Moyes has to go

[Chesterlestreet]

We attack down the wings, that's the only place we actually attack and instead of replacing like for like with Kagawa for Mata and setting up with the same tactics and team, he replaced both with completely different and hugely inferior players, switched back to a 4-4-2 and expected up to carry "good form" forward?

Give me a break.

I'd rather see the set-up from the last league match than what we fielded last night too. I think most would. But it's by no means unheard of that you go to Athens (or Istanbul or wherever) in order to grind out a fair result, not in order to play your best possible football. And then kill 'em at home. Fergie used to do this all the time.

We spectacularly failed to grind out anything - but that is a different sort of problem. Going for a less than adventurous line-up in a match like that isn't all that strange.

 

[Keenst]

I laughed at the suggestion of Trap but only because I'm Irish and it would be hilarious to me to see him in charge of United. However, in a way I think he's just the type of character that we need; somebody who would command respect as soon as he walks in the room. This is why I think suggestions of getting AVB are ridiculous, if the players don't respect Moyes then they're hardly going to listen to AVB when the going gets tough.

 

[togg]

I'm not sure why yesterday in particular did much to sway the public opinion? Even proven pro-Moyes supporters like @Pogue Mahone have seemingly started to wander over to the "sack him"-camp, but why? It was just another poor result, another uninspiring performance, in a season of those. That's our level and there's been hardly anything to suggest Moyes will ever learn before last night.

So why did people change their opinions because of one first leg defeat in a competition we'll never win either way? What was different with yesterday? Genuine question, not wumming.

My point is I guess is that while I'm starting to be convinced that Moyes will never be a United level manager, I'm slightly surprised that yesterday was the tipping point for so many, seemingly.

I think we have been used to having couple of matches where we seem to go one or two of steps forwards only for the next match see us go three steps backwards. We're kind of used to it, although not happy about it and it is frustrating. I think last night...after the last two games and espescially Palace where, ok, we weren't scintillating, but certainly it was an improvement....it seemed we went bleeding 5 or 6 steps back. AS press, pundits, fans alike have mentioned..it really was an abysmal awful passionless performance, so against everything United has been in the past as to probably shock people into thinking....bloody hell, Moyes really hasn't got the ability for manager united after all


all a bit long winded..but hope you get my drift...

 

[LR7]

I'm not sure why yesterday in particular did much to sway the public opinion? Even proven pro-Moyes supporters like @Pogue Mahone have seemingly started to wander over to the "sack him"-camp, but why? It was just another poor result, another uninspiring performance, in a season of those. That's our level and there's been hardly anything to suggest Moyes will ever learn before last night.

So why did people change their opinions because of one first leg defeat in a competition we'll never win either way? What was different with yesterday? Genuine question, not wumming.

My point is I guess is that while I'm starting to be convinced that Moyes will never be a United level manager, I'm slightly surprised that yesterday was the tipping point for so many, seemingly.

I had my turning point at the Fulham game. The most abject performance I've witnessed at OT. I guess everyone just has different levels of tolerance and different games are getting people to their tipping points at different times. Yesterday did seem to irk even the most ardent Moyes supporters though.

 

[Harold_Giles]

If we get a new manager in the summer, it must be quite a relief to be taking over from David Moyes and not Sir Alex Ferguson.

Should take the pressure off a bit.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

I hear ya - it's not easy being upbeat at the moment. But let's say certain players simply aren't pulling their weight, not a proper go-slow but a case of not being behind the man at all - I don't even want to speculate as to who the main culprits would be, but let's assume these are senior players on whom Moyes still relies, players that he can't just bench on principle for lack of alternatives, not least because it's not a matter of open mutiny.

Now, if he can get rid of these players come the end of the season - and get in some proper top class players, well...I think he deserves a chance. I think many severely underestimate how bloody difficult his job actually is. Turning things around will be doubly difficult if he has to rely on players who don't give 100% for him on the pitch.

