Moyes has to go

[AngeloHenriquez]

No matter who manages us we definitely need a new winger. Our range of attacking midfielders bar Januzaj and Mata needs a serious mix up.

Depends what formation we play, if we stick to 2 up front and need 2 wingers and 2 CM's, or 3 AM's and a DM, either way the 2 would be Mata/Januzaj with the 3 adding Kagawa.

Quite simply, that leaves Ashley Young, Valencia, Lingard, Zaha and that's without cover such as Welbeck etc

I'm not arguing we necessarily have the quality (Although I believe we do), however my point is that too many people will have to leave for us to bring a decent winger IMO..

 

[Shinjisan]

We need wingers who can come inside and give us two options like Hazard does for Chelsea, Robben and Ribery do for Bayern etc. Otherwise the archaic plan A will never end.

Do you think a team consisting of Scholes and Keane in central midfield, with Giggs and Beckham on the sides and two top class strikers ahead would not be successful in this day and age? Will they play archaic football? Has football changed that dramatically from 10 years ago that a team with those players and style would be considered obsolete?

*of course I am talking about those players in their prime.

 

[B20]

Man City, Liverpool and Tottenham have managed to attract players that would walk into our first team currently when they didn't have Champions League football, stability, or a great manager at the helm.

That is only partly true.

We saw seen Costa, Willian and Mkhitaryan slip away from us last summer. Salah in January. Basically, whenever a CL club has entered the picture, we've been left behind.

The likes of Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho and Sakho, or even Mignolet, Henderson, Allen and Ilori were signed without competition from CL clubs (The likes of Borini, Assaidi, Aspas, Alberto & Toure go without saying).

Even youngsters like Sterling, Suso and Shelvey were signed under Benitez.

And looking at ex-players signed since he left, I don't think we had competition from CL clubs for Downing, Meireles, Bellamy, Adam, Doni, Carroll (lol), Poulsen (even more lol), Konchesky (LOLZ), Jones (stop it!) or J. Cole (fecks sake).

Maybe there was interest in Enrique and Coates. I don't recall there being any, but those two, Meireles and Doni were the only ones I'd even imagine CL clubs looking at of ex-players signed since we dropped out of top four.

The only 'coup' we've really managed since exiting the CL is getting Sahin on loan ahead of Arsenal. yay.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Ok then there are no major disagreements here. Of course the players who leave need replacing, especially Evra. However, I would rather another manager get the chance to choose the new players, than try again with Moyes.

I agree with that I was willing to give him another window and time till Christmas but the performances, tactics, team selections this calendar year have been truly shocking. And I don't even need to talk about the results in these games. I think he's a decent bloke and a decent manager but just not cut out for the biggest job in football.

 

[Rowem]

I


He had no choice but to play him. He wasn't in the starting 11 at the begining of the season and was brought in at the time when Moyes started to realise that a spark was needed because in fact, ever since he got here we have played like shite. The problem now is that he doesn't have 8 more Januzajs.

Bollocks. I want Moyes out as much as anyone but there's no need to twist EVERYTHING he does against him. He has showed a lot of faith in Januzaj and he certainly wasn't forced to play him so frequently or integrate him as quickly as he did.

 

[B20]

I can see it being 5 matches too.. West Brom, Liverpool, Olympiakos, West Ham, Manchester City. There's a strong possibility of us going out to Olympiakos even if we win that game, a defeat to either Liverpool or City could easily mean he goes.

I am very happy you've got the olympiakos game before us. I can't see him getting sacked without gwtting a chance to rescue his job by progressing in the champions league.

Which basically means we can hammer you and he'd still be in a job.

 

[B20]

One off against a really good Liverpool side. I don't think this Liverpool team is better personally.

Maybe not better overall, but we are far more lethal going forwards. And showing it against good sides as well.

Won't need a benitez -level defence against your current side, I reckon.

FWIW, we currently have more points after 27 games than we had after 27 games in 09.

