Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

[RuudTom83]

He’s doing a fantastic job, all the media and pundits agree, he’s improved the squad and everyone knows there role

I’m just hoping Ole is studying him closely and can learn a thing or two.

 

[VP89]

350m plus was enough for Klopp to win CL and PL trophy. But 350m plus wasn’t enough for Mourinho? Cut the excuses.

With respect, I think you are getting confused as to what you are arguing about. No one is excusing Mourinho - Klopp won the league because he's a better manager. But you cannot argue that Jose Mourinho did not improve the results of the team in the season he was backed. You cannot argue Klopp did not improve the team after he was backed. You are saying don't blindly talk about money spent and then cite examples of two managers who actually improved materially in the seasons they spent money. Mourinho being a particularly interesting one because we stopped backing him, he got pissed and it all imploded. Massively down to him to be fair because he still had a good squad, but the point is, they both spent money and they both improved the results of the team in the years they did.

Spending more money is also part of skills/ability from manager to know who they need to spend. Ole has shown good in this aspect, he knows what he needs to spend and the area he needs to improve and he used his money well enough. You should’t mention the spending because Arteta hasn’t shown enough in this aspect.

He hasn't though. It was well reported that Sancho was our prime and priority target when what our team needed more was a quality, pacey centre back. Whilst acknowledging fully that a right winger was also in need, a player like Upmaecano during a release clause would have been far more attainable at less than half price of Sancho. So no, I disagree that what he needs to improve by way of prioritizing transfers. I also disagree that he knows what he needs to spend, because £80m was spent on Maguire which doesn't much suit Lindelof who has similar weaknesses (pace). Maguire can be a top CB as partner to a defender who is a different mould but in my opinion he misjudged the value of Harry Maguire as a target.

That said I like Donny, I like Cavani, I like Telles. I think Ole should be trusted but this idea that Areta hasn't done enough is just really really weird when he's spent less money very well in Partey, Tierney and Gabriel.

What we know and we can compare is that, some players that were labeled as not good enough under Mourinho are now improving under Ole. Rashford, Martial, Fred and etc for example, that’s progress. While some players that were labeled as not good enough under Emery are not improving under arteta and the ones who actually rated high under Emery like guendouzi is being poor managed by arteta, that’s not progress.

As I said, Arteta needs time but of course, time is running out if he continues playing like this. When he joined it was thought that he actually stabalized the defence well, Elneny started the season very well for him and Xakha looked better under him than under Emery. Aubameyang was still red hot last season, and whilst granting this season is another matter, you can also argue Martial isn't exactly setting the world alight for Ole either this season. So it's swings and roundabouts, but no one is comparing Ole to Arteta apart from you and a couple other conspiracy theorists who think I have double standards. I've said in both cases they need to pick up consistency, both work for big clubs and will be unsafe if they crash in form for too long.

 

[anant]

Net spend is relevant when judging transfer business by executives but it's not as relevant when looking at new managers is it? Is it Arteta's fault that Arsenal fecked up on Pepe who is not remotely as marketable as Lukaku was for Ole?

Just to be clear I've been very consistent with both. The media weren't rallying for an Ole sack when he struggled in the first half of last season and they wouldn't with Arteta as of yet. Especially when he's won an FA Cup in his first season. What I've been saying for some time on the thread though, is that Arteta needs to get his balance right before its too late. No manager can afford the run he's on.

99% of the times I'd agree with that 1st statement but not this time, as the spend by the club was because we were letting these many players leave. As in, Maguire was signed as we were losing Smalling, AWB was signed because of Valencia. Lukaku was replaced by Mason effectively and so on.

If you're selling 1st teamers, you need to consider the net spend as well, because these players require replacing.

 

[VP89]

99% of the times I'd agree with that 1st statement but not this time, as the spend by the club was because we were letting these many players leave. As in, Maguire was signed as we were losing Smalling, AWB was signed because of Valencia. Lukaku was replaced by Mason effectively and so on.

If you're selling 1st teamers, you need to consider the net spend as well, because these players require replacing.

Ole had star players leaving that needed replacing, I agree with that. Arteta didnt have star players in the positions he needed to improve though. Arteta wasn't able to sell a Lukaku to bring net spend down, but Ole could. That's not on Arteta or Ole to be honest. Its a virtue of what the manager picks up when they join the club.

Which is why I prefer to look at what they did with the money they spent as a reset from when they joined the club. Who have they brought in and how have they fared, did they improve players, are they improving the way the team plays, are they picking up results, and are the transfers justified. I see Arteta as being close to a sack if he doesn't pick up his form. Regarding money spent though, I see Gabriel, Partey and Tierney as money well spent. I don't look at Harry Maguire and think the same, though.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

You are evidently getting confused as to what you are arguing about. No one is excusing Mourinho - Klopp won the league because he's a better manager. But you cannot argue that Jose Mourinho did not improve the results of the team in the season he was backed. You cannot argue Klopp did not improve the team after he was backed. You are saying don't blindly talk about money spent and then cite examples of two managers who actually improved materially in the seasons they spent money. Mourinho being a particularly interesting one because we stopped backing him, he got pissed and it all imploded. Massively down to him to be fair because he still had a good squad, but the point is, they both spent money and they both improved the results of the team in the years they did.