It's still unclear to me what is what here. He isn't a terrible manager. We know this already. Is he, however, too small time to be a Manchester United manager - and is that the core of the problem? Perhaps. But this hasn't been proven yet as far as I'm concerned. The holes in our current squad aren't illusions. It's not an awful squad (and as far as I know there is no "brigade" who claim this) but it's definitely a flawed one. It needs some sorting out regardless of Moyes.

And losing certain "senior" players isn't proof that he's incompetent. Getting rid of such players can be vital for anyone who takes over a team managed by the same genius for 27 years.

Excuses excuses excuses, it used to be poor Moyes doesnt have Carrick and RVP that's why he isnt getting results, now that he is just as shit with those players its the players that arent giving their 100%, it doesnt look like that to me when we score, they all go mad happy fist in the air, and the gaping hole in our midfield, we played against a team that has Maniatis and Dominguez in midfield and made us look like fools,do you realise how shit that Greek team is? we couldnt create a single chance against them. Any other team on the planet would have fired Moyes by now, the "United way" is becoming extremely annoying right now.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I had my turning point at the Fulham game. The most abject performance I've witnessed at OT. I guess everyone just has different levels of tolerance and different games are getting people to their tipping points at different times. Yesterday did seem to irk even the most ardent Moyes supporters though.

I already said it was the one false dawn too many that got to me but, thinking about it, our serene progress through the CL group stages was a bit of a comfort through our woeful league campaign. Now it turns out we're just as shite in Europe it all gets that bit harder to take.

 

[Gannicus]

I've just read the sanctimonious sermon by van der Gouw. You have to be a blind twat to see that this manager hasn't got what it takes to manage a club with ambitions to win massive trophies.

Let's go over some basic facts, shall we?

Fergie had won trophies before he ever stepped foot on the grounds of OT. He humbled Real Madrid. He inherited a midtable club with a serious culture problem.

Moyes was never more than an accomplished midtable manager. He never lifted a trophy and he never beat a top four club.

What we saw from Day One when Moyes took the job at United was indecision and a commitment to discredited tactics. The stupid bids for Fabregas and the panic buy of Fellaini and the rest is history. Now this.

 

[bishblaize]

If we get a new manager in the summer, it must be quite a relief to be taking over from David Moyes and not Sir Alex Ferguson.

Should take the pressure off a bit.

I've wondered about this prospect myself, albeit not quite so pithily as you put it.

it may be that the person who takes over from SAF does the leg work but ends up leaving it to someone else to bring back success. If we ignore McGuiness for a moment (sorry Wilf, you don't count) then perhaps Moyes will play the Frank O'Farrell role. The manager remembered for breaking apart the successful team but then stepping aside to allow the next good/great (argue that point somewhere else) manager we had (Tommy Doc) to start afresh without the baggage.

Course Tommy D got us relegated before we came back from the ashes...

 

[Robbie Boy]

What a bunch of spoilt, dribbling, glory hunting spastics you are. 3 years it took for Fergie to come good, you haven't even given Moyes a season and you're throwing your toys out of the pram. Most of you are armchair fans who have never been to a match, and sadly the Caf has in recent times become more and more the domain of muppets who'd rather we became a City style mercenary dream team with a soul-less big name manager at the top who would walk after 2 seasons.

I'm genuinely sick of RedCafe, the attitudes of those at the games are polls apart from the stagnant horseshit I read in here - and I can say that firsthand. United has a fantastic group of domestic supporters, but globally a bunch of angry glory demanding know-nothings who think throwing a glamorous big name manager at the club will solve the problem.

...and to those of you who level the term 'top.red' at me; why not go to an actual game and gauge the reaction from fans there, your constant anti Moyes droning will be in the minority. While you're at it, why not check out a game being played by your local team: I'm sure Delhi FC, LA Galaxy and Molde can all play some entertaining football.

Goodbye Caf. It was sound here until SAF left.

Top of the top-reds.

