This is no backoffice position, you have to deliver right off the bat with the resources at hand. By deliver I mean top four at the very least.
Moyes has to go
- Thread starter Orton
- Start date
Fergie thinks we'll be 'ok'!! 
http://www.football365.com/news/21554/9193060/Surprise-Surprise-Fergie-Says-Give-Moyes-Time-
http://www.football365.com/news/21554/9193060/Surprise-Surprise-Fergie-Says-Give-Moyes-Time-
Ok?
We scored 89 league goals in 2011/12, three more than last season.
It is amazing how myths become absolute truths on Caf. Despite that the stats say otherwise.
Yeah, but we're not asking Moyes to learn - what we're wanting him is a huge turnaround in the way he views football. I'm not sure managers do that.
And yeah, I do feel it was important that the first man after Fergie would be ready-made.
I agree it is impossible to predict what will happen next season but the signs for Martinez in his first season are good, certainly in the ambition and the style of football being played. Talking to rational Everton fans I get the clear impression that they feel that Moyes' performance peaked in 2005 and that his conservative, maybe even risk adverse approach restricted any possibility of moving onto 'next level'.
You raised the issue of Lukaku - this is a prime example. The fact that Martinez secured his services albeit a loan move is testament to Martinez's ambition. He has a clear idea about how he wants to play and Lukaku fits into the mould. In the same period, despite having a shed load of money to spend, Moyes has failed to impose a style or vision on the club - indeed we have regressed to mid 80's hoof ball. In contrast, Moyes spent big on Fellaini who has failed, as yet to make any impression and nobody is quite sure whether or not his best position is as a defensive or attacking midfield player.
I think that particular myth derived from Fergie when, at the RVP signing, he explained the title loss in 2012 as being due to lack of goals (when in reality it was losing 1-6 to our direct rivals which irretrievably wrecked our goal difference).
That's only partly true. Yes he had to keep learning, certainly in terms of the evolving tactics of the game.
However his philosophy that football is about attacking never changed. It probably came from being a striker and he built every team he ever managed to attack.
you shouldn't bother with RedRover, he is on some sort of wum, pretending to be an United fan.
Despite me thinking he's no Utd manager (so far anyway), I feel for Moyes on how history is being rewritten about his time at Everton.
When he took over Everton were in the gutter. They had dire financial problems and Walter Smith (who also did a good job but got trashed in the history books for being dour) had just spent 4 years desperately selling their best players to keep the banks away while trying to keep them up. The club Moyes took over was, frankly, waiting for its turn to be relegated.
Over the next 10 years not only did he build a club that, save for the odd wobble, only went in one direction, he also did so while balancing the books to such a good degree that Everton now have some semblance of financial stability. If you consider the fates of similar sized clubs like Blackburn, Fulham, Stoke or West Ham and how they did over the same period as Moyes was in charge then you have to say that Moyes did well.
The fact that Martinez could come in and, with just two or three key changes, move the club forward is to the credit of Moyes, not to his detriment.
Could Moyes have moved the club further himself as Martinez has so far? Probably not. Moyes focussed on being hard to beat, physical and "only playing good football when the battle has been won" (as commentators used to say when I was a kid). I think it was those features that gave a club with, frankly, less than stellar players the ability to continually compete at the top end. However its very hard to then make a full turnaround and begin to focus on possession and attacking play.
But that doesn't mean he didn't do a great job at Everton.
I think the biggest of Fergie evolution as a manager comes on two things: his willingness to become more conservative in European away games, and the ability to delegates tasks to his coaching staff. Furthermore, Fergie may not be the finished article, but it was clear that he was ready for a bigger job than Aberdeen, and his team is always played the right way
I think he shouldn't get paid for dragging us down.
Comparisons between SAF and Moyes when they first took over the club should be extremely one sided. Moyes did an excellent job at Everton but SAF's work at Aberdeen was far more impressive. Beyond that, SAF's strengths at Aberdeen would seem to have been far better suited and transferable to a top club than Moyes' strengths at Everton.
Obviously hindsight distorts perceptions but it certainly seems that SAF stood out as a managerial talent in a way that Moyes never quite did. His achievements would probably be closer to that of Mourinho at Porto than Moyes at Everton, no?
Obviously hindsight distorts perceptions but it certainly seems that SAF stood out as a managerial talent in a way that Moyes never quite did. His achievements would probably be closer to that of Mourinho at Porto than Moyes at Everton, no?
The amount of teams in that list of remaining fixtures that have already beaten this season really is depressing. And the lesser of those teams actually beat us on our ground. I honestly can't see him lasting these fixtures.
