Signings good? I have just heard that he is after Arteta who only has one year to go at arsenal. Moyes - sticks to what he knows - Everton syndrome.
Moyes has to go
- Thread starter Orton
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I'd love to know what direction he intends to take us, if he even knows anyway. We've had no real consistent game plan, and our two signings have been completely contrasting player's. Over forty games, is it? And we've no idea how he wants us to play. Amazing.
But you think he should be given another year to continue to do so? Despite the fact that the only positive thing he's done is making his job a very attractive proposition to any successor. Provided United offer suitable largesse, I imagine any top manager would be delighted to take over - jobs with huge prestige, huge resources and a virtual guarantee of improving on your predecessor are hard to find.
It's not a question of an immediate emotional reaction to any particular bad performance for me; I thought he was wrong early on, and everything that's happened since has confirmed that opinion. The tea lady could have gotten more from our players.
Exactly, and don't think a win against WBA will make a difference, we shouldn't be worrying about beating WBA.
Can't disagree with anything in here. He's been awful, the players have been awful. It's been awful all round. I don't think anyone can defend that, and that's not what I'm doing.
I'm just suggesting that time is crucial here. Fergie was a genius and got the best out of this squad but another season on we've lost the best manager ever, some players are now firmly past it and some have seriously tailed off.
I like what I've seen from Moyes away from the football pitch (moving Giggs into coaching, the signings he's made, how he's dealt with Rooney etc) and time is the big thing needed to fix this and get himself used to the expectations of such a massive club.
I know most have lost patience long ago and want shot of him but personally I think he should be given the chance to turn it around going into next season when he can have taken everything in and thoroughly assessed the squad.
Not saying he will turn it round, just that I'm prepared to give it some more time.
So we're slagging him off for tabloid rumours now then?
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So no cognitive dissonance for you, then.
The fluctuating opinions are obviously going to come from people who thought we were in for a rocky road and that Moyes should be given time to show what he can do. With each awful performance it's very easy to forget the rationale you had for allowing him time in the first place. It's not easy sticking to a long-term vision, when there's no evidence in the here and now to reinforce it. That doesn't automatically make the decision invalid. Not so long as your original logic stands up to scrutiny.
I would be in a similar boat to Carl. After a really poor performance, it's very hard not to have an emotional response and ignore your more rationale opinion on the bigger picture. Obviously, at this stage most people would have wanted a lot more evidence of progress by now but there are mitigating factors. His only two signings only being available to start a single game together, for starters.
I personally think the "negativity" is being overplayed and he's mainly guilty of being reluctant to change from the approach that Fergie preferred, combined with a bunch of players who are so shook by the departure of SAF that they can't even deliver the same football they played, week in, week out, in previous seasons. I'm sticking with my original idea that I would reserve judgement until the end of the season. In the 24-36 hours after Olympiakos this was incredibly hard to do. Once that emotional stage is over, though. it's easier to be rational about what is going on. That's life as a football fan.
Does he really have a plan for how United should play? He seems more worried about negating the opposition, as witnessed in Tuesday's horror show with Valencia and Young to the fore. I really doubt there is some underlying grand scheme that he has been keeping to himself - he's what you see, an old school British manager, valuing perspiration above all and puzzled why Everton methods aren't translating to United.
Yes because he's a better manager than he's showing. Like some players take time to adjust and settle to a much bigger club I think Moyes has gone through that too.
What is happening at Everton suggests that Martinez may have taken what Moyes left and taken it onto another level, certainly a more positive and progressive style of football. Martinez appears to be getting more out of the same players than Moyes did whilst adding missing ingredients that are 'threatening' to take Everton into the Champions League places. Suggests to me that Moyes is limited in vision and style - whilst that doesn't make him a bad manager it does explain to some extent his lack of success during his time at Everton - he isn't a winner.
[If this is the case], it would go some way to explaining why there are reports that the dressing room is lost. In 40 years of watching Utd I can find no other reason to explain the shambles last Tuesday. There appears to be a lack of leadership emanating down from Moyes which has displayed itself in the players' lack of belief, winning mentality and confusion. The most disappointing thing about Tuesday was the lack of a response, the picture of Moyes slumped in his seat reflected on the pitch with a performance that must rank as an all time low - 1 shot and that not even on target. This was our last hope of glory, against Olympiakos, last 16 CL game and we appeared happy to take a 2-0 deficit back to OT.
Utd soon face a tough ten days with games against Liverpool, Olympiakos and City not to mention tough away games at WBA and WHU. Series of poor results and similar performances to last Tuesday and I think the players lack of belief will be reflected in the stands of Old Trafford. I would like to highlight the other side of the coin, a series of good performances resulting in our progression in the CL and a barnstorming finish to the season but there is nothing for me to grab hold of which suggests that a Moyes led Utd can achieve that. Out of the CL, spiralling towards the worst PL finish, and the powers that be on the Board will have difficulty backing up Sir Alex's assertion that all will be fine. What's more will the Glazer's trust Moyes to spend £100-150Million given his performance so far, especially when the value of the club is falling and sponsors may not be quite so keen to pay the big bucks on sponsorship deals. Should be an interesting summer.
