That's a good point actually.
I still think Bayern were the better side in both games though, which I'd have never expected. I'd have thought if Bayern were to get through it would have to be a flukey/grafting type result similar to Chelsea's.
Mourinho | New old Chelsea manager
- Thread starter Suedesi
- Start date
That's a good point actually.
I still think Bayern were the better side in both games though, which I'd have never expected. I'd have thought if Bayern were to get through it would have to be a flukey/grafting type result similar to Chelsea's.
Mourinho's record at Penalty shootouts are pretty poor isn't it? Makes me wonder does he not train his team to prepare for penalties before hand?
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Off the back of my head, he had lost to us, Liverpool and Bayern in shootout. Did he win any shootout in his managerial career?
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Off the back of my head, he had lost to us, Liverpool and Bayern in shootout. Did he win any shootout in his managerial career?
On who?
EDIT: My understanding has it he's signed Khedira, Sahin, Coentrao and ....
He's spent that
His transfers in are:
Callejon, Varane, Coentrao, Di Maria, Altintop, Carvalho, Sahin, Ozil and Kheidera.
Callejon 5 million
Varane 10 million
Coentrao 30 million
Di Maria 30 million
Altintop free
Carvalho 8 million
Sahin 10 million
Ozil 15 million
Kheidera 13 million
Edit, Real Madrid also have the 2nd largest wage budget in world sport:
1 Barcelona La Liga $7,910,737 $152,130
2 Real Madrid La Liga $7,356,632 $141,474
3 New York Yankees MLB $6,756,301 $129,929
4 Los Angeles Lakers NBA $6,540,690 $125,782
5 Orlando Magic NBA $6,367,114 $122,445
So if Mourinho has spent 60 million a year with the second top wage budget in the world, how the feck has he been left with an average squad?
Madrid don't have an average squad. They have good depth, but their defence isn't great.
They've spent a similar amount to us in the last couple of seasons.
They've spent a similar amount to us in the last couple of seasons.
Really? I wouldn't say we spent anywhere near them. On our wages or on our transfers.
Our signings in the past 2 years have been (in approx. Euros):
Young €20m
De Gea €25m
Jones €20m
Smalling €15m
Hernandez €8m
Bebe €8m
Lindegaard €5m
Pretty similar to Mourinho's total outlay. Granted, our wage bill is lower.
There's a 24 million pound difference there. I think that is rather substantial to be honest. I forgot about Adabayor as well, wonder how much he cost.
I didn't realise Barca's wage bill was higher than Madrid's still, particularly with players like Kaka on the books. Surpassing Barca domestically without even outspending them on wages is a fantastic achievement.
Twigg is digging here.
No, it's a €20m difference based on your numbers for two years spending. That's about £8m per year, or maybe one cheap player.
Mourinho has hardly spent lavishly since he went to Madrid. Looking through his list of transfers, they mostly seem to be quite good value, with a couple of cracking purchases in there.
Does this mean that whenever he wins the league with the highest wage budget, it's quite an average achievement?
Both Real and Barcelona dominate the rest of the world at spending on transfers and wages. United with their biggest transfer outlay in years still fall behind Real Madrid who apparently haven't spent "lavishly". I'm absolutely ecstatic Jose got out thought in the CL, and it was hilarious how bitter he was about it.
£20 odd million is nothing in modern big club football terms. It's an Ashley Young. Plus we're a club supposedly hamstrung financially. With a £101m outlay in the same time!
Mike wins the thread.
Mike wins the thread.
I think Madrid have a better squad than City but agree that there's not a lot between those two and Barca. I think Madrid comfortably has the best forward line in the world, a great first XI and enough depth which for whatever reason just doesn't play all that much - the reigning Bundesliga player of the year only making 6 appearances. They're comfortable enough to send Gago, Canales, Drenthe and Pedro León all out on loan and as always have a great cantera which they steadfastly refuse to use.
I don't see how Mourinho can be criticised for reaching the last 4 in the CL (nor how anyone can criticise him for his conduct after the game), even if I do think the league win has been over-exaggerated as a personal achievement.