He hasn't though. It was well reported that Sancho was our prime and priority target when what our team needed more was a quality, pacey centre back. Whilst acknowledging fully that a right winger was also in need, a player like Upmaecano during a release clause would have been far more attainable at less than half price of Sancho. So no, I disagree that what he needs to improve by way of prioritizing transfers. I also disagree that he knows what he needs to spend, because £80m was spent on Maguire which doesn't much suit Lindelof who has similar weaknesses (pace). Maguire can be a top CB as partner to a defender who is a different mould but in my opinion he misjudged the value of Harry Maguire as a target.

That said I like Donny, I like Cavani, I like Telles. I think Ole should be trusted but this idea that Areta hasn't done enough is just really really weird when he's spent less money very well in Partey, Tierney and Gabriel.

As I said, Arteta needs time but of course, time is running out if he continues playing like this. When he joined it was thought that he actually stabalized the defence well, Elneny started the season very well for him and Xakha looked better under him than under Emery. Aubameyang was still red hot last season, and whilst granting this season is another matter, you can also argue Martial isn't exactly setting the world alight for Ole either this season. So it's swings and roundabouts, but no one is comparing Ole to Arteta apart from you and a couple other conspiracy theorists who think I have double standards. I've said in both cases they need to pick up consistency, both work for big clubs and will be unsafe if they crash in form for too long.

Okay since you are insisted then let’s play along with what you said about Ole isn’t doing good in spending money. This still doesn’t give you the right thing to mention it on Arteta’s argument. There is no telling that Arteta can do better than Ole if he was given 200m plus.

What we can compare is that Ole improved players that weren’t rated or were considered as not good enough under Mourinho. I’m not just talking about this season, last season Martial showed massive improvement. While Arteta? Nothing.

He isn’t improving players that weren’t rated or were considered as not good enough under Emery. In fact, how the feck Emery could work with Guendouzi for a year and half but Arteta had problem with him in less than a year. That’s also part of poor skill or man management from the manager.

Aubameyang was already good under Emery.

Elneny is on the bench now mate. Big deal few weeks good period from him. Even Pereira had much better positive period under Ole.

Xhaka looked better under Arteta? Arsenal fans didn’t think so

 

[Bebestation]

I'm not sure if its Arteta or not - but this Season became almost instantly harder before they even played a game because they decided to sell their best goalkeeper to Aston Villa and keep Leno instead.

I really didnt understand why they did that and it seemed like they went with the guy who had a slightly better career name so far rather than was clearly playing better for them.

Yesterday's 2nd goal could have been avoided. The goalkeeper they sold was playing very well for Arsenal and I wouldn't be surprised if he was playing well now at Aston Villa.

 

[anant]

Ole had star players leaving that needed replacing, I agree with that. Arteta didnt have star players in the positions he needed to improve though. Ole wasn't able to sell a Lukaku to bring net spend down, but Ole could. That's not on Arteta or Ole to be honest. Which is why I prefer to look at what they did with the money they spent as a reset from when they joined the club. Who have they brought in and how have they fared, did they improve players, are they improving the way the team plays, are they picking up results, and are the transfers justified. I see Arteta as being close to a sack if he doesn't pick up his form. Regarding money spent though, I see Gabriel, Partey and Tierney as money well spent. I don't look at Harry Maguire and think the same, though.

Um, we had planned n replacing Lukaku with Dybala, and had we done that, our net spend would have been way higher. We decided to gamble on a kid, instead. 90% of the times, a big sale means that the team will spend big to replace him as well. For example, look at Chelsea, the amount from hazard's and Morata's sale got reinvested. Hazard at the very least was a starting XI player. And if they want to spend 60m to replace him with Pulisic, you can't use that as a stick to beat Lampard with.

Having said that, one can't use the excuse that Ole or Lampard weren't backed (whether they were backed sufficiently is a different argument). And wrt Arteta here, he had 80m to spend. He could have used that to buy a #10, especially if he didn't plan on registering Ozil. And if they wanted to play this shit brand of football, I don't think they needed both Gabriel and Partey (both seem like good signings, but I dont think they are as important as a #10)

 

[AltiUn]

Somewhat understandable with Ozil's situation although arteta said he was left out for footballing reason. But Saliba one is strange. He was highly rated and even termed Mbappe of centre backs so why is he not picked and groomed. He was playing first team football in French league so he can definitely be in the senior squad. Weird one to say the least.

Regarding Salbia, both his parents passed away recently so I'm guessing that's got a lot to do with it.

 

[VP89]

Okay since you are insisted then let’s play along with what you said about Ole isn’t doing good in spending money. This still doesn’t give you the right thing to mention it on Arteta’s argument. There is no telling that Arteta can do better than Ole if he was given 200m plus.

What are you on about? I'm talking about Ole when others bring him into the argument. I never bring Ole into this unless someone else points the topic that way, I'm not obsessed like others are I've otherwise just spoken about Arteta as a standalone evaluation.

What we can compare is that Ole improved players that weren’t rated or were considered as not good enough under Mourinho. I’m not just talking about this season, last season Martial showed massive improvement. While Arteta? Nothing.

Martial looks off the boil this season. I mean, if you're going to cherry pick Xakha posts to yesterday (let alone last season where he played very well in a range of big games for Arteta), then surely I should point out Martial's form only to this season.

Not that I think it's correct to do that, though. You seem to be hell bent on crowbarring an Ole vs Arteta debate, and then asking why I mention Ole + money spent in replies to other posts. It's because posters like yourself keep bringing comparisons to Ole into play

He isn’t improving players that weren’t rated or were considered as not good enough under Emery. In fact, how the feck Emery could work with Guendouzi for a year and half but Arteta had problem with him in less than a year. That’s also part of poor skill or man management from the manager.