 

[Smores]

For all the talk of our attacking style our midfield and attackers are scoring at a similar rate, RvP absence obviously affecting total,goals.

Its actually our defence where the difference is, they've scored less and conceded more. Some of that is down to less possession and facing more shots.

It might be an unpopular opinion here but with Carrick, Rafael and RvP fit as much as previous season I think we'd be challenging on all fronts.

 

[Shinjisan]

That is only partly true.

We saw seen Costa, Willian and Mkhitaryan slip away from us last summer. Salah in January. Basically, whenever a CL club has entered the picture, we've been left behind.

The likes of Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho and Sakho, or even Mignolet, Henderson, Allen and Ilori were signed without competition from CL clubs (The likes of Borini, Assaidi, Aspas, Alberto & Toure go without saying).

Even youngsters like Sterling, Suso and Shelvey were signed under Benitez.

And looking at ex-players signed since he left, I don't think we had competition from CL clubs for Downing, Meireles, Bellamy, Adam, Doni, Carroll (lol), Poulsen (even more lol), Konchesky (LOLZ), Jones (stop it!) or J. Cole (fecks sake).

Maybe there was interest in Enrique and Coates. I don't recall there being any, but those two, Meireles and Doni were the only ones I'd even imagine CL clubs looking at of ex-players signed since we dropped out of top four.

The only 'coup' we've really managed since exiting the CL is getting Sahin on loan ahead of Arsenal. yay.

You think Falcao, James Rodriguez and Moutinho singed for Monaco because there was no competition for them from CL clubs? How about Witsel and Hulk going to Russia? Do you think players are that short sighted that they won't be able to differentiate a temporary dip from permanent decline?

 

[Dans]

I reckon there is a massive disconnect between many of the players and Moyes. RVP especially seems to be a forlorn figure these days - he's not enjoying his football.

The older players are obviously casualties as far as Moyes is concerned, so there's no leadership anymore (that could be Carrick, but when you hear him speak, leader is not an adjective that springs to mind). Paying Rooney 300k a week (300 fecking thousands pounds per week) smacks of desperation to me. Rooney has always been about the money. He's a good player, puts himself about, works hard, but that kind of money is mad, but worst of all, he's now being touted as captain material when clearly, in my opinion anyway, he is not. He's too self centered, although I agree his play can be seen as an example to follow, but I am not convinced he'S the right personality for that role.

Also, frankly, many of the younger players are not up to it. I can't believe people rave about Smalling. His passing is atrocious. He cannot cross a ball to save his life and generally he seems to trip himself up far too often. An elegant player he is not. So why's he being played at right back at all?? Hello David Moyes? Why? I would rather Valencia there and that's saying something.

Moyes also gives the impression of being tactically inept and that can only serve to increase the disconnect - see RVPs reaction to the game.

Moyes has a massive job on his hands and personally I don't think he can handle it. I don't think he has enough about him to bring the best out of world class players like RVP. I have the feeling even Mata will regress in the next couple of years and start to look like a mistake (which he isn't of course, he's a great player).

 

[Dans]

Bollocks. I want Moyes out as much as anyone but there's no need to twist EVERYTHING he does against him. He has showed a lot of faith in Januzaj and he certainly wasn't forced to play him so frequently or integrate him as quickly as he did.

I beg to differ.

 

[MDFC Manager]

I am very happy you've got the olympiakos game before us. I can't see him getting sacked without gwtting a chance to rescue his job by progressing in the champions league.

Which basically means we can hammer you and he'd still be in a job.

I think 3 defeats in those 3 games will mean the end of him but otherwise I see him last till the end of the season.

 

[B20]

You think Falcao, James Rodriguez and Moutinho singed for Monaco because there was no competition for them from CL clubs? How about Witsel and Hulk going to Russia? Do you think players are that short sighted that they won't be able to differentiate a temporary dip from permanent decline?

