Morgan Schneiderlin | BBC: Morgan Schneiderlin is currently having a medical at Manchester United.

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JPRouve said:
Because we never are in a defensive position or Schneiderlin can't pass the ball around?
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JPRouve said:
Because we never are in a defensive position or Schneiderlin can't pass the ball around?
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Neither. The point I am trying to make is that Schneiderlin's standout qualities, namely interceptions and tackles, are/will not be required as much by our play as Southampton. Therefore, his strengths will not come to the fore; ergo, he will not be as effective for us as he is for Southampton.

Not saying when called upon, he will not be able to intercept and tackle very well.
 
RedChip said:
Neither. The point I am trying to make is that Schneiderlin's standout qualities, namely interceptions and tackles, are/will not be required as much by our play as Southampton. Therefore, his strengths will not come to the fore; ergo, he will not be as effective for us as he is for Southampton.

Not saying when called upon, he will not be able to intercept and tackle very well.
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His qualities are one of the base of possession football, the creative players are freer because they have someone who can retake the possession rapidly.
 
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JPRouve said:
His qualities are the base of possession football, the creative players are freer because they have someone who can retake the possession rapidly.
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And that is one of the main points, not only he is better at screening the back 4, but he will free up Herrera and Gundogan in the midfield to be more creative. We could do with a proper CDM IMO.
 
so how will the ball be passed from the back then? assuming there's no Hummels or the likes
 
RedChip said:
Neither. The point I am trying to make is that Schneiderlin's standout qualities, namely interceptions and tackles, are/will not be required as much by our play as Southampton. Therefore, his strengths will not come to the fore; ergo, he will not be as effective for us as he is for Southampton.

Not saying when called upon, he will not be able to intercept and tackle very well.
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The thing is not whether we can use his skillset all game long but how we use his skills in relation to other players in our team. Where we were unable to play Di Maria and Herrera together now we will be able to do so and that for me would be a positive development. Schneiderlin is the type of player that will offer us insurance in this regard and allow us to play our most creative players with the necessary hunting license. The only worry in a Schneiderlin - Herrera - Di Maria combo is the lack of a true puppet master to afford us control, maybe that's why we are being linked with Gundogun too!
 
darioterios said:
so how will the ball be passed from the back then? assuming there's no Hummels or the likes
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The same way, it is done since the invention of football, Schneiderlin can pass the ball.

Edit: Would you ask the same question, if it was Javi Martinez who isn't as good technically?
 
itso 7 said:
You would think we are signing Cheik Tiote by the way people are looking at this signing.
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I don't want this to go over the top, but can he consistently pass between the lines? It's the thing that only Carrick can do in the team, but an absolutely vital attribute for a deep playmaker
 
darioterios said:
I don't want this to go over the top, but can he consistently pass between the lines? It's the thing that only Carrick can do in the team, but an absolutely vital attribute for a deep playmaker
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He isn't a deep playmaker.
 
darioterios said:
I don't want this to go over the top, but can he consistently pass between the lines? It's the thing that only Carrick can do in the team, but an absolutely vital attribute for a deep playmaker
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Hes not a playmaker, we still need to buy one of those. Like Gundogan
 
darioterios said:
I don't want this to go over the top, but can he consistently pass between the lines? It's the thing that only Carrick can do in the team, but an absolutely vital attribute for a deep playmaker
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He's not a Playmaker in that sense, doesn't sit back and spray passes around and through the lines like Carrick does. However he can still pass the ball pretty well and is better at bringing the ball from deep with dribbles and 1-2's than Carrick is, so can get the ball to our more advanced Playmakers to do the creative stuff. As others have said this could be Gundogan if we keep pursuing that, or could be Herrera, Mata, Di Maria etc.

Matic, Fernandinho and Coquelin aren't exactly World Class passers and yet their teams somehow still manage to play well with them in the Deep midfield role as they have Players like Fabregas, Silva and Cazorla in front of them to get the ball to.
 
RedChip said:
Someone made the point above, which these stats ignore but is highly relevant, that because we have so much of the ball than Saints, Schneiderlin must as a result be called upon to intercept more and tackle more than Carrick. Overall, then, we should expect Schneiderlin to have better interception and tackle stats because both are more important requirements for his team than Carrick. It does is not necessarily mean he is a better DM as a result.
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Carrick never reached these stats seasons back where we certainly didn't play much possession football, Schneiderlin is no doubt better and stronger defensively and would add the needed balance to line-up more attacking players in front of him, without need of Rooney or Fellaini playing in midfield.. this is no judging by stats but by common sense, when people try to argument without stats than it's numbers which are demanded when you show the stats to support your argument then it means almost nothing.

