's to guarantee that a few more players will change that? It's a problem, a bigger one than some realise.

 

[Revan]

We also got Pogba in recent years who could have been huge. It's not a Barca-esque system but it's not done too bad when you see that Pogba and Januzaj have emerged in the last two years from our scouting system and they're going to be huge stars of the game.

Your talking about scouting or academy? I think that the academy is fine. Scouting isn't (despite Rafael, Pogba, Januzaj and Chicha) compared to other teams. BVB for example signed Hummels, Subotic, Kagawa, Lewandovski, Blazczikovski and Piszsek for less than 20m (pretty sure I have mistaken some of Polish player names).

 

[Brophs]

The scouting at every top club is good. At least in the sense that they all know about the talented young players. But signing them is another thing altogether. Every team wants the best young talent. What can you do if they're offered silly money, or want to be elsewhere, though?

 

[Amir]

What you find, depends on what you're looking for. What you buy, depends on your priorities, what types of gambles you like to take, and your willingness to pay.

True. Scouting is not just about unearthing players we've never heard of, it's also looking at known players and figuring our whether they'll be right for us or the PL. Like with De Gea.

No saying our scouting was the best, and maybe Moyes and his team just have different ways of doing it, but it doesn't make what we had bad.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Your talking about scouting or academy? I think that the academy is fine. Scouting isn't (despite Rafael, Pogba, Januzaj and Chicha) compared to other teams. BVB for example signed Hummels, Subotic, Kagawa, Lewandovski, Blazczikovski and Piszsek for less than 20m (pretty sure I have mistaken some of Polish player names).

You spoke about finding great young players. I assumed you meant under 20 players or something.

 

[Revan]

You spoke about finding great young players. I assumed you meant under 20 players or something.

About scouting I meant in general. Anyway all those BVB' players I mentioned were either in early twenties or even younger.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Ha! You either stole that from the comments section on SkySports.com or you were the one that originally posted it there

It's a shit analogy an' all.

When was the last time a carpenter turned up at a job to be told he wasn't allowed to use his own tools and would have to use whatever bits of wood he could find at the site?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Indeed.
I did post earlier in the thread about option B in your post. It doesn't matter if we bring in World class players, if it doesn't work under Moyes there is no guarantee that a new manager would rate the players, or that he would want to keep them, he will have no choice though as they will have signed big money contracts.

Some posters keep on repeating that it's not Moyes team, so what, it's a team full of outstanding players, a team full of champions a team full of winners. The issue isn't that it's not his team it's that he's turned the Champions into a mid table team, what's to guarantee that a few more players will change that? It's a problem, a bigger one than some realise.

It's funny that a year back if you said we would spend big money on a few top players, most people would say that would give us a chance to be up there with Barca and Bayern. Now, some claim our squad is so bad it would take that for us to finish top 4. It's gotten really silly.

 

[Getsme]

It's funny that a year back if you said we would spend big money on a few top players, most people would say that would give us a chance to be up there with Barca and Bayern. Now, some claim our squad is so bad it would take that for us to finish top 4. It's gotten really silly.

It's been a year full of excuses, sadly I'd imagine next season will be the same. We have a very good squad, they are just being managed badly.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It's a shit analogy an' all.

When was the last time a carpenter turned up at a job to be told he wasn't allowed to use his own tools and would have to use whatever bits of wood he could find at the site?

Also, it's worth pointing out that Carpentry isn't remotely similar to football.

If anything it should be if David Moyes turned up at your house to build you a new wardrobe, and instead of where the wardrobe is, there's just Maroune Fellaini, who' s fault is that?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Also, it's worth pointing out that Carpentry isn't remotely similar to football.

If anything it should be if David Moyes turned up at your hose to build you a new wardrobe, and instead of where the wardrobe is, there's just Maroune Fellaini, who' s fault is that?

"WTF, you signed the wrong CM! I wanted Papa Boupa Diop!"

 

[Sarni]

It's a shit analogy an' all.

When was the last time a carpenter turned up at a job to be told he wasn't allowed to use his own tools and would have to use whatever bits of wood he could find at the site?