My concern is that if he does actually manage to do well in the next few games yet still drops points in the remaining run of fixtures, that would keep him in his job till next season. I remember saying in another thread that I would never want us to lose a game, but considering his job must be on a knife edge and we have nothing at all to play for, then forgive me for saying that for the greater good, I hope we actually do.
My concern is that if he does actually manage to do well in the next few games yet still drops points in the remaining run of fixtures, that would keep him in his job till next season. I remember saying in another thread that I would never want us to lose a game, but considering his job must be on a knife edge and we have nothing at all to play for, then forgive me for saying that for the greater good, I hope we actually do.
I can already see him having at least a couple in the bag.
While I understand your post, you would sooner us lose with the aim of the man losing his job? This as opposed to us winning, building confidence and allowing Moyes to actually push on?
I will admit that it is looking increasingly fragile with Moyes. His apparent lack of a 2nd dimension and this policy of chucking it out wide and continuously flogging into the box is indeed running thin.
The worst result from our point of view would be stumbling through the rest of the season as we have been thus far.
If things improved than we'd have more cause for optimism, the sense of crisis around the club would diminish and the players might fall in behind Moyes.
If the results are bad/got worse then at least things would come to a head and Moyes' ill fated reign would come to an end.
Somewhere in the middle would kill us though as fans and players would become further disillusioned to the point where Moyes' departure is inevitable, yet we'd still be some way from that actually happening. That extra wasted time could be the difference between a quick return to the top and a long term struggle.
If things improved than we'd have more cause for optimism, the sense of crisis around the club would diminish and the players might fall in behind Moyes.
If the results are bad/got worse then at least things would come to a head and Moyes' ill fated reign would come to an end.
Somewhere in the middle would kill us though as fans and players would become further disillusioned to the point where Moyes' departure is inevitable, yet we'd still be some way from that actually happening. That extra wasted time could be the difference between a quick return to the top and a long term struggle.
Agreed - he did a good job over his 11 year tenure at Everton.
My point is about his ability to move Utd forward.
Martinez with 2/3 quick changes made a difference, that is not a sleight on Moyes' ground work, more that, he didn't make those changes himself.
Moyes in the same time period has presided over an extremely disappointing campaign, somehow managing to misplace all that was good about Utd and not putting anything back in its place. Coaching staff, leadership, playing style, desire, confidence and will to win all gone.
If over the course of the remainder of the season, Moyes could impose a more progressive, attacking football style, a positive winning mentality, confidence and belief etc, he may well save the day and his job, but as things stand, it is difficult to see the turn around.
If you have definitively lost confidence in Moyes, then hoping for results that would lead to his departure as soon as possible is logically consistent, particularly as our remaining league games are dead rubbers (unless you have any strong feeling as to which also-ran position we occupy below 4th). I understand why some people are unable to accept that, particularly when we are talking about games against City and Liverpool, but I think the stakes are too high - we can survive one disastrous season but after two it gets progressively more difficult and expensive to reclaim lost ground. I think such considerations are probably academic anyway - following the collapse in Athens, I think the players' confidence in Moyes is too far gone for a late season revival.
As an aside, did anyone see Calderon's (ex-RM chairman) comments on Moyes - beyond the obvious "we would have sacked him", he said that Madrid's sponsorship payments are linked to CL appearances and he believed that United's would be the same.
Our sponsorship with Chevrolet we already know isn't related to CL appearances. As for other existing agreements, who knows. Difficult timing with regards to our Nike sponsorship tho.
I agree. The problem is for me, is that I really think he's lost parts of the dressing room. No direct evidence of course, although after people leave in the summer we may get a better idea of exactly what is going on there. However, I just don't think the team have the spirit, fight or cohesion at the moment to have the confidence or hunger to improve things that much.
Indeed. The story from Raphael Honigstein to that effect I thought was wholly believable. For he's one of the comparatively few journalists I trust (though of course his sources could still be wrong.)
But even beyond that you only have to look at the players to believe its true. There's no sense of do or die, no sense of collective unity, no urgency. No fight.
Even worse, he may change a few players in the summer, but the majority of those players are still here next year. What can he do between now and then to put things right?
My issue is - what, if any, of the skills/knowledge/know-how from his time at Everton are immediately transferable to what is expected from him as Manager of Manchester United? We don't need to balance the books, we don't need to operate on a shoe-string budget, we need to be more than hard to beat (and we're not even that currently), and our players are more than stellar.
Someone earlier has made reference to his great purchases whilst at Everton for little money - which I won't argue with, but ultimately, is that something we need at Old Trafford? Buying good players for little expenditure? Also, out of all of those players mentioend - only two (Arteta and Fellaini) have gone on to bigger things, suggesting that Moyes basically bought players for a level at which Everton was their ceiling - when really, with such a good eye for a transfer - you'd have maybe thought he might have brought in more players who were above Evertons level.