 

[Rozay]

17 Van Der Gouw's post is definitely a fecking idiot. Nothing riles me more than people who have a go at others for wanting 'big names'. What the feck is a 'big name' anyway? Nobody starts off with a big name, they invariably get one over time by being good at either playing or managing. Nobody gives a feck about a name, they just want the person to be good at what they do.

Absolutely NOTHING indicates that Moyes is good at managing Manchester United, hence people wanting somebody who will be. You don't need to sit in the fecking Stretty to see that. Was Januzaj a big name? We'd all take him over Young/Valencia.

 

[LR7]

Under Fergie we've been consistently defensive away from home, away goals or no away goals.

Someone made a good point about the team that lined up at the Bernabèu last season. Front 4 of RvP, Rooney, Welbeck and Kagawa. Attacking. We went to win that game, and probably should have given a the chances RvP missed. And that was against a team with more attacking prowess than Olympiakos. Yes even under Fergie these European away ties weren't always swashbuckling but I felt he always went with a team we could win with.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Good riddance. That has to be one of the most sanctimonious, arrogant splurges of bile I've had the misfortune to read in a while. Nobody informed me that I lost my right to an opinion the moment I moved too far away to be a regular match goer. Luckily, I still have the likes of you to show me how to be a proper fan.

Why is everyone commenting? He's dumped us. Hasn't he? Or is he just teasing us?

 

[MoskvaRed]

I just picked out the 2 silliest name from the list - there are plenty of silly names on the list.

And yeah fair enough, I don't really mean everyone in the thread, just everyone recently posting 'oh yeah harry rednapp would be a great appointment...' because, no, he wouldn't be

Fair enough. And I agree that it's important we don't rush the next appointment as we can survive one bad one but two could make things a bit hairy - so no 'Arry, Laudrup etc. As for Moyes, by now I am judging him on his United performance. But, even looking back to Everton, I am not convinced. When he first broke through in the middle of the last decade, after impressive work at Preston, I thought here is our next manager. But then it all reached a plateau - obviously not in terms of winning the league as that would be impossible due to financial constraints, but in terms of Everton's style of play and their record in cups (I mentioned the FA Cup defeats earlier, but I could also mention that, during that period, both Walter Smith and Roy Hodgson took clubs with not much money to UEFA cup finals). If Moyes was truly destined for greatness, surely he could have found a way to win one trophy by the age of 50? So I am left with the conclusion that we appointed a very solid, top-half of the league manager but one without the capacity or imagination to make the final step. It also doesn't help his cause that we have seen various smaller clubs have relative success without resorting to playing the percentages/ stick the big man upfront - Southampton, Swansea etc.

 

[Pexbo]

Under Fergie we've been consistently defensive away from home, away goals or no away goals.

Complete myth.


Away to Real Madrid last year we started with:

DDG

Rafael - Evans - Ferdinand - Evra

Jones - Carrick

Welbeck - Rooney - Kagawa

Van Persie
​

That's a significantly more attacking side than Moyes played against Olympiacos last night, away to Real Madrid.


Go back a couple of seasons and we play Shalke away:

VDS

Fabio - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra

Carrick
Valencia ------ Giggs Park
Rooney - -----
--------Hernandez
​

Again, hardly defensive. As close to that team last night as I could find but Valencia back then was vastly more attacking and Giggs played in an AM role compared to Cleverley's wishywashy midfield role.

 

[bishblaize]

Fergie had won trophies before he ever stepped foot on the grounds of OT. He humbled Real Madrid. He inherited a midtable club with a serious culture problem.

Good point. Fergie's accomplishments at Aberdeen bear comparison to those at Old Trafford, given the relative sizes of the two clubs. He vastly overachieved in both roles.