And take in note this: Carrick in his soon 34 is nowhere near mobile to play in such tempo like Schneiderlin, it is due to him and some other player like Fellaini, Rooney, RVP, etc we play such rather slowish possession football, Van Gaal never played this IRC, the only reason is that we play with players what we have! We are going to be much more aggressive once we enter the market and buy the appropriate players, I believe we're going total Voetbal unless Van Gaal decides it is time to suddenly change his philosophy at the last stage of his career, to change something which worked wonders and which made him coach he's now. And of course it will take some time to adjust his team, 15 players gone 6 in and counting.. Carrick will be a good squad player next couple of seasons and mentor to whoever will be his successor, it would be very unwise to set up a play around him when he's reaching the end of his career, there is a new team forming and it needs new impulse, let alone his recent injury troubles. And everyone who watched late Carrick knows that he's good when he doesn't play 50 games a season, he's much better fresh, use him like Scholes to some extent..
 
Excellent at winning the ball back and his reading of the game is not to be underestimated. Two attributes we have severely lacked in midfield for many years now.
 
RedChip said:
Neither. The point I am trying to make is that Schneiderlin's standout qualities, namely interceptions and tackles, are/will not be required as much by our play as Southampton. Therefore, his strengths will not come to the fore; ergo, he will not be as effective for us as he is for Southampton.

Not saying when called upon, he will not be able to intercept and tackle very well.
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What a bizarre train of thought
 
Going on by some comments on here, it seems that Schneiderlin has never passed a ball in his life. There is a video posted on here showing exactly what he is capable of. He knows how to tackle, intercept and he definitely knows how to pass the ball, short and mid-range. His job if he is signed, is to be the player who protects the back 4, win the ball and pass it to the play makers ahead of him, things he is perfectly capable of. People keep mentioning Carrick, but about 90% of his passes are short or mid-range passes.
 
golden_blunder said:
It's like saying we wouldn't see the best of schmeichel because he had a brilliant defence in front of him

You make it sound like the guy is a limited footballer, he's far from it
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Never said he is limited but he has his limits. Personally, I don't see it strange to question whether we will make the best use of the strengths for which he has gained caf adulation.
 
RedChip said:
Never said he is limited but he has his limits. Personally, I don't see it strange to question whether we will make the best use of the strengths for which he has gained caf adulation.
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You mean like we are at the moment using Herrera creativity and dribbling abilities by playing him deeper than he should, because we don't have anyone else to partner Carrick?
 
Here is another great video showing exactly what he is capable of, and surprisingly he can pass too

 
The one thing he's 'missing' in terms of a midfield 2 is height. Not saying height in of itself is necessary, but whole team is kinda tiny at the moment. Outside of the 2 centrebacks, no outfield players above 6ft I believe - excluding Fellaini of course. Mata, Herrera, Blind, Young, Rooney, Shaw, Valencia - all kinda small.

Carrick is actually really useful in the air in two ways - firstly he can actually win goal kicks in midfield (seriously, watch us in the last 6 matches, we lose everything hit into the midfield) and he can help defend on set pieces and corners.

Schneiderlin is the same height as Blind - and neither are really 'big' in the air.

It sounds kinda simple, but having someone a bit bigger would probably help us in the prem. Watching us line up against some teams (stoke etc) on corners is terrifying.

And it might mean we can stop playing Fellaini. Which is always a plus.

(clue, the answer is Kondogbia :))
 
peterstorey said:
Meaningless stats.
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Correct. 3 tackles or interceptions a game tells you almost nothing. A player at the height of his defensive powers may never have to make a tackle or interception because he's so good at closing down passing angles that the opposition never even get to try to pass the ball to anyone near him. Carrick is one of the best at this but there's no stat for it.

Another example is judging a cm by assists. The key pass that initiates the move is often a couple of passes before the ball ends up in the net. I'd rather people just watch players than rely on stats.
 