And as has been mentioned with the nod to wages, transfer fees aren't a great way to compare investment by teams. Madrid managed to get the likes of Özil and Sahin for the fees they did, precisely because they could blow all competition out of the water in terms of contract offers.
I don't see how Mourinho can be criticised for reaching the last 4 in the CL (nor how anyone can criticise him for his conduct after the game), even if I do think the league win has been over-exaggerated as a personal achievement.
And as has been mentioned with the nod to wages, transfer fees aren't a great way to compare investment by teams. Madrid managed to get the likes of Özil and Sahin for the fees they did, precisely because they could blow all competition out of the water in terms of contract offers.
What the feck are you on?
Yes, one would expect the manager with the biggest budget to win the League in normal circumstances.
Don't see how he got out thought, and he seemed quite gracious by his standards. Certainly more gracious than Ferguson in 2010 when we got done by Bayern. I believe our transfer outlay last summer was bigger than their's anyway, I'm not sure what you're so angry about.
Why take only two years? Mourinho walked into a team boasting Ronaldo and Kaka, had several EC/WC winners Casillas, Alonso, Ramos, Arbeloa etc and the likes of Benzema, Higuain, Marcelo etc. You could argue he didn't need a major overhaul, just a few minor tweaks. True he got Ozil, who's been an unmitigated success, but De Maria? Coentrao? Sahin? Pretty poor purchases. Not bad players per se, but they've no impact at Madrid. Sahin was the fulcrum of a title winning Dortmund, he's played no part at Madrid.
Forget the market, let's talk about how Real play. Mourinho still, hasn't given Real a clear philosophy. Against big teams, they invariably resort to counter attack football, whereas with their talent at disposal they should impose themselves on other teams.
Fact of the matter they got played off the park in Bernabeu by Munich. Real had less possession, completed less passes, had less shots on goal. At home. They were abysmal in Munich. Got lucky with a counter attack, and every one forgot how poor they were in the second half. They got outplayed both games. They got beat by the first decent team they met in Europe (and no Ajax, Dinamo Zagreb, Lyon, CSKA and Apoel are not big teams).
The difference in, it's our largest transfer window for years, probably our second biggest spending in a decade. Whereas for Madrid, they've still spent an awful lot, increased their massive wage bill, and already had spent more than any other club in the decade before.
In that case, Mourinho has never really done anything out of the ordinary in the leagues. I'd agree with that.
Comparing apples to oranges. We're going through a transition having had to replace several key players that have retired VDS, Scholes, Gazza, etc.
Real's purchases fall into a different category. Explain Sahin to me pls. Or Coentrao, Varane, de Maria, Altintop etc.
Conditioned by VDS, Neville, Scholes retiring.
And they lost Robben, Van der Vaart, Raul, van Nistelrooy etc. Both teams were in transition.
Explain to me Bebe.
Di Maria is a very good player.
Individually his League success haven't been extraordinary, but it's pretty extraordinary to do it in 6 out of 7 seasons, I don't know any other manager who have done that. It looks all but certain that he's going to surpass Barcelona this season in the League as well with a lower wage budget, that's pretty extraordinary. His record in the Champions League is pretty excellent as well, 2 Finals, 6 Semi Finals, and 8 Last 16 appearances in 8 attempts.
Because we were discussing Mourinho's spending at Madrid.
Madrid deservedly beat Barca away to all but clinch the title only last week.
They got beaten by a good Munich team. United, we got beaten by... oh, yeah.
That's not what you said though. You said Mourinho should've done better cos he spent £120m. Now you're changing the goal posts, entirely to make a (diminishing) point about Mourinho fecking up. Madrid have always spent far more than us. They've also failed to get beyond the 2nd round for about 6 years, much to everyone's amusement. In Mourinhos 2 years, and with an investment not much bigger than ours (he can hardly be held accountable for Real's previous) they've overhauled a seemingly uncatchable Barca in the League and got within a penalty shoot out of the CL final. So, yeah, I'm not really sure what your point is anymore.