Why do you keep mentioning Guendouzi? He was a player with a bad attitude that Emery was too weak to ditch (Emery is actually a very weak manager, this was a criticism of him during his time handling big profiles at PSG). There's a reason Gendouzi is not being picked up by any big club, or even near big club, even on a free. Clearly it's not just Arteta that doesn't rate him.

Aubameyang was already good under Emery.

Elneny is on the bench now mate. Big deal few weeks good period from him. Even Pereira had much better positive period under Ole.

Xhaka looked better under Arteta? Arsenal fans didn’t think so

The whole team looks shite right now? I don't understand what you are trying to prove with this. Should I take posts from the 1-0 defeat from Arsenal or 6-1 from Tottenham, or the Istanbul result and look at the player threads on that day? It's a very odd approach you've taken. I obviously meant generally on balance since he's joined, Xakha had picked up his form, Elneny started the season well and played a good part in their wins (and against us he was very, very good). Luiz was a free transfer, Gabriel is new, Tierney is new, who else do we compare for Arteta vs Emery?

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

 

[Lynty]

Sacking Wenger was such a poor decision

 

[AshRK]

Regarding Salbia, both his parents passed away recently so I'm guessing that's got a lot to do with it.

Didn't know that. That's really sad.

 

[VP89]

Um, we had planned n replacing Lukaku with Dybala, and had we done that, our net spend would have been way higher. We decided to gamble on a kid, instead. 90% of the times, a big sale means that the team will spend big to replace him as well. For example, look at Chelsea, the amount from hazard's and Morata's sale got reinvested. Hazard at the very least was a starting XI player. And if they want to spend 60m to replace him with Pulisic, you can't use that as a stick to beat Lampard with.

We didn't "plan" shit with Dybala. He was offered to us by Juve and rejected us. He was not a player on Ole's original list or a player we had on our radar before the opportunity ever popped up, before it was then shut very shortly after.
And I'm not sure about the point you are trying to make re. Pulisic, sorry. I agree? I guess? I don't know what the end point is though.

Having said that, one can't use the excuse that Ole or Lampard weren't backed (whether they were backed sufficiently is a different argument). And wrt Arteta here, he had 80m to spend. He could have used that to buy a #10, especially if he didn't plan on registering Ozil. And if they wanted to play this shit brand of football, I don't think they needed both Gabriel and Partey (both seem like good signings, but I dont think they are as important as a #10)

He had 80m to spend which is half of Ole or Lampard (after his transfer ban) from a weaker starting point too (we'd only really take Aubameyang into a United/Chelsea squad lets be honest. I can't think of anyone else).

Also why would he spend his entire budget on one player? I think they needed a better a center back and a midfield destroyer as higher priorities. That doesn't mean they are where they want to be, but at the same time I agree, it doesn't mean Arteta hasn't been backed enough to show improvement. He should be showing improvement now. Just like Ole should be. Which brings me back to what I said earlier - people need to stop being conspiracy theorists that one is getting different treatment from another.

 

[AltiUn]

Didn't know that. That's really sad.

Yeah, it's really awful.

 

[Sweet Square]

Sacking Wenger was such a poor decision

100% this.

Everybody could understand why they did it at the time but clearly the guy was working miracles over there. Arsenal fans would now kill for entertaining football(Even Wenger shite teams played some great stuff) and a constant 4th-5th place finish(With a FA cup winner every few years).

Plus might be wrong but the sacking seemed down to mostly fan pressure.

 

[Pep's Suit]

To be honest, Saliba played few games in PL2 and even in last few days of transfer window there were rumours he could leave on loan so I genuinely think Arteta simply doesn't rate him.

 

[Dancfc]

Sacking Wenger was such a poor decision

Wenger was crap at the end, just because they've somehow conspired to get significantly worse shouldn't distract from that.

Pretty much every set of rival fans wanted him to stay for a reason!

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

What are you on about? I'm talking about Ole when others bring him into the argument. I never bring Ole into this unless someone else points the topic that way, I'm not obsessed like others are I've otherwise just spoken about Arteta as a standalone evaluation.

Dear me, you have issue with your reading skills.

I never say you shouldn't bring Ole into argument. I said you shouldn't bring out how much they have spent into the argument because there is no telling that Arteta can do better than Ole if he was given 200m plus.

Martial looks off the boil this season. I mean, if you're going to cherry pick Xakha posts to yesterday (let alone last season where he played very well in a range of big games for Arteta), then surely I should point out Martial's form only to this season.

Not that I think it's correct to do that, though. You seem to be hell bent on crowbarring an Ole vs Arteta debate, and then asking why I mention Ole + money spent in replies to other posts. It's because posters like yourself keep bringing comparisons to Ole into play

Why do you keep mentioning Guendouzi? He was a player with a bad attitude that Emery was too weak to ditch (Emery is actually a very weak manager, this was a criticism of him during his time handling big profiles at PSG). There's a reason Gendouzi is not being picked up by any big club, or even near big club, even on a free. Clearly it's not just Arteta that doesn't rate him.

The whole team looks shite right now? I don't understand what you are trying to prove with this. Should I take posts from the 1-0 defeat from Arsenal or 6-1 from Tottenham, or the Istanbul result and look at the player threads on that day? It's a very odd approach you've taken. I obviously meant generally on balance since he's joined, Xakha had picked up his form, Elneny started the season well and played a good part in their wins (and against us he was very, very good). Luiz was a free transfer, Gabriel is new, Tierney is new, who else do we compare for Arteta vs Emery?