SteveW said:
Correct. 3 tackles or interceptions a game tells you almost nothing. A player at the height of his defensive powers may never have to make a tackle or interception because he's so good at closing down passing angles that the opposition never even get to try to pass the ball to anyone near him. Carrick is one of the best at this but there's no stat for it.

Another example is judging a cm by assists. The key pass that initiates the move is often a couple of passes before the ball ends up in the net. I'd rather people just watch players than rely on stats.
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There's no place for such blue sky thinking on here pal.

Burn the witch!
 
I don't understand the thinking of some people on here.

Carrick/Schneiderlin/Herrera is a much more creative and mobile midfield than Carrick/Herrera/Fellaini.

One of our big problems last season was creating chances. It frees up Herrera to play in his best position and do that creating (that we saw from him even in pre season).
 
Season Team Tournament Apps Mins Tackles Inter Fouls Offsides Clear Drb Blocks OwnG Rating
2013/2014 Everton EPL 3 270 4.3 0.7 2.7 - 5.3 2 - - 7.75
2012/2013 Everton EPL 31 2786 2.6 1.2 2.6 - 2.1 0.4 0.1 - 7.59
2011/2012 Everton EPL 31(3) 2856 2.9 1.6 2.6 0.1 2 0.8 0.2 - 7.10
2010/2011 Everton EPL 19(1) 1654 3.4 1.7 1.9 - 3.1 1.2 0.3 - 7.10
2009/2010 Everton EPL 20(3) 1763 3.2 2.6 2.9 - 3.7 1 0.3 - 7.49

This is Fellaini's stats. Especially in his first seasons where he was played with more defensive role his stats are very close to Schneiderlin. I wouldn't say he has set the world alight at United?
 
Enigma_87 said:
Season Team Tournament Apps Mins Tackles Inter Fouls Offsides Clear Drb Blocks OwnG Rating
2013/2014 Everton EPL 3 270 4.3 0.7 2.7 - 5.3 2 - - 7.75
2012/2013 Everton EPL 31 2786 2.6 1.2 2.6 - 2.1 0.4 0.1 - 7.59
2011/2012 Everton EPL 31(3) 2856 2.9 1.6 2.6 0.1 2 0.8 0.2 - 7.10
2010/2011 Everton EPL 19(1) 1654 3.4 1.7 1.9 - 3.1 1.2 0.3 - 7.10
2009/2010 Everton EPL 20(3) 1763 3.2 2.6 2.9 - 3.7 1 0.3 - 7.49

This is Fellaini's stats. Especially in his first seasons where he was played with more defensive role his stats are very close to Schneiderlin. I wouldn't say he has set the world alight at United?
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Because stats like those are basically pointless. Why this obsession with meaningless stats?
 
Enigma_87 said:
Season Team Tournament Apps Mins Tackles Inter Fouls Offsides Clear Drb Blocks OwnG Rating
2013/2014 Everton EPL 3 270 4.3 0.7 2.7 - 5.3 2 - - 7.75
2012/2013 Everton EPL 31 2786 2.6 1.2 2.6 - 2.1 0.4 0.1 - 7.59
2011/2012 Everton EPL 31(3) 2856 2.9 1.6 2.6 0.1 2 0.8 0.2 - 7.10
2010/2011 Everton EPL 19(1) 1654 3.4 1.7 1.9 - 3.1 1.2 0.3 - 7.10
2009/2010 Everton EPL 20(3) 1763 3.2 2.6 2.9 - 3.7 1 0.3 - 7.49

This is Fellaini's stats. Especially in his first seasons where he was played with more defensive role his stats are very close to Schneiderlin. I wouldn't say he has set the world alight at United?
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Our eyes clearly show that Schneiderlin has much more to his game in technique, speed, mobility and passing. Fellaini scores more goals and got great chest control but really they are both completely different types of players. The attributes Schneiderlin brings are what our central midfield is currently starved of.
 
There may be better fits for the 4-3-3/4-5-1, but if we want to score 85+ goals and be up there with the best teams in Europe we probably need 4 attackers in front of Herrera, since we don't have a Messi or Ronaldo.

Schneiderlin-Herrera could be mobile enough to be a midfield pairing to allow for another offensive player out there.

So, in that role, Schneiderlin's tackling and interceptions may be more valuable than people think.

But in the formation we played last year, I think he'll be a good but not great fit.