I think CL clubs were absolutely priced out of trying for those players.

And yes, I think players are generally dimwitted and shorttermist. I imagine most would be thinking "maybe utd is just in a temporary blib. But I can get the same or better pay from Chelsea/City and they are not going through a blib and will match my current ambitions."

I think you'll have far less bargaining chips once you're out of the CL.

Not impossible. Just a lot more difficult if you're competing with top clubs for the same players.

 

[Rowem]

I beg to differ.

You can deny it all you like but the truth is that your contempt for Moyes is blurring your opinion.

 

[Kaos]

Oh i doubt it,after what SAF said about managers not given time in the PL,he wouldn't want to look like a hypocrite.

I suspect that it wont be his call.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Oh i doubt it,after what SAF said about managers not given time in the PL,he wouldn't want to look like a hypocrite.

True, but what was the context when he said it though? He usually said it when a manager doing a decent enough job was surprisingly sacked. Moyes isn't doing a decent enough job.

 

[MDFC Manager]

I think CL clubs were absolutely priced out of trying for those players.

And yes, I think players are generally dimwitted and shorttermist. I imagine most would be thinking "maybe utd is just in a temporary blib. But I can get the same or better pay from Chelsea/City and they are not going through a blib and will match my current ambitions."

I think you'll have far less bargaining chips once you're out of the CL.

Not impossible. Just a lot more difficult if you're competing with top clubs for the same players.

Now how about we don't have CL for a year but Moyes gets replaced by a new, more reputed manager in the summer and the players in question get offered similar financial packages to City and Chelsea (I don't think them 2 even offer exorbitant wages, they seem to spend more on fees). I suspect it won't be a straightforward choice in such a case.

 

[Talking Vulture]

We had 68 points after 27 games last season. That would put us 8 clear this season. Moyes is a fecking disaster. Hate the cnut

 

[Dans]

You can deny it all you like but the truth is that your contempt for Moyes is blurring your opinion.

I just don't think Januzaj, aged 18, would have played many games at all had Ferguson been in charge this year. He would have had some league cup action, the odd start against a Norwich or Cardiff etc and would have been brought along slowly. Moyes' football is so lacking in creativity that a player like Januzaj can cover up somewhat that ineptitude. Only for so long of course. I think Moyes had to play him because nothing else was working. It did work for a while - we beat Sunderland and Fulham away, Stoke and Arsenal at home, thrashed Leverkusen away and for a while it looked like it had the desired effect even if he didn't start all thos games - that game against Sunderland announced his arrival.

Then it all went downhill again and hasn't stopped since.

 

[Drummer]

Oh i doubt it,after what SAF said about managers not given time in the PL,he wouldn't want to look like a hypocrite.

Or maybe SAF actually believes what he says, that managers aren't given enough time to fullfill their potential in a job . . Is it that big a reach for people to grasp that the reason SAF is such a legend is that he doesn't think like the average person, he doesn't just go with populist opinions, he does things his way.

While he was manager at United, united fans loved his cavalier, feck you to everybody else attitude. Now that hes possibly digging his heels in for a manager he feels is qualified and capable of continuing success, it doesn't suit United fans who are now defaulting to "well SAF isn't always right" argument as if somehow strengthens their conflicting opinion on Moyes.

The pride and ego of the club and the fans has been badly bruised this season. The rise of Liverpool hasn't helped and feeling like the laughing stock of Europe only further drives United fans mad. They keep focusing on "sure you only have to look at how bad we are" as proof that Moyes is a categorical failure not worth supporting.

So fans are not being objective, they are being subjective on a very emotive topic. They completely ignore the values of trusting SAF and indeed the story behind the support he himself got in tough times and default to "look at how shit we look". Its a purely emotional response to demand Moyes should go, if you are quick to dismiss the wisdom of the person who is prepared to support him.

 

[hungrywing]

Oh i doubt it,after what SAF said about managers not given time in the PL,he wouldn't want to look like a hypocrite.