It was always a worrying thought, when the appointment was made, that this was exactly the logic behind the appointment. Although Im sure that isnt actually the reason, it nags in the back of the mind. Of course, if that was the reason in the first instance then it has spectacularly backfired as we have already spent plenty since he arrived and there is evidently much more to come.
To be fair - I've probably come across a lot harsher than actually intended... as of course, buying good players on the cheap is an extremely good skill to have - and we obviously can still use that attribute at United... but I think my point was that it's not really the main thing we look at when making transfers.
But yes, so far, he's clearly going down the big spending route, but we can't just spend £20m + on every player we aquire from now on.
I think I know what you meant. Some managers have a real talent for finding hidden gems for £5m that will prove to be stars at a club like Everton. But it is questionable how useful that is for us. Someone who has consistently spent well at the top end of the market would seem like a more applicable skill, and being good at one thing doesnt necessarily make you good at the other.
Moyes has dropped the bar so low that at the start of the season it was generally accepted that if we finished outside the top 4 at the end of the season then he would have to go.....
The bar is so low now and that has turned into.....If Moyes can at least make the team look good in 1 match they play between now and the end of the season then maybe that is a sign that he should get more time
And often for Fergie and Champions League football it was never easy attracting the cream of Europe and often the fans were left disappointed when Fergie missed out on his top targets over the summers and instead decided to promote from within or take a punt on a cheaper option to see it they come good with time.......Can you imagine the chaos on this forum when Kroos signs for Madrid and Gundogan goes to Bayern leaving Moyes saying in that tortured face of his something ridiculous like 'Tom will be like a new signing and I expect much more this season from Tom Cleverley than last'
The bar is so low now and that has turned into.....If Moyes can at least make the team look good in 1 match they play between now and the end of the season then maybe that is a sign that he should get more time
And often for Fergie and Champions League football it was never easy attracting the cream of Europe and often the fans were left disappointed when Fergie missed out on his top targets over the summers and instead decided to promote from within or take a punt on a cheaper option to see it they come good with time.......Can you imagine the chaos on this forum when Kroos signs for Madrid and Gundogan goes to Bayern leaving Moyes saying in that tortured face of his something ridiculous like 'Tom will be like a new signing and I expect much more this season from Tom Cleverley than last'
Sometimes the best players are the ones no one else is looking at, but that’s for when you have an established squad. We can’t afford to find a hidden gem and develop him for a few seasons, we need players who can come straight into the starting 11, and not only improve the team but help us to become the leading force again.
Is Moyes capable of doing that? I’m not so sure, when you’ve been working on a shoe string budget for so long it would be hard to then spend wisely when you have a blank cheque book. I don’t believe the squad needs taking apart and rebuilding but I fear that’s what Moyes has in mind, I’m not looking forward to the summer, it’s going to be a depressing time unless we get the players we need, and keep our best.
Enlighten me then what he was referring to.
In fairness, I think you're taking something he had no control over and are then using it as a stick to beat him with. He certainly wasn't bought in due to his record in the transfer market.
He was brought in to motivate the team, to continue the team spirit that has underpinned the club, to give solidity on and off the pitch and to ensure that we are always, at least, competitive when we play. That's where he's failed. The other stuff he was expected over the years, guided by others around him.
It didnt really feel like I was beating him, to be fair, more just holding the stick up to look at it and let other people examine it.
Nice post.
I didn't hear him personally, but he was quoted on the Cafe.
At the end of the summer, I said to myself: "This guy is our Hodgson." I used to read RAWK in the bad old days (for you) and there's an ominous echo on the present day Cafe. A few diehards defending the indefensible, and other posters gradually recognizing the horror of their predicament.
There was a happy outcome for you. I'm not sure we're going to escape anytime soon though.
I think managers do learn, how much I don't know. Let's be clear I'm not defending Moyes or anything just stating that it's not impossible for him to learn.
And I agree. We needed a ready made manager who had charisma and a personality to be able to cope with probably the hardest managerial vacancy in footballing history.
Like I just said, I'm not saying it's guaranteed Moyes will learn. Simply saying that managers do learn and it's not impossible to change a philosophy. Whether it's likely to happen is another question, just saying its possible.
Excellent.
Obviously the structure at the club is only there because of success. If Moyes were to be at the helm and our results were mirrored at this exact point in 2015, I would be dumbfounded. This club has way too many investors to allow mediocrity. It is a structure that needs capital investment and a regular income to go with. There are a number of underlying reasons why Moyes is still there and they are marshaled by the overwhelming presence of Sir Alex Ferguson. Ultimately, Fergie will have the say in this (IMO). He has happily stated that 'they will be fine' so, we have to persevere. Saw the article yea. Straight down the middle - you do not succeed, we find somebody who will.