Martial showed improvement last season. None of Arsenal players showed improvement under Arteta whether it was this season or last season. I repeat None.

Read the post again mate, they weren't just talking about Xhaka's yesterday performance but actually overall since he arrive at the club. Nothing has changed.

Again, if Emery can manage Guendouzi then there is no reason why Arteta can't do it. So there is a way to manage him. This is part of manager's ability to know how to manage his players. Each players have different personality and attitude and you need to manage them differently.

There are many aspects from manager. The only thing fair so far to compare these two is on how managers improved and managed their players. So far Ole has shown better in this aspect. Money spent, Arteta hasn't been tested what he's capable of, thus, money spent shouldn't be mentioned.

 

[anant]

Wenger was crap at the end, just because they've somehow conspired to get significantly worse shouldn't distract from that.

Pretty much every set of rival fans wanted him to stay for a reason!

Nah, give Wenger money and he'd have done a much better job. In post SAF years, we managed to finish above them just once in the league while he was there, and this despite us having outspent them every season I think

 

[VP89]

Dear me, you have issue with your reading skills.

I never say you shouldn't bring Ole into argument. I said you shouldn't bring out how much they have spent into the argument because there is no telling that Arteta can do better than Ole if he was given 200m plus.

That's quite cute, really. "When comparing managers, don't bring money into it".
I never said Arteta can do better with Ole with more money spent. I said that Ole is benchmarked needing that level of consistency soon because he 1) picked up more talented squad 2) had more money to spend and 3) had 6 months longer in the role.
Now if you want to debate any of that feel free, otherwise take your advice and learn how to read, because I never suggested Arteta can do better. I just said Arteta needs time, which is quickly running out if he crashes like this. Just like it would for Ole.

Martial showed improvement last season. None of Arsenal players showed improvement under Arteta whether it was this season or last season. I repeat None.

Repeat it 3 times if you want to, it won't change the fact that you're talking out of your arse. Arsenal's entire backline looked far, far better last season under Arteta than it did under Emery and Xakha looked a different player under Arteta last season than he did for Emery too. He improved the aggressiveness and mentality as a unit that also led to some big wins. To suggest that last season, Arteta had improved no aspect of Emery's squad is over the top.

Read the post again mate, they weren't just talking about Xhaka's yesterday performance but actually overall since he arrive at the club. Nothing has changed.

You're cherry picking heat of the moment posts from a matchday thread. If you follow matchday threads on the caf, you will see similar idiocy here. Point to AFTV matches last season or matchday big wins from last season on the same forum, you'll see a different tune about Xakha.

Again, if Emery can manage Guendouzi then there is no reason why Arteta can't do it. This is part of manager's ability to know how to manage his players. Each players have different personality and attitude and you need to manage them differently.

Again, a player of Guendouzi's mentality and attitude is not welcome at Arsenal. Emery is generally a weak manager and doesn't have that ruthlessness that Arteta showed with him. This is actually a positive facet of both Arteta and Ole, that they both believe they'd rather take a hole in a team than an arsehole. Look at where Gendouzi is playing now, no big club or manager wants him, that's not on Arteta. It's not a question of whether he could be managed, it's a question of "should be worth the effort". The answer is a resounding no, and no one really has an issue with that oddly apart from you. Move on.

There are many aspects from manager. The only thing fair so far to compare the two is on how managers improved and managed their players. So far Ole has shown better in this aspect. Money spent, Arteta hasn't been tested what he's capable of.

I think it's too early to compare the two managers. I don't want to compare the two managers. Others do. fecksake leave me alone with the Ole vs Arteta shit. I even said earlier to another poster, one has been in the role longer, spent more money and is deeper in the process. Arteta is doing worse than Ole is right now, in 3 months he might do better, or the same, who the feck knows but I really don't care for comparing to Ole unless someone else is dragging Ole into the thread and quoting me when I never mentioned him.

 

[CM]

I've been saying this privately to some of my closest friends. Their win against us was kinda lucky. They did the minimum, which was stopping us from playing, created little and needed a pk, stupidly given away by Pogba, to win. If Ole had done better, and reacted to Arteta stopping our diamond correctly, it could have been different.

As it is, Arsenal and Arteta were praised for winning against us, when all they did was do just enough to draw.

It was lucky. They were also lucky not to lose to Leeds, who hit the woodwork 3 times. If they lose to Spurs I think Arteta's position will rightly be under scrutiny.

 

[Dancfc]

Nah, give Wenger money and he'd have done a much better job. In post SAF years, we managed to finish above them just once in the league while he was there, and this despite us having outspent them every season I think

Post 2013 he had a decent amount of money yet his recruitment bar a few notable exceptions was shocking and he never fixed real problem areas. Also he let Szcezny and Gnabry slip through the net (which Arsenal are getting quite the free pass for given the shit we get for KDB and Salah).

Make no mistake the rot at Arsenal very much started under his watch.

 

[Topgun1]

Wenger was crap at the end, just because they've somehow conspired to get significantly worse shouldn't distract from that.

Pretty much every set of rival fans wanted him to stay for a reason!

Thank you for telling the truth. I literally got suspended by an Arsenal forum (since then re-instated) after saying that by the time Wenger leaves, he will leave us outside the top 4. What happened his last two seasons with our club? Left us outside of the top 4 and in a shocking state. It was completely unfair to dump that apalling squad on Emery and expect him to do what Wenger could not manage to do (finish in top 4).