Just by itself that isn't really a problem since all the club has to do is spin it as mutual consent.

 

[mancan92]

I have to post this video. Just shows everything thats wrong with the gameplan, tactics and ethos of the team

 

[Mystry]

Now how about we don't have CL for a year but Moyes gets replaced by a new, more reputed manager in the summer and the players in question get offered similar financial packages to City and Chelsea (I don't think them 2 even offer exorbitant wages, they seem to spend more on fees). I suspect it won't be a straightforward choice in such a case.

Their wage bills would probably beg to differ.

I agree with your point though, a good reputable manager would help entice the better players even when facing competition from other CL clubs. Under Moyes there is no telling if he could get us back into the CL. In fact going on this season you'd question whether he could do it but give us someone with a high standing in the game and players would probably think we'd definitely get back in, especially as our squad is still pretty good.

 

[Jaapster]

Most people are saying SAF will keep him in a job, don't forget David Gill said before his appointment “We knew this day would come,” he said. “We have been preparing for it. The new manager will inherit a great squad and infrastructure off the pitch, with a great staff.”
I am pretty sure Fergie thought the same , so David Moyes only has himself to blame for the predicament we are currently in. We are not talking one of Fergies sons here ,He is loyal but not to the point of absolute failure

I can guarantee he will be bending Giggsy ear to find out what the hell is going on, I honestly believe Nicky Butt could have done a better job with the staff we had.

Shit!!!!! I have forgotten about the head of our youth academy ,Now Brian Mclair could do a Caretaker role for the fun of it !

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Depends what formation we play, if we stick to 2 up front and need 2 wingers and 2 CM's, or 3 AM's and a DM, either way the 2 would be Mata/Januzaj with the 3 adding Kagawa.

Quite simply, that leaves Ashley Young, Valencia, Lingard, Zaha and that's without cover such as Welbeck etc

I'm not arguing we necessarily have the quality (Although I believe we do), however my point is that too many people will have to leave for us to bring a decent winger IMO..

I don't think the form of Young and Valencia is forgivable enough for time. If this war chest exists someone has to be cut throat and bring in the quality and be willing to get rid of whoever hasn't performed for such prolonged periods. Valencia and young are hitting 2 years of uselessness. Nani is unreliable from a fitness perspective. If there was any way we could go into next season with Januzaj Mata zaha plus a quality new winger I would be more hopeful about the quality of our squad.

For me the wings are currently affecting our play more than any area of the pitch. We play through the wings so much yet they've created and scored about 8 goals out of the 60 or so scored this season. It's nowhere near good enough.

We have quantity but we don't need quantity we need quality. If many have to leave, that's fine. If we had a genuine top level manager other than Ferguson at the helm, it would happen instantly.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

I don't think the form of Young and Valencia is forgivable enough for time. If this war chest exists someone has to be cut throat and bring in the quality and be willing to get rid of whoever hasn't performed for such prolonged periods. Valencia and young are hitting 2 years of uselessness. Nani is unreliable from a fitness perspective. If there was any way we could go into next season with Januzaj Mata zaha plus a quality new winger I would be more hopeful about the quality of our squad.

For me the wings are currently affecting our play more than any area of the pitch. We play through the wings so much yet they've created and scored about 8 goals out of the 60 or so scored this season. It's nowhere near good enough.

We have quantity but we don't need quantity we need quality. If many have to leave, that's fine. If we had a genuine top level manager other than Ferguson at the helm, it would happen instantly.

You see, while I agree regarding most, especially Young and Valencia, my point is how likely do you see that we sell Young, Valencia and Nani at the end of the season? I view it as nigh on impossible. FWIW, I'd personally only ship out Young/Val as I think Nani is coming into his prime, we wouldn't get someone in with his talent to replace him for half of what we'd recoup on sale... but anyway..