[If this is the case], it would go some way to explaining why there are reports that the dressing room is lost. In 40 years of watching Utd I can find no other reason to explain the shambles last Tuesday. There appears to be a lack of leadership emanating down from Moyes which has displayed itself in the players' lack of belief, winning mentality and confusion. The most disappointing thing about Tuesday was the lack of a response, the picture of Moyes slumped in his seat reflected on the pitch with a performance that must rank as an all time low - 1 shot and that not even on target. This was our last hope of glory, against Olympiakos, last 16 CL game and we appeared happy to take a 2-0 deficit back to OT.
Utd soon face a tough ten days with games against Liverpool, Olympiakos and City not to mention tough away games at WBA and WHU. Series of poor results and similar performances to last Tuesday and I think the players lack of belief will be reflected in the stands of Old Trafford. I would like to highlight the other side of the coin, a series of good performances resulting in our progression in the CL and a barnstorming finish to the season but there is nothing for me to grab hold of which suggests that a Moyes led Utd can achieve that. Out of the CL, spiralling towards the worst PL finish, and the powers that be on the Board will have difficulty backing up Sir Alex's assertion that all will be fine. What's more will the Glazer's trust Moyes to spend £100-150Million given his performance so far, especially when the value of the club is falling and sponsors may not be quite so keen to pay the big bucks on sponsorship deals. Should be an interesting summer.
Martinez's Everton are still a bit of an unknown, there's no telling if he'll be able to carry this on into next season or if this is just a 1 off fluke season. Also, Lukaku is probably better than any forward Moyes has worked with at Everton in recent years and the difference in results with him/without him is obvious. A quality striker alone can sometimes make the difference between a couple league positions.
Also, for all this "next level" talk that Martinez has brought to Everton what level is this exactly? I'll give you that they play an attractive brand of football but they currently sit in 6th (around where Moyes had them finishing consistantly) and they're on a pretty identical points total to last season at this stage.
David Gill said we weren't looking for someone who would want to make big changes, either to the coaching side, or to the playing staff (bringing in one or two players and one or two staff would be ok). He added that someone who viewed the job in that light would be the wrong person for us (I can't recall his exact words). It would appear that our original logic has gone out of the window.
Regarding the part in bold, I just have this feeling that we'll end up disappointed yet again. There have been so many excuses, and so many moments of hope that we have felt may turn around our season that just haven't materialised. The biggest one was getting Rooney and RvP fit at the same time and starting together. It's hardly done any good to our form, and was one of the biggest excuses used for the season so far. Then there was the signing of Mata, which many thought could REALLY rejuvenate the team but once again, this hasn't happened. The trip to Dubai or wherever they went - that was another moment that I felt would give us a boost. We then played Palace and put in a decent performance but are then deflated by Olympiakos. The hope is gone almost as soon as it arrives. And I feel the Fellaini/Mata thing is just another excuse.
I'd agree with a lot of your post though, particularly the reluctance to be brave and try something new. With pretty much nothing to play for now, he surely has to be experimenting more. He has to show some strong signs of improvement between now and the end of the season. If not, it would be hard to justify keeping him. I'd imagine that's what the top guys at the club are thinking too.
Yeah, that's the big worry for me.
If there's more false dawns between now and the end of the season, that's it for me.
I actually think Mata has made a significant impression already. Even in games where the results didn't go for us, like Fulham and Arsenal. We're retaining possession better and less reliant on long balls out of the back. I've no doubt we've had been far better against Olympiakos with him in the side.
With Mata and Fellaini both fit and available (fingers crossed!) for the league run in, I want to see that Moyes knows how to use them and see how big an impact they can have on the team and the type of football we can expect to play in the future.
Considering Fellaini only played at the weekend to keep the mighty Tom Cleverley fit for Olympiakos, that's probably asking a lot.
He's definitely a better manager than he showing, I don't think anyone would question that. Should we really be the club that gambles on him though? I just wish he gave us something to cling on to, but there's nothing I can think of apart from negative football.
I think he will be given at least 3 years by the club to sort it out, if he gets it wrong it could take us a further 3 to sort it out.
You think Cleverley features more prominently in Moyes' long term plans than Fellaini? Seriously?
Moyes is a good manager, anyone who suggests otherwise is wrong. He's a good manager at a great club. I don't see him growing into the role personally, he hasn't got that oomph.