I really hope that if we do sign him, it's Van Gaal recognizing that Mata and Di Maria need to be flourishing in our starting XI and not guys like Young and Fellaini filling roles and playing well but still maxing out as Europa League types.

This "4 players can be creative" thing is all well and good if you have great talent up front, but unless Depay is revelation, we'll have good more than great production.
 
m1y2 said:
Carrick never reached these stats seasons back where we certainly didn't play much possession football, Schneiderlin is no doubt better and stronger defensively and would add the needed balance to line-up more attacking players in front of him, without need of Rooney or Fellaini playing in midfield.. this is no judging by stats but by common sense, when people try to argument without stats than it's numbers which are demanded when you show the stats to support your argument then it means almost nothing.

And take in note this: Carrick in his soon 34 is nowhere near mobile to play in such tempo like Schneiderlin, it is due to him and some other player like Fellaini, Rooney, RVP, etc we play such rather slowish possession football, Van Gaal never played this IRC, the only reason is that we play with players what we have! We are going to be much more aggressive once we enter the market and buy the appropriate players, I believe we're going total Voetbal unless Van Gaal decides it is time to suddenly change his philosophy at the last stage of his career, to change something which worked wonders and which made him coach he's now. And of course it will take some time to adjust his team, 15 players gone 6 in and counting.. Carrick will be a good squad player next couple of seasons and mentor to whoever will be his successor, it would be very unwise to set up a play around him when he's reaching the end of his career, there is a new team forming and it needs new impulse, let alone his recent injury troubles. And everyone who watched late Carrick knows that he's good when he doesn't play 50 games a season, he's much better fresh, use him like Scholes to some extent..
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JPRouve said:
You mean like we are at the moment using Herrera creativity and dribbling abilities by playing him deeper than he should, because we don't have anyone else to partner Carrick?
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Now you are confounding my questioning of the contribution of Schneiderlin's intercepting and tackling skills with the benefit that another defensive minded midfielder could bring. I'm 100% sold on the latter. Not so on the former:

My point is simply that Schneiderlin's tackling and intercepting stats are probably being given much more weight than they should when people are discussing our signing him. This is because he will not need to tackle and intercept as much in our team and perhaps we should place more weight on other skills such as passing, positioning, leadership, ability to live up to higher expectations and so on.

Talking more generally, though I love stats in real life, I am not convinced most of the stats collected and thrown about in football mean what people think they mean, especially when quoted without context. This why I objected to the tackles and interceptions stats that were being used to imply Schneiderlin is infact better than Carrick. I think that's a nonsense.
 
RedChip said:
Now you are confounding my questioning of the contribution of Schneiderlin's intercepting and tackling skills with the benefit that another defensive minded midfielder could bring. I'm 100% sold on the latter. Not so on the former:

My point is simply that Schneiderlin's tackling and intercepting stats are probably being given much more weight than they should when people are discussing our signing him. This is because he will not need to tackle and intercept as much in our team and perhaps we should place more weight on other skills such as passing, positioning, leadership, ability to live up to higher expectations and so on.

Talking more generally, though I love stats in real life, I am not convinced most of the stats collected and thrown about in football mean what people think they mean, especially when quoted without context. This why I objected to the tackles and interceptions stats that were being used to imply Schneiderlin is infact better than Carrick. I think that's a nonsense.
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The only problem being that you are the one who reduced him at that, what we said more than once in this thread is that he is good technically, he is a good passer, he is mobile, he has a good positioning and he happened to be one of the best tackler-interceptor in the league.
 
NoPace said:
There may be better fits for the 4-3-3/4-5-1, but if we want to score 85+ goals and be up there with the best teams in Europe we probably need 4 attackers in front of Herrera, since we don't have a Messi or Ronaldo.

Schneiderlin-Herrera could be mobile enough to be a midfield pairing to allow for another offensive player out there.

So, in that role, Schneiderlin's tackling and interceptions may be more valuable than people think.

But in the formation we played last year, I think he'll be a good but not great fit.

I really hope that if we do sign him, it's Van Gaal recognizing that Mata and Di Maria need to be flourishing in our starting XI and not guys like Young and Fellaini filling roles and playing well but still maxing out as Europa League types.