The wings aren't affecting our play more than any area, that's crazy, anyone can see centre midfield is clearly our weak spot, the wingers haven't been their usualselves, but if Moyes tactics weren't so over reliant, it wouldn't make the issue look as big as it is.

I suppose I don't see it, Chelsea have plenty of Sub par players, but Mourinho (a top manager/ not SAF as your post indicated) didn't go through and sell all their deadwood as he realises changes have to be gradual, an overhaul of that size would be quite unsteady IMO

 

[Sarni]

You think Falcao, James Rodriguez and Moutinho singed for Monaco because there was no competition for them from CL clubs? How about Witsel and Hulk going to Russia? Do you think players are that short sighted that they won't be able to differentiate a temporary dip from permanent decline?

It could be a permanent decline if Moyes is in the job for 6 years.

 

[elisha27]

I should be screaming Moyes Out - but I have said before that he should be given at least until september/october this year. How absurd it may sound - I still think we are only 2-3 players away from being up there again, and he deserves the chance to find those players before we possibly let him go.

Oh dear, this again. Why does he exactly? What has this loser done to deserve more time and even more money?

 

[Danny1982]

I have to post this video. Just shows everything thats wrong with the gameplan, tactics and ethos of the team

Great video. Just shows you that the problem we have is not really with the quality of the players, but the tactics and the game plan..

It looks like our players are just programmed to go to the byline, and cross at the first chance they get to do so.

It also shows me that Kagawa is a pretty intelligent player, and will be a shame to lose him in the Summer.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

You see, while I agree regarding most, especially Young and Valencia, my point is how likely do you see that we sell Young, Valencia and Nani at the end of the season? I view it as nigh on impossible. FWIW, I'd personally only ship out Young/Val as I think Nani is coming into his prime, we wouldn't get someone in with his talent to replace him for half of what we'd recoup on sale... but anyway..

The wings aren't affecting our play more than any area, that's crazy, anyone can see centre midfield is clearly our weak spot, the wingers haven't been their usualselves, but if Moyes tactics weren't so over reliant, it wouldn't make the issue look as big as it is.

I suppose I don't see it, Chelsea have plenty of Sub par players, but Mourinho (a top manager/ not SAF as your post indicated) didn't go through and sell all their deadwood as he realises changes have to be gradual, an overhaul of that size would be quite unsteady IMO

To be fair, Chelsea have to be gradual now as they are taking FFP seriously. Whereas United are much more comfortable with incredible annual profits (relative to domestic clubs anyway). So if the money we can all see is genuinely set aside for new players a different manager here would possibly look to change to ensure his intended style and philosophy is possible. Moyes' style and philosophies work well with these below-par players such as Young and Valencia in theory, yet we're still losing big game after big game.

 

[Rednails]

Or maybe SAF actually believes what he says, that managers aren't given enough time to fullfill their potential in a job . . Is it that big a reach for people to grasp that the reason SAF is such a legend is that he doesn't think like the average person, he doesn't just go with populist opinions, he does things his way.

While he was manager at United, united fans loved his cavalier, feck you to everybody else attitude. Now that hes possibly digging his heels in for a manager he feels is qualified and capable of continuing success, it doesn't suit United fans who are now defaulting to "well SAF isn't always right" argument as if somehow strengthens their conflicting opinion on Moyes.

The pride and ego of the club and the fans has been badly bruised this season. The rise of Liverpool hasn't helped and feeling like the laughing stock of Europe only further drives United fans mad. They keep focusing on "sure you only have to look at how bad we are" as proof that Moyes is a categorical failure not worth supporting.

So fans are not being objective, they are being subjective on a very emotive topic. They completely ignore the values of trusting SAF and indeed the story behind the support he himself got in tough times and default to "look at how shit we look". Its a purely emotional response to demand Moyes should go, if you are quick to dismiss the wisdom of the person who is prepared to support him.