I'm putting it out there, this Bayern team is better than Chelseas.
It seems bizarre we're debating whether Mourinho has been successful at Madrid. He walked into a club with big problems in the dressing room, who were in the shadow of one of the greatest club sides ever. Within two years, he's overhauled Barca. He even beat them to win the Copa del Rey in his first season. He got to the semi-finals of the Champions League and lost out on penalties to a very good Bayern side.
Seems pretty fecking decent to me.
Seems pretty fecking decent to me.
They didn't lose those players, they let go Robben, Sneijder, Van Der Vaart, Raul, van Nistelrooy usually for ridiculously low prices to get new shining toys. Some of those toys (Gago, Canales, Pedro Leon, Drenthe) are loaned out for yet more new toys.
Bebe was a punt. If anyone other than SAF had sanctioned that purchase, there would be some heads rolling.
You've changed the goalposts by claiming this Madrid squad is average. This is where this debate come from. You claimed Mourinho's Madrid squad he's had for two full years now is average.
We are clearly not an average side. We've got a great squad, I've never claimed we haven't.
But it's interesting after having the second highest wage bill in any sports club in the world, as well as spending more than us, he's got an average squad apparently.
Yeah but he's a cnut mike.
And we all know that no cnut has ever been a fantastic football manager.
Not average average, average for a top side average. And by squad i mean bench players. They have a fantastic forward starting XI. Hence why (IMO) he didn't rotate much during an important spate of big games.
Or their cycle ended. No team lasts forever, and Barca lost the title by blowing off points at minnows.
Barca still beat Real 3 times this season, and lost once. Law of averages dictates they can't go winning forever.
As for the CL, RM got beaten by the first decent team they met. I'm sorry but CSKA, Apoel in the knockouts was beyond lucky.
I'm also going to give him a lot of credit for getting the best out of Benzema, who now looks a proper player, but was lost before Mourinho arrived.
To be fair I don't think many people are claiming he's not. But the aggression towards him, and the valedictorian attitude when he loses is quite unique amongst managers. Except, ironically, perhaps ours from ABUs.
He's the 21st century Clough. Except without punching his own players.
Exactly my point, these people would love him if he was with us, I see no way in which a neutral would see him as a bigger cnut than either Fergie or Clough.
So yeah, let's never have a cnut in charge at United. Only bad can come of it.
Meh, Mourinho's come in, got a worse point record than the guy before him, spent a lot of money, has an "average squad" (I disagree on that bit) and has acted like a complete cnut while he was there.
I don't think a La Liga is a massive win for Mourinho here. He took over a team with 96 points, top of the fair play league and who'd spent hundreds of millions.
A year later he spent a lot more, got 4 less points, had dropped the team down the fair play table and scored less goals. AKA won less games, performed more cynically and scored less
This year admittedly he's on course to get as many points as the guy who was in charge before him. But that's after going out in the Copa Del Rey to Barce, going out in the CL to a team who many expected him to beat and once again outspending most of Europe.
I don't like the man. Never will. Then again I don't like Barce either so I'm happy he's beaten them in La Liga.
I don't think a La Liga is a massive win for Mourinho here. He took over a team with 96 points, top of the fair play league and who'd spent hundreds of millions.
A year later he spent a lot more, got 4 less points, had dropped the team down the fair play table and scored less goals. AKA won less games, performed more cynically and scored less
This year admittedly he's on course to get as many points as the guy who was in charge before him. But that's after going out in the Copa Del Rey to Barce, going out in the CL to a team who many expected him to beat and once again outspending most of Europe.
I don't like the man. Never will. Then again I don't like Barce either so I'm happy he's beaten them in La Liga.
Quite clear he's going to provoke a reaction, because he always makes it about himself. He wants to be the center of attention, invites the media glare, plays theater in front of the cameras.... of course people are going to have a reaction.
Pretty sure the Bayern coach outwitted him, but I guarantee you he's getting less plaudits and column inches than Jose.