Well, that carpenter has been given very high quality tools and the best materials available, yet he's asking you to give him money so he can buy some sub par new tools at Tesco - are you going to hand it over to him or are you going to hire a new one who won't ask for the same nonsense?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Well, that carpenter has been given very high quality tools and the best materials available, yet he's asking you to give him money so he can buy some sub par new tools at Tesco - are you going to hand it over to him or are you going to hire a new one who won't ask for the same nonsense?

I'd wonder why we're in the 1950's, tell him to go home, and pop down to IKEA myself.

Oh and in football analogy world, IKEA doesn't mean Sven Goran Eriksen.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well, that carpenter has been given very high quality tools and the best materials available, yet he's asking you to give him money so he can buy some sub par new tools at Tesco - are you going to hand it over to him or are you going to hire a new one who won't ask for the same nonsense?

There's a Juan Mata sized hole in the middle of your analogy about buying "sub par tools at Tesco".

Not to mention the idea that he has the "best materials available" when everyone can see that there's only one door, that's a little bit creaky and called Michael Carrick.

 

[Mauzindark]

It's a shit analogy an' all.

When was the last time a carpenter turned up at a job to be told he wasn't allowed to use his own tools and would have to use whatever bits of wood he could find at the site?

Is this for real ? Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it a shit analogy. Contracted carpenters are bound to use tools supplied by their contractors and have no say in the materials use. I don't know which hipster carpenters you're talking about that refuse to work with standard tools and supplied wood. It's not a shitty analogy at all. It's an old/ famous phrase that fits into all kinds of situations. Don't believe me ?

http://100proverbs.blogspot.in/2010/10/6-bad-workman-always-quarrels-with-his.html
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/A+bad+workman+blames+his+tools
http://www.phrases.net/serp.php?st=a+bad+workman+always+blames+his+tools&ex=1

Nothing more to say. Don't wanna get dragged into dead-end discussions with dick measuring and posturing for one-upping.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is this for real ? Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it a shit analogy. Contracted carpenters are bound to use tools supplied by their contractors and have no say in the materials use. I don't know which hipster carpenters you're talking about that refuse to work with standard tools and supplied wood. It's not a shitty analogy at all. It's an old/ famous phrase that fits into all kinds of situations. Don't believe me ?

http://100proverbs.blogspot.in/2010/10/6-bad-workman-always-quarrels-with-his.html
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/A bad workman blames his tools
http://www.phrases.net/serp.php?st=a bad workman always blames his tools&ex=1

Nothing more to say. Don't wanna get dragged into dead-end discussions with dick measuring and posturing for one-upping.

Hipster carpenters? WTF. I got a joiner to build me some cupboards last year. He turned up with his own tools and ordered the wood himself. I assumed that was the way carpenters usually work.

I had no idea this made him a hipster and he definitely didn't have a beard or tight trousers or thick-rimmed glasses. You live and learn though.

 

[Sarni]

There's a Juan Mata sized hole in the middle of your analogy about buying "sub par tools at Tesco".

Not to mention the idea that he has the "best materials available" when everyone can see that there's only one door, that's a little bit creaky and called Michael Carrick.

Yeah but what good is the new tool when he doesn't want to use it with the other tools? He's doing one thing with a great quality tool then does another with an awful tool produced by mediocre Valencia & Young brand, it won't lead to a good outcome.

 

[Mauzindark]

Hipster carpenters? WTF. I got a joiner to build me some cupboards last year. He turned up with his own tools and ordered the wood himself. I assumed that was the way carpenters usually work.

I had no idea this made him a hipster and he definitely didn't have a beard or tight trousers or thick-rimmed glasses. You live and learn though.

Err he must be a freelancer mate - they carry their own tools and take care of every thing from procurement of wood, seasoning and varnishes. But the bulk of them are like minions for an overlord who gives them standard parts and tells them to make do with it.

Maybe it didn't fit 100 % into our situation but it's just an old saying - hence why I used it. Anyway this ain't a thread about carpenters is it ?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's not a bad analogy. These analogies aren't meant to be taken very literally anyway.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah but what good is the new tool when he doesn't want to use it with the other tools? He's doing one thing with a great quality tool then does another with an awful tool produced by mediocre Valencia & Young brand, it won't lead to a good outcome.