 

[Mauzindark]

Trappafeckintoni

Not sure I get the joke.. What's so funny about Giovanni ? Yes he's a fossil but his club record is marvellous. He's managed legendary clubs like Juventus, Internazionale and Bayern munich winning 7 Serie A, 1 European Cup, 2 UEFA Cup, multiple Copa Italia, a Bundesliga title and much much more. By Moyes' ripe age of 50 he'd managed the likes of Michel Platini, Paolo Rossi, Gaetano Scirea, Claudio Gentile, Lothar Matthaus, Andreas Brehme, Giuseppe Bergomi, Jurgen Klinsmann.

Can DM boast even a tenth of those achievements ?

 

[MDFC Manager]

It's not about sentimentality, it's about realizing they are not football people and leaving that to others. Them keeping out of Gill and Fergie's way in recent years was our greatest strength. Now it could be our biggest downfall.

Incredibly, the Glazers are now our biggest hope because Fergie would probably back Moyes all the way to the conference.

Erm, see this:

21% hit on value of the club since Moyes took charge. Equates to roughly $600m.

And people actually think the glazers will sit back??? Don't think so.

With that kind of value wipeout, and the Glazers being the hard nosed businessmen they are, they will sack Moyes. Even if it means bypassing Fergie.

 

[grahamo]

I thought I would have calmed down a bit by now after the disaster that was last night.....No I'm still angry and totally bemused. Moyes needs to go. Before he goes though, he needs to sack about 6 of the starting 11 from last night, and I mean SACK, not drop them, They don't deserve to wear that shirt ever again

 

[Slevs]

Why is he still here?

 

[Shimo]

Stop comparing Moyes to Fergie. The difference is Fergie believed in the team and the team believed in what themselves because of Fergie. They didn't play out of fear but, knowing they had the ability to win because of who they are. Right now Moyes has the team playing with complete fear, the players have no confidence in being able to go forward and win. They each take the safest possible way which actually leads to most unsafe way for the team.

We may have played some boring football under Fergie but, the team believed. We play crap football under Moyes because he doesn't believe.

 

[LonelyFire]

Erm, see this:


With that kind of value wipeout, and the Glazers being the hard nosed businessmen they are, they will sack Moyes. Even if it means bypassing Fergie.

Spot on.

Ps. Seems my maths may be slightly off. The value drop is accurate, however, more like 9-11% drop in value.

 

[Slevs]

What a bunch of spoilt, dribbling, glory hunting spastics you are. 3 years it took for Fergie to come good, you haven't even given Moyes a season and you're throwing your toys out of the pram. Most of you are armchair fans who have never been to a match, and sadly the Caf has in recent times become more and more the domain of muppets who'd rather we became a City style mercenary dream team with a soul-less big name manager at the top who would walk after 2 seasons.

I'm genuinely sick of RedCafe, the attitudes of those at the games are polls apart from the stagnant horseshit I read in here - and I can say that firsthand. United has a fantastic group of domestic supporters, but globally a bunch of angry glory demanding know-nothings who think throwing a glamorous big name manager at the club will solve the problem.

...and to those of you who level the term 'top.red' at me; why not go to an actual game and gauge the reaction from fans there, your constant anti Moyes droning will be in the minority. While you're at it, why not check out a game being played by your local team: I'm sure Delhi FC, LA Galaxy and Molde can all play some entertaining football.

Goodbye Caf. It was sound here until SAF left.

Top red award winner 2014.

 

[Getsme]

Why is he still here?

Get the thought out of your head that he's going to leave, it's not going to happen. He's here to stay, he's going to get money to spend and he will more than likely feck that up to.
He still has plenty of excuses to use yet.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Under Fergie we've been consistently defensive away from home, away goals or no away goals.

I see what you're saying. However, setting up defensively makes no sense when we've been consistently awful defensively. This negative energy seems to be channeling into the players performance where they have no fecking clue what they ought to be doing.

 

[johnmufc]

Under Fergie we've been consistently defensive away from home, away goals or no away goals.

Perhaps, but don't you dare equate defensiveness with ineffectiveness or whatever Moyes wishes to call that pathetic excuse of a performance yesterday.