No it's the other way round. We have been subjective in giving Moyes the benefit of the doubt for 8 months, listening to his excuses week after week, watching the team go down the pan. Now the majority has come to the conclusion that he is just not up to it so we are being objective in saying the right Thing to do is cut our losses and get rid.

And this transition is nothing like when Fergie took over. He was a proven winner who had won trophies and he set about completely overhauling the team and the clubs setup. Moyes has taken over a well oiled machine, one of the biggest clubs in the world and he is ruining it. And the times are different, we are an international business now, we have a business plan and the fundamental element of it is CL football and an international fan base. We simply cannot afford the luxury of a few years in the doldrums.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Time should really be up for Moyes.

It's mouthwatering to think of how we could play with this squad. Mata, Kagawa, Rooney, Januzaj, Van Persie...

Unfortunately under Moyes we will never experience that potential. Too negative.

 

[FineYoungCasual]

Just can't get my head around this modern system of scouting with HD screens and iPads and freaking supercomputers and satellites nonsense in Odgen's article. So you're telling me Moyes has overhauled the scouting system and discovered gems like "Porto defender Eliaquim Mangala, Borussia Dortmund’s holding midfielder Ilkay Gundogan, Bayern Munich midfielder Toni Kroos and Southampton full-back Luke Shaw are the priority targets, with Paris St-Germain forward Edinson Cavani and Atlético Madrid’s Diego Costa also being watched" ? When even a punter on the street could come up with those names in 5 minutes. Mind boggling stuff.

Yeah but the footballing decisions at our club are, it emerges, made by two old men. Legends, but proper old men nonetheless.

Sir Bobby probably spent the entire summer hesitantly playing Football Manager and thinking he was actually buying real players.

Meanwhile Fergie is probably still reeling from the fact that Real Madrid signed Christian Bale for so much more money than Arsenal paid for Mehmet Ozil.

 

[Rozay]

That is only partly true.

We saw seen Costa, Willian and Mkhitaryan slip away from us last summer. Salah in January. Basically, whenever a CL club has entered the picture, we've been left behind.

The likes of Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho and Sakho, or even Mignolet, Henderson, Allen and Ilori were signed without competition from CL clubs (The likes of Borini, Assaidi, Aspas, Alberto & Toure go without saying).

Even youngsters like Sterling, Suso and Shelvey were signed under Benitez.

And looking at ex-players signed since he left, I don't think we had competition from CL clubs for Downing, Meireles, Bellamy, Adam, Doni, Carroll (lol), Poulsen (even more lol), Konchesky (LOLZ), Jones (stop it!) or J. Cole (fecks sake).

Maybe there was interest in Enrique and Coates. I don't recall there being any, but those two, Meireles and Doni were the only ones I'd even imagine CL clubs looking at of ex-players signed since we dropped out of top four.

The only 'coup' we've really managed since exiting the CL is getting Sahin on loan ahead of Arsenal. yay.

You lost out on those players becase of money, not because of a lack of CL football.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

It wasn't Moyes' fault he was selected. Why there wasn't an interview process for the biggest job in world football is beyond me. Some of the hatred for him is bizarre, I genuinely believe he's doing his best, he's working his bollocks off, he's just not the right man for the job.

 

[Dans]

Care to post some examples of this "hatred" you are reading?

 

[Rednotdead]

Yeah but the footballing decisions at our club are, it emerges, made by two old men. Legends, but proper old men nonetheless.

Sir Bobby probably spent the entire summer hesitantly playing Football Manager and thinking he was actually buying real players.

Meanwhile Fergie is probably still reeling from the fact that Real Madrid signed Christian Bale for so much more money than Arsenal paid for Mehmet Ozil.

Did he arrive for training in his bat car?

 

[gregwar]

transfer bunker? HD screens? four more years.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Care to post some examples of this "hatred" you are reading?

We had 68 points after 27 games last season. That would put us 8 clear this season. Moyes is a fecking disaster. Hate the cnut

A few posts above.

 

[::sonny::]

My hero