I think the analogy has been tortured enough, at this point.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

What if the Carpenter was John Carpenter?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Err he must be a freelancer mate - they carry their own tools and take care of every thing from procurement of wood, seasoning and varnishes. But the bulk of them are like minions for an overlord who gives them standard parts and tells them to make do with it.

Maybe it didn't fit 100 % into our situation but it's just an old saying - hence why I used it. Anyway this ain't a thread about carpenters is it ?

I was mainly being a smart arse, to be fair. The analogy made sense. Of course it did. The carpentry discussion has been an enjoyable diversion anyway. I even got to crack a Papa Bouba Diop joke, so it's all good really.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah but what good is the new tool when he doesn't want to use it with the other tools? He's doing one thing with a great quality tool then does another with an awful tool produced by mediocre Valencia & Young brand, it won't lead to a good outcome.

The hell is this, Sarni!

 

[jojojo]

Another random thought on both scouting and the idea that Moyes given a large summer budget would inevitably buy players who aren't just his men but would suit another manager if his contract does end early.

We know that Mata didn't suit Mourinho's Chelsea - he told us so.

During the summer, along with the rumours (that I believe were accurate) that we were supposed to sign Thiago came the rumour that we didn't make any move for Isco, partly because our scouts said that he was "too slow".

Isco had such a good pre-season, early season with Real Madrid the idea sounded ridiculous. 6 months on, and you can see that he's struggling to fit in with Madrid's style of play. He actually played better for them when the team were playing badly and they were relying on individual flashes of skill, than he did once they settled down to play as a team. He looked uncomfortable in a midfield two (even against easy opponents) and when they went to a midfield three - Modric and Di Maria looked dramatically better than him in terms both of judgment and speed.

Now, he's still potentially a great player, but perhaps not for the type of football that Madrid and us try to play. In the right team I still believe he will absolutely shine, maybe even with more experience he can shine at Madrid (though he may not be that patient).

Why did I bother with that?
Well because maybe our scouts did know what SAF was looking for, and did look for it.
And football is a team game, and a team isn't just the best 11 players you can get hold of.

Sorry about the lack of carpentry involved in this post.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The hell is this, Sarni!

Yeah, I already said we had a door named Michael Carrick so Valencia and Young should only be used in a timber-based context. Perhaps side panels on the inside of a drawer?

 

[jojojo]

So Moyes has brought his Dremel Handyman Multitool to the club, when what we really needed was a Joiner/Cabinet Maker with a router?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah, I already said we had a door named Michael Carrick so Valencia and Young should only be used in a timber-based context. Perhaps side panels on the inside of a drawer?

Don't drag me into this. My head is now bursting with terrible ideas!

Another random thought on both scouting and the idea that Moyes given a large summer budget would inevitably buy players who aren't just his men but would suit another manager if his contract does end early.

We know that Mata didn't suit Mourinho's Chelsea - he told us so.

During the summer, along with the rumours (that I believe were accurate) that we were supposed to sign Thiago came the rumour that we didn't make any move for Isco, partly because our scouts said that he was "too slow".

Isco had such a good pre-season, early season with Real Madrid the idea sounded ridiculous. 6 months on, and you can see that he's struggling to fit in with Madrid's style of play. He actually played better for them when the team were playing badly and they were relying on individual flashes of skill, than he did once they settled down to play as a team. He looked uncomfortable in a midfield two (even against easy opponents) and when they went to a midfield three - Modric and Di Maria looked dramatically better than him in terms both of judgment and speed.

Now, he's still potentially a great player, but perhaps not for the type of football that Madrid and us try to play. In the right team I still believe he will absolutely shine, maybe even with more experience he can shine at Madrid (though he may not be that patient).

Why did I bother with that?
Well because maybe our scouts did know what SAF was looking for, and did look for it.
And football is a team game, and a team isn't just the best 11 players you can get hold of.

Sorry about the lack of carpentry involved in this post.

Ahh, a jojojo post. I haven't read it but its probably what this thread needed.

 

[Stack]

Carroll could be a great buy for us. I'd prefer someone with better technique but there aren't many tall players who are good in the air AND have good technique. He's actually someone we should take a look at in the Summer.

you are joking right??????