It never ceases to amaze me how blinded some people are especially Wenger cultists. Wenger finished outside the top 4 for TWO consecutive seasons. He's the one who started the rot. Our only job in the Champions League before then was to get annihilated by every half-decent team we faced in the second round.

Arsenal fans think he's a legend for winning 3 league titles in 18 years. I admit I enjoyed some of our football, I think we played beautiful football at times but the guy's trophy record is shocking.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That's quite cute, really. "When comparing managers, don't bring money into it".
I never said Arteta can do better with Ole with more money spent. I said that Ole is benchmarked needing that level of consistency soon because he 1) picked up more talented squad 2) had more money to spend and 3) had 6 months longer in the role.
Now if you want to debate any of that feel free, otherwise take your advice and learn how to read, because I never suggested Arteta can do better. I just said Arteta needs time, which is quickly running out if he crashes like this. Just like it would for Ole.


Repeat it 3 times if you want to, it won't change the fact that you're talking out of your arse. Arsenal's entire backline looked far, far better last season under Arteta than it did under Emery and Xakha looked a different player under Arteta last season than he did for Emery too.

You're cherry picking heat of the moment posts from a matchday thread. If you follow matchday threads on the caf, you will see similar idiocy here. Point to AFTV matches last season or matchday big wins from last season on the same forum, you'll see a different tune about Xakha.


Again, a player of Guendouzi's mentality and attitude is not welcome at Arsenal. Emery is generally a weak manager and doesn't have that ruthlessness that Arteta showed with him. This is actually a positive facet of both Arteta and Ole, that they both believe they'd rather take a hole in a team than an arsehole. Look at where Gendouzi is playing now, no big club or manager wants him, that's not on Arteta. Move on.

I think it's too early to compare the two managers. I don't want to compare the two managers. Others do. fecksake leave me alone with the Ole vs Arteta shit. I even said earlier to another poster, one has been in the role longer, spent more money and is deeper in the process. Arteta is doing worse than Ole is right now, in 3 months he might do better, or the same, who the feck knows but I really don't care for comparing to Ole unless someone else is dragging Ole into the thread and quoting me when I never mentioned him.

These what you called talented were not rated and considered not good enough under Mourinho that the manager had to beg the board to spend money on Perisic, Lukaku & Sanchez to replace those talented players. There are also others being considered not good enough before Ole came in.

The fact that now people including you rated our players higher than before means Ole is doing a good job to build his team not just by spending the money but also managing, developing & improving the players to become better as well. This is progress.

Under Arteta, players aren't managed well and improving under Arteta from Emery era. That is not progress. You don't need 200m to improve Xhaka, Lacazatte, Pepe and the other players. You can waste my time arguing about Xhaka improving under Arteta, in reality Arsenal fans in Arsenalmania forum didn't think so and I would rather listen to Arsenal fans than you.

 

[Dancfc]

Thank you for telling the truth. I literally got suspended by an Arsenal forum (since then re-instated) after saying that by the time Wenger leaves, he will leave us outside the top 4. What happened his last two seasons with our club? Left us outside of the top 4 and in a shocking state. It was completely unfair to dump that apalling squad on Emery and expect him to do what Wenger could not manage to do (finish in top 4).

It never ceases to amaze me how blinded some people are especially Wenger cultists. Wenger finished outside the top 4 for TWO consecutive seasons. He's the one who started the rot. Our only job in the Champions League before then was to get annihilated by every half-decent team we faced in the second round.

Arsenal fans think he's a legend for winning 3 league titles in 18 years. I admit I enjoyed some of our football, I think we played beautiful football at times but the guy's trophy record is shocking.

Tbh I thought he was overrated even in the early 00s. I was dismissed as just being a jealous Chelsea fan (as you were always beating us at that point) but I look at the team you had and thought you should have been dominating England and regularly making the semi's for CL minimum.

You can probably excuse him for not being able to dominate England given he was up against Fergie but to get knocked out by Valencia (twice), Deportivo and even us given the hold you had on us at that point was criminal in my opinion.

 

[JSArsenal]

Thank you for telling the truth. I literally got suspended by an Arsenal forum (since then re-instated) after saying that by the time Wenger leaves, he will leave us outside the top 4. What happened his last two seasons with our club? Left us outside of the top 4 and in a shocking state. It was completely unfair to dump that apalling squad on Emery and expect him to do what Wenger could not manage to do (finish in top 4).

It never ceases to amaze me how blinded some people are especially Wenger cultists. Wenger finished outside the top 4 for TWO consecutive seasons. He's the one who started the rot. Our only job in the Champions League before then was to get annihilated by every half-decent team we faced in the second round.

Arsenal fans think he's a legend for winning 3 league titles in 18 years. I admit I enjoyed some of our football, I think we played beautiful football at times but the guy's trophy record is shocking.

This is a bit disingenuous. I'm sure you remember what we were before he arrived. Think about your second paragraph and ask yourself why it was such a disgrace for Wenger to finish outside the top 4 for two consecutive seasons? It was because he didn't live up to the standards that he himself set.

Wenger raised the bar at the club, improved every single facet of it from top to bottom. Without him, we're Everton right now or Newcastle in terms of facilities and stature. You talk about three league titles in 18 years, ignoring the domestic trophies he won and the context surrounding his tenure. No other Arsenal manager had to work with the restrictions that Wenger had to work with or faced such strong competition in the form of the greatest manager of all time and then two doped up financial clubs. If winning three league titles was so easy, then why didn't every club win them? Nevertheless, our previous three league titles before Wenger arrived? 1971, 1989 and 1991.

