I agree. Moyes is not the man for the job, in my opinion, but I in noway agree with the suggestion that Moyes is a bad manager, because he's not.
Moyes has to go
- Thread starter Orton
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I suppose that this farce of playing Cleverley ahead of Fellaini in the Olympiakos game was based on two things: underestimating Olympiakos ( or more like, not expecting us to play an utter shite there ) and naturally, Fellaini is straight back from an injury so he's lacking some fitness here and there and should be throw into games carefully.
Would Fellaini have made much of a difference? Doubt it.
was it not a similar line up vs arsenal away? with a different defence. A similar midfield did a great job shutting down a far better Arsenal side and a decent job hitting on the break. I don't really understand why people can't make sense of the selection with this in mind. The defence was shocking but sadly that defence picks itself this season due to injuries and lack of cover
I would have been happy with a 0-0 draw because playing away legs is a lot lot harder in the CL than in the prem and thus we would have been massive favorites to progress
Moyes being out of his depth at United doesn't make him a bad manager (even though I am sure in the heat of the moment I have referred to him as a shit manager).
We've already taken the gamble. Now it's about giving it a chance to come right.
Id say the bigger gamble would be giving him £1-200 million to spend.
what about his transfers in the last 12 years makes you think he's not good at buying players
I think most Everton fans suggested he was great at unearthing bargains but when he spent larger fees it was generally disappointing.
Apples and oranges. He's going after Europe's elite now. All of the names we've been linked with seem highly regarded.
It depends how 'bad' is defined. Moyes is an experienced pro who had made his journey to EPL and then somehow got the United job. The term 'bad' is thrown many times to pro managers/players. Moyes, Allardyce, Pulis, Young, Parker etc aren't shit/bad managers/players. Just not good enough for this level. The 'bad/shit' label is obviously a hyperbole.
Seems to be the consensus, however i think he can correct that here. Not sticking up for Moyes, but spending big money here is different to at Everton. He couldn't really attract the names we can here at Everton. He can now go after Juan Mata and other players of pedigree to spend the big money on, which he couldn't do before. And if he unearths a gem for us then all the better too.
The whole thing with Moyes has just been utterly weird for me. We're not exactly the first club in the world or England to take a manager who has done well at a good club and ask him to take a leap into the highest level of football. Forget the Ferguson factor for a moment. Some of the comments Moyes has made even into the season made him sound like someone who barely knows the players, while I've never seen a situation when a manager simply seems unable to pinpoint transfer targets other than ones he knows well because they have played for him or in England, which is what happened for a large part of last summer. I know we haven't had a new manager for ages, but that was just... Yeah, I'll use that word again - weird. Mind boggling, really. And at the end of the day, pretty pathetic.
Why? Fellaini and Mata are good starts (despite overpaying for Fellaini) and the players we tried to get and are being linked with now are promising.
I'd have no problem letting him spend the cash.
To be fair, his transfer activity has been far from the biggest problem. He's brought in a central midfielder, offloaded Anderson and signed Juan Mata. Also, you have to remember that he's tied Rooney, Januzaj and Nani on long term contracts.
Yeah, I don't really doubt the level of quality he'll target in the summer. I question the maintained tactics throughout the season, even with the addition of Mata there's an over emphasis on getting the ball wide.
I don’t believe it was, well we had Mata, Rafael and Januzaj was on the bench that night. Ill never understand why he keeps playing Smalling at RB, on each occasion he has played there he has been terrible, so bad in fact I have to laugh now or else id cry. Smalling is a CB, not a bad one at that, he will never be a RB, no matter how many times he’s played there.
The team selection stunk of same old same old which hasn’t worked at all season, our defence was so slow and by picking Ferdinand our play became hoof ball at times, why on Earth did he keep Januzaj at home and not play Kagawa, who has been very good in Europe this year.
Bear in mind that a decision can be perfectly logical at the time, but turn out wrong. You can't predict the future, you can only make decisions based on the best available evidence in front of you.