Ferguson in his latter years, barring the one aberration of the 2011/2012 season, had mastered away matches in Champions League football. We hold the astonishing record of 16 straight away games without defeat in the Champions League, beginning with a win at Sporting in 2007, and ending with a defeat at Bayern in 2010.

Even if we played a cautious game away from home under Ferguson, it was balanced and ready to pounce on the counter, and built upon an impenetrable defence. What Moyes showed last night was the most disgusting, abject, clueless, shambolic, catastrophic excuse of a performance I think we've ever witnessed in Europe. We've been outclassed by great sides before, but never have we been humiliated like that against a modest team, without even posing the remotest of threats to the opposition.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Complete myth.


Away to Real Madrid last year we started with:

DDG

Rafael - Evans - Ferdinand - Evra

Jones - Carrick

Welbeck - Rooney - Kagawa

Van Persie

That's a significantly more attacking side than Moyes played against Olympiacos last night, away to Real Madrid.


Go back a couple of seasons and we play Shalke away:

VDS

Fabio - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra

Carrick
Valencia ------ Giggs Park
Rooney - -----
--------Hernandez

Again, hardly defensive. As close to that team last night as I could find but Valencia back then was vastly more attacking and Giggs played in an AM role compared to Cleverley's wishywashy midfield role.

Complete myth, my hole. Feck all difference, in terms of personnel between last night and those teams.

Young is arguably more attacking than Park and Cleverley more attacking than Jones. Giggs probably more attacking than Cleverley but the Cleverley-Fellaini decision was hardly outrageous and Giggs is 40 years old.

Not to mention that playing two strikers is always a more attacking line-up than just one up top.

Anyone who thinks a defensive team selection was the main factor in an abject display is completely missing the point IMO.

 

[kouroux]

During the revolt against the French manager is one example.

Those were special stupid circumstances, a case were everybody supported Anelka, at club level he's always been loyal and tried his best under any manager.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Perhaps, but don't you dare equate defensiveness with ineffectiveness or whatever Moyes wishes to call that pathetic excuse of a performance yesterday.

Ferguson in his latter years, barring the one aberration of the 2011/2012 season, had mastered away matches in Champions League football. We hold the astonishing record of 16 straight away games without defeat in the Champions League, beginning with a win at Sporting in 2007, and ending with a defeat at Bayern in 2010.

Even if we played a cautious game away from home under Ferguson, it was balanced and ready to pounce on the counter, and built upon an impenetrable defence. What Moyes showed last night was the most disgusting, abject, clueless, shambolic, catastrophic excuse of a performance I think we've ever witnessed in Europe. We've been outclassed by great sides before, but never have we been humiliated like that against a modest team, without even posing the remotest of threats to the opposition.

I'm not. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[Will Absolute]

He is not going to do untold damage ffs. Get a fecking grip.

I was on the fence before, but I think the drama queens are pushing me back towards the #supportmoyes camp

It's not a camp anymore - more of a tent - a pup tent.

 

[Dominos]

This has been a running myth all season. We're just playing shit, not defensively.

 

[Slevs]

******* award winner 2014.

tp red is asterixed out?

Get the thought out of your head that he's going to leave, it's not going to happen. He's here to stay, he's going to get money to spend and he will more than likely feck that up to.
He still has plenty of excuses to use yet.

Why? It's one step forward and 3 steps back with him every single time. He just doesn't learn from his mistakes.

 

[Rory 7]

Under Fergie we've been consistently defensive away from home, away goals or no away goals.

We've been more defensive away in Europe under Fergie relative to how we set up away in England. Yes.

Problem is under Moyes, we are set up away in England and Europe identically - to 'nick a goal'. That's why he plays pace in Young and Valencia constantly instead of a more adventurous possession based game that Ferguson's teams always played. Moyes plays the percentages, that's the problem.