Again, slaughter the man all you want for how things ended up, but you're really only blaming him for failing to live up to his own success.

 

[romufc]

That's quite cute, really. "When comparing managers, don't bring money into it".
I never said Arteta can do better with Ole with more money spent. I said that Ole is benchmarked needing that level of consistency soon because he 1) picked up more talented squad 2) had more money to spend and 3) had 6 months longer in the role.

Thats not entirely true though is it?

Ole picked up players like Fellaini, Mata, Lingard, Perreira, Young, Matic, McTominay, Sanchez who maybe were good but you wouldn't swap them with Arsenal players.

Arteta picked up a squad with Leno / Martinez, Tierney, Cabellos, Aubemayang, Lacazette, Pepe, Saka

With Ole he got, Pogba, DDG, Martial, Rashford.

So in your tune, Ole took us from 6th to 3rd which is crap. Arteta should be taking Arsenal to 3rd to see progress then, if Ole is used as a benchmark.

 

[VP89]

These what you called talented were not rated and considered not good enough under Mourinho that the manager had to beg the board to spend money on Perisic, Lukaku & Sanchez to replace those talented players. There are also others being considered not good enough before Ole came in.

That can be your opinion, but it's lunacy to suggest the squad Arteta inherited was as talented as the squad Ole did.

The fact that now people including you rated our players higher than before means Ole is doing a good job to build his team not just by spending the money but also managing, developing & improving the players to become better as well. This is progress.

I never said Ole hasn't progressed from Mourinho, so I'm unsure why you are making this statement.

Under Arteta, players aren't managed well and improving under Arteta from Emery era. That is not progress. You don't need 200m to improve Xhaka, Lacazatte, Pepe and the other players. You can waste my time arguing about Xhaka improving under Arteta, in reality Arsenal fans in Arsenalmania forum didn't think so and I would rather listen to Arsenal fans than you.

That again, is your opinion. I gave examples of the defence which is better, and a player example who performed better for Arteta last season when he looked frustrated, cut out and ready to leave under Emery.

in reality Arsenal fans in Arsenalmania forum didn't think so and I would rather listen to Arsenal fans than you.

Don't make shit up. Go back to the posts about Xakha performances under Arteta last season. He improved the player, and that's why Xakha played well against good teams, like in the FA Cup final, against us earlier this season and against us last season. He was a better player for Arteta then than he was for Emery, where he was a number 1 villain and scapegoat. He progressed under Areta last season, this article also summarises well from a tactical perspective: https://www.football.london/arsenal-fc/players/granit-xhaka-mikel-arteta-analysis-18084967

Anyway I dont care for Ole vs Arteta comparisons. And I don't care for stupid opinions like Arteta hasn't improved a single player, when there are facets he did improve upon last season, and players too. AFTV fanbase see some players that did improve, and ex players see the same. E.g. Ian Wright last season: "People like [Lucas] Torreira, [Granit] Xhaka, he's turned Xhaka right around, he's got something out of [Shkodran] Mustafi, he played well against Burnley the other day.

If you think different, thats fine. We can just have different opinions.

 

[VP89]

Thats not entirely true though is it?

Ole picked up players like Fellaini, Mata, Lingard, Perreira, Young, Matic, McTominay, Sanchez who maybe were good but you wouldn't swap them with Arsenal players.

Arteta picked up a squad with Leno / Martinez, Tierney, Cabellos, Aubemayang, Lacazette, Pepe, Saka

With Ole he got, Pogba, DDG, Martial, Rashford.

So in your tune, Ole took us from 6th to 3rd which is crap. Arteta should be taking Arsenal to 3rd to see progress then, if Ole is used as a benchmark.

Ole isn't a benchmark, and if Arteta had double the spend then sure, maybe. Ole could recoup Lukaku, Arteta could not recoup Pepe. That's on the people above the manager, so that's why I really don't like comparing one or the other.

Also from the names you mentioned, not a single one of those players swap for a United equivalent barring Auba. which is why Ole picked up a better team. Ole got a team with Lukaku, Pogba, Rashford, Martial who are better midfielders/attackers than what Arsenal had. McT and Fred were still > Elneny. They didn't really have anyone comparable to Matic, bar Xakha who looked like there was no way back for under Emery. Ghendouzi maybe? He was playing OK at the time.

Smalling, Lindelof were both better center backs than anything Arsenal had to offer, and Luke Shaw was a better left back than Arsenal's offerings. DDG was better than Leno and RB I agree, there was a hole for us, which was plugged with AWB.

 

[JSArsenal]

As far as Arteta goes, I'm kind of indifferent as to whether he stays or gets sacked. I am afraid he's more Benitez/Mourinho then he is a Wenger in terms of football style. That is my major worry. I think he has a good future ahead of him, this might just not be the right job for him.

More importantly, things need to change behind the scenes in terms of our structure. It was borderline criminal giving Cedric a four year contract. Not to mention resigning Luiz, paying that much money for a player who wasn't a household name (Pepe) and signing another Chelsea pensioner.

We brought in all of these transfer gurus and our recruitment is still shit

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Everyone bangs on about our shaky start but if we win our game in hand, we're two points behind Spurs and Liverpool. I know that's a big if but it's also a fact.

Arsenal are down there battling with the relegation fodder.

I have no idea how we lost to that team. fecking Pogba

 

[romufc]

Ole isn't a benchmark, and if Arteta had double the spend then sure, maybe. Ole could recoup Lukaku, Arteta could not recoup Pepe. That's on the people above the manager, so that's why I really don't like comparing one or the other.