What would be highly illogical (Captain) would be to ignore new evidence in favour of the old evidence you used to base your decision on at the time. Both should be considered together.
Thats the camp I'm in. I was a bit underwhelmed by Moyes appointment, but thought it a logical choice & was happy to give him time. Here was a guy who knew the premier league, who would have the players fighting for him, who would have us hard to beat. He'd have to learn on the job, especially in terms of playing with flair and playing abroad, but we'd have to trust that he could do that over time. Instead, not only do we get the downsides we expected, every supposed strength has turned out to be a major weakness too.
I still want Moyes to do well - for me, his face fits. But I fail to see how anyone could conclude that he will, based on what we've seen.
I just think he wanted to play like we did vs arsenal, with two good defensive players. I don't really blame moyes for how the defense lined out, evans jones and rafa were injured so that leaves evra rio vidic smalling and.... buttner. Yes a back up right back has to be high on the agenda, but until then, with jones injured, i don't see much of a choice
We're now in the process of raising the bets.
We paid the ante. We got a 5 and a 7 (not suited). Fold or raise?
Well of course there is still a chance we could hit a 7, 7, 5 or a 7, 7, 7.. But...
I think we also have to consider that merely signing the elite players across Europe is not the solution as long as we don't change the system. Our players aren't as bad as they've been made out to be this season. Henderson is not that much better than Cleverley. Some might even argue that Tom's progression last season was better than Henderson. Yet all of a sudden this season under Rodgers Henderson is playing like a man possessed but Cleverley is floundering. The system has to change first and as a consequence it would be easier to justify giving Moyes 200m. If we spend 200m on great players first up but stick them in our rigid system our manager's position will be untenable.
But most of the players he has identified, gone for or linked with are pretty much well known established players, I can draw up that kinda list, so can you and pretty much anyone that plays FM. United will not/should not spend crazy like City, Chelsea, PSG etc. therefore we should be getting players in that have the potential to be great players (Ronaldo, Evra, Vidic) as well as some established ones (Mata, RVP, Kagawa to an extent).
Then, it is down to whether Moyes can or cannot use these players in the right way. Whether his tactics suit them, his man-management etc. Now I'm not supporting or criticising Moyes in this post, it's impossible to know how shrewd he is in the transfer market or whether he can see a diamond in the rough with regards to a club as big as United. Only time can show this, but then do we take the risk of finding out or do we let a manager with proven abilities at the highest level take over and cut our losses now.... It really is a tough call.
He may bring in quality players, he may also panic when he doesn’t get those players and buy substandard alternatives. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt as he seems to be looking at the right type of player.
My concern about giving him the money isn’t what type of player he brings in, it’s if he fails to get the best out of them, will the new manager want to keep them, or will he want to build yet another new team. I could use Chelsea as an example, who would have thought Mata wouldn’t be in Mourinhio’s plans. It’s a massive gamble, all these ‘new players’ will be signing big contracts so it won’t be a case of getting rid and starting again, we will be stuck with them for years.
Absolutely. I don't see Fellaini lasting long under Moyes' successor.
Valencia would have been a better option at RB with Smalling in the middle beside Vidic.
Depends who Moyes successor is.
The club thus far has shown the inclination of trusting the dangerously bizarre managerial suggestions of Bobby Charlton and Fergie, and they might do so again.
Last summer the two of them had Guardiola and Jose completely free and they picked Davey Moyes. So with those two tied to other projects now, Lord knows who they'd go for next.
The same gamble any club faces whenever they sign a new manager.
It's also the main reason why United seem to want to give Moyes a season or two in charge before they write off his whole project.
It's a risk continuing to back someone who is clearly struggling but giving up on a long-term project too early is also a very expensive risk.
Agreed that giving manager some time to implement his idea and style is actually necessary. But there should be certain minimum standard he/she has to fulfill, when they get the financial backing already. No one should be given a 'free pass', even on his first season. As in any job the world, the first season supposed to be 'evaluation time', where assessment on new employee performance is being made. (yeah, this point is actually been recycled many times).