And that kind of out moded thinking is compounded at home where teams are completely wide to Moyes' tactics. That's why West Brom, Newcastle, Sunderland,
Southampton, Fulham, Swansea, Everton and Chelsea have all taken something at Old Trafford. Jesus when you list it out the case for sacking him immediately is rock solid!

 

[SAred]

With the Liverpool game coming up, if we lose that I have a feeling he may lose the home crowd. I was one for giving him time but he has taken a Rolls Royce and turned it into a misfiring Lada.The team has had it's problems and I doubt even with Sir Alex at the helm we would win anything this year but to be where we are in February Moyes need's to take most of the blame. Nice guy maybe but looking that he is way out of his league. I hope he turns it around but it is not looking very promising.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It wasn't the defensive selection that was the reason for our defeat yesterday. It was a mediocre manager who's getting squat out of a very good squad, and it's happened all season. Last night was no big deal. Just the usual for us under Moyes.

 

[Slevs]

With the Liverpool game coming up, if we lose that I have a feeling he may lose the home crowd. I was one for giving him time but he has taken a Rolls Royce and turned it into a misfiring Lada.The team has had it's problems and I doubt even with Sir Alex at the helm we would win anything this year but to be where we are in February Moyes need's to take most of the blame. Nice guy maybe but looking that he is way out of his league. I hope he turns it around but it is not looking very promising.

It's like you've finally had enough cash saved up to buy yourself a fancy car, but you don't have the cash needed for the maintenance.

One step forward, 3 steps back, same old David Moyes.

 

[Rory 7]

It wasn't the defensive selection that was the reason for our defeat yesterday. It was a mediocre manager who's getting squat out of a very good squad, and it's happened all season. Last night was no big deal. Just the usual for us under Moyes.

Defensive is probably the wrong word. It was a negative selection designed to defend and play on the break. His selection was not at all progressive in the sense of building on the Palace game and playing possession based football. That smacks of a manager with no confidence that is translating itself onto the team!

 

[LR7]

Complete myth, my hole. Feck all difference, in terms of personnel between last night and those teams.

Young is arguably more attacking than Park and Cleverley more attacking than Jones. Giggs probably more attacking than Cleverley but the Cleverley-Fellaini decision was hardly outrageous and Giggs is 40 years old.

Not to mention that playing two strikers is always a more attacking line-up than just one up top.

Anyone who thinks a defensive team selection was the main factor in an abject display is completely missing the point IMO.

The team selection just sums up Moyes' mentality. Safety first. Ask anyone who our two least threatening attacking players are and most will name Young and Valencia. There's no way that team yesterday was equivalent to the one that we lined up with at the Bernabèu last season.

 

[bishblaize]

He is not going to do untold damage ffs. Get a fecking grip.

I was on the fence before, but I think the drama queens are pushing me back towards the #supportmoyes camp

Untold damage is probably over-egging it.

However its true that Moyes is in a minority amongst top European Managers (in the sense of those managing top European teams) with the way he has chosen to play his football this season, with its emphasis on wingers and just two central midfielders. Regardless of specific formations, most other top teams play with a focus on possession and controlling central areas - whether thats as Bayern and Barca do, or whether in the more aggressive approach of Atletico Madrid. (The only real team playing differently to this are Dortmund, who have a system all of their own.)

My worry is that if he builds a team in this image of 4-4-2 with two wide wingers, then fails again and has to leave, we face the prospect of a second rebuild in order to get in the players most other managers would want.

On the other hand if a coach like Van Gaal (who I dont want at United, but is an example of a typical modern European coach) spent that money then most other coaches would be able to utilise those players in any system they chose.

 

[Rory 7]

The team selection just sums up Moyes' mentality. Safety first. Ask anyone who our two least threatening attacking players are and most will name Young and Valencia. There's no way that team yesterday was equivalent to the one that we lined up with at the Bernabèu last season.

Precisely and I think that is what has the ire of most fans. The negativity of Moyes' approach is just not the Manchester United way. If performances were braver (and the manager is responsible for that) fans would be much more forgiving. He has to go.