This "4 players can be creative" thing is all well and good if you have great talent up front, but unless Depay is revelation, we'll have good more than great production.
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The problem here is that you would be nullifying Herrera's impact if you play him that deep as he lacks the passing range or defensive nous to affect games there. If we play him as the furthest forward midfielder in the same team with Schneiderlin and Gundogun/Carrick we will get more from him as a creative force and we will also be able to choke teams since Herrera can do a job pressing the opposing deep lying playmaker. Considering the goals he's scored this season I think he has the ability to hit double figures if he plays in an advanced position.

The problem this year is that we struggled with creativity since we had a dysfunctional side and this makes it impossible to accurately point to the source of our problems. Is it that we have shit strikers or that our strikers were starved of service and subsequently lost confidence? Schneiderlin is not the magical pill to the issues that dogged our side but signing him would be a step in the right direction and our rebuilding job will not be accomplished by mega bids for tear away wingers and pint sized Spanish pass masters alone, we need to make smart moves in the market and his capture, imo, is one such move.
 
JPRouve said:
The only problem being that you are the one who reduced him at that, what we said more than once in this thread is that he is good technically, he is a good passer, he is mobile, he has a good positioning and he happened to be one of the best tackler-interceptor in the league.
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That's not true at all. If you read all my posts on this particular topic today, you will see that's not the case.
 
RedChip said:
But we do not struggle to keep the ball, which means Schneiderlin's strengths will mostly be wasted on us.
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RedChip said:
Neither. The point I am trying to make is that Schneiderlin's standout qualities, namely interceptions and tackles, are/will not be required as much by our play as Southampton. Therefore, his strengths will not come to the fore; ergo, he will not be as effective for us as he is for Southampton.

Not saying when called upon, he will not be able to intercept and tackle very well.
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When you say that, it makes me think that you think that intercepting and tackling are Schneiderlin only strength.
 
RedChip said:
Now you are confounding my questioning of the contribution of Schneiderlin's intercepting and tackling skills with the benefit that another defensive minded midfielder could bring. I'm 100% sold on the latter. Not so on the former:

My point is simply that Schneiderlin's tackling and intercepting stats are probably being given much more weight than they should when people are discussing our signing him. This is because he will not need to tackle and intercept as much in our team and perhaps we should place more weight on other skills such as passing, positioning, leadership, ability to live up to higher expectations and so on.

Talking more generally, though I love stats in real life, I am not convinced most of the stats collected and thrown about in football mean what people think they mean, especially when quoted without context. This why I objected to the tackles and interceptions stats that were being used to imply Schneiderlin is infact better than Carrick. I think that's a nonsense.
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..no it only says he's better at some aspects of his game, Carrick's better at other, surely the fact they (Saints) play different style of football may benefit him in having these numbers but that doesn't change the fact Schneiderlin is perfect tough guy who we need. I said countless times I don't trow stats out just so, I support my general opinion of the player which is made simply by watching him play in more than two seasons of football, I watched them very often under Pochettino for their style and also now under Koeman, they are entertaining..

It's very difficult to say who is better player it will always be and you'll see people throwing their opinions and saying things like it's facts, on caf and other forums you can see it often, the fact is a lot of things are simply incomparable and the only thing you can do is to give some arguments based on subjective view and support it by some quantifiable facts such as stats but that can't often really decide what's better either.

Carrick vs Schneiderlin in last couple of sentences for me: Both are great players, both are great readers of the game one is clean elegant player who can intercept the ball and shut down spaces, well the latter is hard tackler who can also intercept the ball, his speed gives him some advantage, Schneiderlin is undoubtedly more mobile player, the ground he can cover with intensity Carrick can only dream of, so I think it's Schneiderlin who is better in defensive play overall, Carrick on the other hand is great passer and dictator of the game when we have the ball. The question is, Is it what we need now? I don't think so. I want us to play some faster football and dominate the pitch not only on our half and that's what palyer like Schneiderlin can offer, he will lead the defensive line and destroy everything in front of him while from time to time spreading the ball if needed, but we will not need it that much if we win the ball in the opponent's half.

I only said that Schneiderlin would be a better player for us because if we want to get rid of this possession football we need more players who can win the ball even further up the pitch, with Carrick we're too passive, If we are gonna play this stuff now on well than we might consider a little different player, at the same time I don't think that Schneiderlin is bad passer and not at all much worse than Carrick at the time he came to us, so wouldn't really mind him anyway but if we want to play possession football than throw money for some ball player but there are not many players out there who are also decent enough defensively and I believe we will not settle for this boring style..
 
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