I was questioning fans who want to give any new manager 2 years, regardless of the result; just because "to show the world that United are different", as a poster before my earlier post suggested; but then wanted hundreds of million has to be spent on players, exactly like other sugar daddys clubs do.
But like you said, it's all opinion though, whether Moyes tenure so far is still good enough to give him a second year. He may turn into a world beater next year, for all we know. And, i'll be more than glad to be proved wrong on this
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Do you honestly think Ferguson will be trusted with selecting Moyes' successor? He'll be involved in the process, no doubt, I'd say there's likely to be an interview process next time round. With the Glazer's present.
I don't know. However, Ferguson's stubbornness and inability to appoint an even passable successor concern me, and it seems that his borderline obsessive desire that we 'honour our traditions' are coming at the expense of the club.
Nobody could argue that David Moyes has been anything but bad for the club, and yet we're in this weird situation where it seems we're effectively stuck with him until Ferguson decides that we've had enough. It's an odd scenario, and it's completely unacceptable.
I don't know what's going on behind closed doors, and perhaps in reality Ferguson is involved in rectifying the mistake he made and in fact values what's best for the club more than he values saving face over the appointment.
Of course, this is nothing new - it was Ferguson's behaviour that lead to us being bought by the Glazers. But you can forgive that when he is (or was, at the time) still our manager and bringing us victory.
At present though, it almost seems like he's becoming very similar to one of these mad, eccentric owners, but one that has no official status as such - and no financial stake in the club - thus, he can't really be held accountable for any of the odd decisions or public statements he has made and might be making in the future.
To be honest the club has never been in this position before. We have absolutely no way of knowing what direction this is gonna take, as we've nothing to base our estimations on, other than gut feeling. My gut still tells me he'll be sacked halfway through next season, Ferguson's blessing or not.
I agree, however other clubs would expect the standards to remain the same until the investment is made. That's why I see it as more of a gamble if that makes sense?
I would love to back Moyes again, when he first started I said I would back him as long as we remained competitive, or at the very least proved to us that he was the man how to keep us competitive in the long run. He's shown none of that for me, and that's why I think the club may be taking a massive gamble on a manager who has looked out if his depth the entire season.
What you expect depends on how big the task at hand is. Presumably his past performance makes him, in the eyes of the board, qualified to do what needs tone done or he wouldn't have been appointed.
You also judge him of whether he has had the tools he was promised to do his job.
It's a two way street. Moyes was vocal when he took over, presumably based on what he was told, that the club would get him top players to address areas of concern. That didn't happen.
The performance of the upper management of the club can be criticised as much as Moyes.
Does it matter? It was a relatively simple point.
If you have a point to make then make it rather than playing some kind of semantic game show.
The issue I find hard to understand is why the club thought it appropriate to take such a gamble. Taking over from the greatest British manager of all time, after 26 years, was always going to carry the risk of being a bumpy ride, particularly when combined with the fact that Fergie left some holes in the squad. In such circumstances, you would think the logical response would be to minimise the risk. Instead, the club raised the stakes by adding additional risk by the appointment of a manager unproven at this level (very capable premier league manager though he is). Fergie the gambler once again?
Wasn't Guardiola long tied to Bayern?
Looking at what the vast majority of Europe's top clubs do would concern the owners. Most make short term appointments and managers move on every three or so years. That means potentially backing a new manager with a transfer budget and having to sell of expensive players whose faces no longer fit.
Moyes represents a different option, someone who has shown loyalty and patience learning the job and who might have the ability to step up a level.
The club being listed probably influenced this. Investors like certainty, and continuous turnover of staff can cost a fortune - unlike in other businesses.
Its a sombering thought that the club picked David Moyes...ahead of Pep Guardiola, Jose Mourinho, and Carlo Ancelotti.
Sombering, and absolutely terrifying.
Please please please please tell me he actually said that.
If he did, that's a Full Hodgson. You never go Full Hodgson.
He did