I doubt he does but it is odd that he didnt play Fellaini in the CL. I was more disappointed with both Valencia and Young starting but for me the most puzzling selection on the day was Cleverley instead of Fellaini.
If Moyes was a more modern manager I think he would be great. I fear he's to stuck in his ways to change, much like Fergie was, difference is he had trophy after trophy to back him up, something which Moyes will never have I fear.
I just can't see a way Moyes can make it here, hopefully he pulls his finger out and marks his stamp on the team, he needs to say feck the a United way I'm doing it my way.
It's the hope that kills you
Of course not, this season though Fellaini's been way behind the pecking order.
I haven't any hope.If Moyes was a more modern manager I think he would be great. I fear he's to stuck in his ways to change, much like Fergie was, difference is he had trophy after trophy to back him up, something which Moyes will never have I fear.
I just can't see a way Moyes can make it here, hopefully he pulls his finger out and marks his stamp on the team, he needs to say feck the a United way I'm doing it my way.
It's the hope that kills you
I'm going through the motions 'til he's sacked if I'm being honest.For me, the most puzzling selection decisions was the omission of Kagawa.
Re Fellaini, it's his first ever season of CL football and he still needs to get used to the different standards of refereeing. A red card in his last game won't have helped his chances of getting the nod.
This season he's been mainly unfit or injured. We'll have a better idea of where he fits in Moyes plans by the end of the season. Just one of many reasons why I'm reserving judgement.
Yes I figured it was a question of experience, but I still disagreed with it. The Kagawa thing was also totally the wrong decision but I wasnt surprised about that one either because Kagawa hadnt played for a month or something. If he had played for half an hour or so against Palace I would have expected him to start. Kagawa not playing was the worst decision of the night in terms of selection but it is the other side of the selecting Young coin.
When you're touting Fellaini as the potential knight in shining armour, it's time to give it up.
Your mind is made up about the player and the manager months ago, so that's no great surprise.
My main concern with Fellaini is that I don't see Moyes' successor holding much value for him.
Spot on.
Fellaini wasnt the only one who would have benefited from the experience either. I thought Januzaj should have been on the bench for the same reason (setting aside the fact he would have been an asset on the pitch), the atmosphere away at Olympiakos is something Januzaj will need to get used to sooner or later, it would have been nice for him to get a taste of it, even if he didnt come off the bench.
Surely that should result in a semi-acceptable performance level, rather than the disaster we've seen so far.
Are you trying to imply that the people who think that Moyes will succeed are the rational ones, and the people who think he won't succeed are the irrational ones?
He has us seventh, most club's would view that as good?
In all seriousness, you don't honestly think Moyes is a terrible manager? He's a good manager, just not befitting of Manchester United.
It's been done to death but the direction this threads taken today that is the key to whole affair, the only change the club has made has been the manager.
If he has any sense whatsoever, the Olympiacos should be the end of the Valencia-Young persistence and to be honest, 4-4-2 completely.
Everyone in this squad (bar Valencia) fits much better into a 4-2-3-1 formation with tactics that don't involve just getting wide and crossing yet they are continually shoehorned into that tactic.
It get's better use out of Rooney which in turn helps Van Persie but the biggest positive to the formation is that Januzak, Mata and Kagawa all play best in it. Our three best midfielders play a holding role well in Carrick, Jones and Fellaini too.
There really is no explanation for it let alone excuse.
Why wasn't Cleverley played in Crystal Palace, and then Fellaini played against Olympiacos?
Or at least Fellaini subbed off early against Palace, and started against Palace? I don't think Cleverley features long term in his plans, but he's making questionable decisions in how he manages players in the amount they play and when..
Er... No... No idea how you inferred that from my post.
All I'm saying is that it's hard to be rational in the immediate aftermath of a bad performance/result.
I'm still can't believe the team set up and selection for the Olympiacos game, it was our worst performance ever in the knock out stages of the UCL IMO, against one of the competitions weakest opponents. Most posters knew by the selection that we were going to get beat, if we can see it why can't Moyes.
I already gave my theory for that decision.
Cleverley has more CL experience and played well in his last league start, against Arsenal.
Fellaini is still getting used to the differing refereeing standards and got sent off in his last CL start.
Agreed. Most of the things that have gone wrong for David Moyes have at least been partly out of his hands. The summer transfers, the poor form of key players, the injuries.
But persisting with a 4-4-2 all season when it doesn't even suit the players available to him is one of the reasons I have no faith in him.
He has us seventh, most club's would view that as good?
In all seriousness, you don't honestly think Moyes is a terrible manager? He's a good manager, just not befitting of Manchester United.
Any United manager who says: "we're going to make things as hard as we can for Newcastle" is the wrong manager.
In any possible Universe, can you imagine Pep Guardiola, in the run-up to a game against Real Sociedad, saying: "we're going to make things as hard as we can for Sociedad"??