Also from the names you mentioned, not a single one of those players swap for a United equivalent barring Auba. which is why Ole picked up a better team. Ole got a team with Lukaku, Pogba, Rashford, Martial who are better midfielders/attackers than what Arsenal had. McT and Fred were still > Elneny. They didn't really have anyone comparable to Matic, bar Xakha who looked like there was no way back for under Emery. Ghendouzi maybe? He was playing OK at the time.

Smalling, Lindelof were both better center backs than anything Arsenal had to offer, and Luke Shaw was a better left back than Arsenal's offerings. DDG was better than Leno and RB I agree, there was a hole for us, which was plugged with AWB.

So Manutd spending £80m on Maguire and £50m on AWB is on the people above not the manager. So why is that not ever part of your argument, but when it comes to Arsenal it is?

No, you are comparing players now because back then, there was alot against Martial who is similar numbers to Laccazette. I would pick Tierney over Shaw.

Fred was not better then because if you look at it that way, Fred only started playing after Ole came in, compare that to when Torreira was very good under Emry and gone downhill since.

Smalling and Lindelof were better Cb but they are nothing special. DDG had more errors in goal that season than Leno.

You are looking at current form of players, not when Ole took over when Martial, Pogba, Shaw couldn't even get into the team and we have Darmian playing RCB for us.

 

[VP89]

So Manutd spending £80m on Maguire and £50m on AWB is on the people above not the manager. So why is that not ever part of your argument, but when it comes to Arsenal it is?

What do you mean? Ole had targets, he got them. Arteta had targets he got them bar one (seems he really wanted Auoar).

Ole needed to perform to show squad improvement and despite a bad first half he turned it around last season.
Arteta is in a similar position now. I'm not being inconsistent here.

No, you are comparing players now because back then, there was alot against Martial who is similar numbers to Laccazette. I would pick Tierney over Shaw.

Probably isn't much between Tierney and Shaw. Why was there a lot against Martial? The caf loved Martial when Jose froze him out. It angered the feck out of them. There were frustrations toward him, but Arsenal fans have a lot of frustration toward Laca too. I don't think we would have wanted to swap out Martial for Laca.

Fred was not better then because if you look at it that way, Fred only started playing after Ole came in, compare that to when Torreira was very good under Emry and gone downhill since.

Think it was reported Toreira wanted to leave England. He was citing a move back to Italy, or to Spain for a while. And I don't think he was that good under Emery, mind.

Smalling and Lindelof were better Cb but they are nothing special. DDG had more errors in goal that season than Leno.

You are looking at current form of players, not when Ole took over when Martial, Pogba, Shaw couldn't even get into the team and we have Darmian playing RCB for us.

I didn't say they were anything special. They are comfortably better than Mustafi and Sokratis though, and DDG is still a better goalkeeper than Leno. By the end of Jose's time, when Ole came, DDG was seen to be the superior keeper it's not even a question.

I'm not looking at current form of anyone. I'm looking at the raw talent Ole had inherited vs the talent Arteta inherited. That's all. And I don't even want to do that, you're making me by crowbarring an Ole vs Arteta debate. I don't give a feck for comparing the two - other people are doing it by suggesting inconsistencies in my evaluation of the two in separate threads, when there is nothing inconsistent. So to be clear again:


I said before the Wolves game that Arteta needs time and he has done some very good things by way of setting defensive aggressiveness, foundations looked good, etc. but the balance has swung way too much toward defence and if he doesn't fix it soon he will probably get the sack.
I said Arteta is in his first full season too. When Ole was in his first full season the evaluation was the same - he needs to pick up because he's not going to be given all the time in the world here.

Ole had a terrific second half to the last campaign, whether Arteta can reverse Arsenal's current fortunes is yet to be seen. He might do, or he might not and get sacked. Who the feck knows.

 

[anant]

Post 2013 he had a decent amount of money yet his recruitment bar a few notable exceptions was shocking and he never fixed real problem areas. Also he let Szcezny and Gnabry slip through the net (which Arsenal are getting quite the free pass for given the shit we get for KDB and Salah).

Make no mistake the rot at Arsenal very much started under his watch.

In the season they bought Ozil, he was the only major signing. The next season when they signed Sanchez, they had a net spend of 80m (sold vermaelen), Then there was this season where they bought just Cech and Elneny. In 6/17, they had a net spend of 90m and in his last season they had a net spend of -5m.

The issue with Arsenal was they were too idealistic in transfer market under Wenger, and that brought about his downfall.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

its pretty clear ole is the better manager based on what we know so far ... but if they were both sacked tomorrow, arteta would get a prem job and ole would be back to norway would be my guess

 

[romufc]

What do you mean? Ole had targets, he got them. Arteta had targets he got them bar one (seems he really wanted Auoar).

Ole needed to perform to show squad improvement and despite a bad first half he turned it around last season.
Arteta is in a similar position now. I'm not being inconsistent here.

Probably isn't much between Tierney and Shaw. Why was there a lot against Martial? The caf loved Martial when Jose froze him out. It angered the feck out of them. There were frustrations toward him, but Arsenal fans have a lot of frustration toward Laca too. I don't think we would have wanted to swap out Martial for Laca.

Think it was reported Toreira wanted to leave England. He was citing a move back to Italy, or to Spain for a while. And I don't think he was that good under Emery, mind.

I didn't say they were anything special. They are comfortably better than Mustafi and Sokratis though, and DDG is still a better goalkeeper than Leno. By the end of Jose's time, when Ole came, DDG was seen to be the superior keeper it's not even a question.

I'm not looking at current form of anyone. I'm looking at the raw talent Ole had inherited vs the talent Arteta inherited. That's all. And I don't even want to do that, you're making me by crowbarring an Ole vs Arteta debate. I don't give a feck for comparing the two - other people are doing it by suggesting inconsistencies in my evaluation of the two in separate threads, when there is nothing inconsistent. So to be clear again:


I said before the Wolves game that Arteta needs time and he has done some very good things by way of setting defensive aggressiveness, foundations looked good, etc. but the balance has swung way too much toward defence and if he doesn't fix it soon he will probably get the sack.
I said Arteta is in his first full season too. When Ole was in his first full season the evaluation was the same - he needs to pick up because he's not going to be given all the time in the world here.

Ole had a terrific second half to the last campaign, whether Arteta can reverse Arsenal's current fortunes is yet to be seen. He might do, or he might not and get sacked. Who the feck knows.

So if they both got their targets, it shouldn't matter how much they spent, that is not up to them like you said, its for the people above.

If you asked Arsenal fans, they all love Lacca too so I dont know where you are going with that.

Well, it was also reported that Lukaku wanted to leave after his first training session so, does it make him a bad player?

Torreira was one of their best players, he was getting in every game.

So Arteta has done well, but Ole hasn't?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That can be your opinion, but it's lunacy to suggest the squad Arteta inherited was as talented as the squad Ole did.

I didn't (as always you only made it up to argue). But the least thing is I expect improvement from a single player should be made by Arteta from Emery, in reality none.

I never said Ole hasn't progressed from Mourinho, so I'm unsure why you are making this statement.

Go read above.

That again, is your opinion. I gave examples of the defence which is better, and a player example who performed better for Arteta last season when he looked frustrated, cut out and ready to leave under Emery.

Conceded 12 goals in 10 games. They are currently on 12th in term of xGA (expected goal against) which worse than us. On top of that they played 5 at the back and when they went to 4 they conceded 2 goals yesterday against a team that don't really score more than a goal per game often. I don't think this is opinion.

But is that good thing in ''your opinion''?

Don't make shit up. Go back to the posts about Xakha performances under Arteta last season. He improved the player, and that's why Xakha played well against good teams, like in the FA Cup final, against us earlier this season and against us last season. He was a better player for Arteta then than he was for Emery, where he was a number 1 villain and scapegoat. He progressed under Areta last season, this article also summarises well from a tactical perspective: https://www.football.london/arsenal-fc/players/granit-xhaka-mikel-arteta-analysis-18084967

How do I make shit up when I took direct quote from Arsenal fans? While you used an article based on 2-3 months football performance to summarise it?

This article also tells you that Xhaka already showed improvement under Emery. https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/nov/04/granit-xhaka-improvement-emery-changes-arsenal

Anyway I dont care for Ole vs Arteta comparisons. And I don't care for stupid opinions like Arteta hasn't improved a single player, when there are facets he did improve upon last season, and players too. AFTV fanbase see some players that did improve, and ex players see the same. E.g. Ian Wright last season: "People like [Lucas] Torreira, [Granit] Xhaka, he's turned Xhaka right around, he's got something out of [Shkodran] Mustafi, he played well against Burnley the other day.

If you think different, thats fine. We can just have different opinions.

You don't care and yet you are the one originally replied a poster who didn't even talk to you. Should have ignore it if you don't care.

 

[RUCK4444]

When they beat us at OT everybody was banging on like it was some brilliant performance and a turning point for them.

I said at the time, it wasn't that good a performance by any stretch of the imagination, we were just truly woeful on the day, couldn't put two passes together and gifted them a penalty. I'm not surprised they've reverted to this form.

That Xhaka - Ceballos midfield is shite, offers nothing. They can't get Auba into the game whatsoever.

 

[VP89]

I didn't (as always you only made it up to argue). But the least thing is I expect improvement from a single player should be made by Arteta from Emery, in reality none.

He improved players last season. He's failing to build on that now.

Conceded 12 goals in 10 games. They are currently on 12th in term of xGA (expected goal against) which worse than us. On top of that they played 5 at the back and when they went to 4 they conceded 2 goals yesterday against a team that don't really score more than a goal per game often. I don't think this is opinion.

But is that good thing in ''your opinion''?

No, there is little good this season. My posts have always been down to the work he did last season and needs time to build on that.

You choose to mention Martial form as improvement from last season when it suits your narrative and with Arteta you focus on players performing this season. Make up your mind.

How do I make shit up when I took direct quote from Arsenal fans? While you used an article based on 2-3 months football performance to summarise it?

This article also tells you that Xhaka already showed improvement under Emery. https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/nov/04/granit-xhaka-improvement-emery-changes-arsenal

You make shit up because you take a match day thread of posters making heated comments and extrapolate from there. As I said, the same forum was praising him in various big games for Arsenal last season.

You don't care and yet you are the one originally replied a poster who didn't even talk to you. Should have ignore it if you don't care.

He quoted me, what are you on about.

 

[redmeister]

I think Arsenal and suffering in the same way we have been since SAF left. We were the last two clubs that had a kind of patriarchal manager, that was the glue that bound all areas of the club together. We both transitioned into more of a head coach role. I know we still call it manager in this country, but the division of labour is very different to 30 years ago. Wengers and SAF's influence was deep in all areas and when someone like that leaves their role, the upheaval is tremendous and I assume why European clubs have been run differently for decades.