Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

[Powderfinger]

The issue is, you could spread this narrative about intangibles for any manager. Remember Ole's "cultural reboot" narrative where he only wanted players who wanted to play for the club, and he had brought some positive vibes back from the dark gloomy days of Mourinho. He was making progress until he wasn't.

That’s true but sometimes you just have to use your brain and make a judgment about which aspects of a narrative are legitimate and which are false. In Ole’s case, I think the positive vibes stuff was legitimate but it also was clear as day that he was completely out of his depth tactically and in terms of knowing what kinds of players to recruit and that the positive vibes were partly due to simply coddling the squad. Arteta has been the opposite on all these dimensions. People who were really watching the club could see that he had very impressive tactical ideas and was trying to get them across, he was recruiting players with the technical and physical qualities to play those tactics, and he was getting rid of players who thought they were bigger than the club or who weren’t serious professionals. All these factors were reasons to back him even as results weren’t as good as hoped.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

A good read for Arteta's tactic this season

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/t...league-scout-report-tactical-analysis-tactics

 

[ayushreddevil9]

He is doing an amazing job this season.

 

[AshRK]

That’s true but sometimes you just have to use your brain and make a judgment about which aspects of a narrative are legitimate and which are false. In Ole’s case, I think the positive vibes stuff was legitimate but it also was clear as day that he was completely out of his depth tactically and in terms of knowing what kinds of players to recruit and that the positive vibes were partly due to simply coddling the squad. Arteta has been the opposite on all these dimensions. People who were really watching the club could see that he had very impressive tactical ideas and was trying to get them across, he was recruiting players with the technical and physical qualities to play those tactics, and he was getting rid of players who thought they were bigger than the club or who weren’t serious professionals. All these factors were reasons to back him even as results weren’t as good as hoped.

It's all fine and good to come and say that now when on top that it was always meant to happen. Truth is Arteta is very fortunate to have survived the job and fair fecking play to the board and even the manager for turning it around (if they have). But let us not change the narrative that he was always doing a good job. Any other top club would have sacked him 3 or 4 times.

 

[GoonerBear]

It's all fine and good to come and say that now when on top that it was always meant to happen. Truth is Arteta is very fortunate to have survived the job and fair fecking play to the board and even the manager for turning it around (if they have). But let us not change the narrative that he was always doing a good job. Any other top club would have sacked him 3 or 4 times.

But has that not been the point of the recent discussion, why people were backing him when we weren't necessarily getting the results or on top?

 

[GoonerGirly]

But has that not been the point of the recent discussion, why people were backing him when we weren't necessarily getting the results or on top?

Exactly. What's clear to me now is that Arteta and the board have always had a plan and are trying to build something. The fact we have such a young squad is testament to that. Didn't they extend his contract last season after we'd lost 3 in a row? At other clubs that would be sack time. I admit I felt like he should be sacked after he bottled top 4 with 3 games in hand.

 

[TwoSheds]

With the way Arsenal are favoured by referees and the FA, I'm starting to believe they could do it. City need to be better if they want to win.

 

[Daydreamer]

It's all fine and good to come and say that now when on top that it was always meant to happen. Truth is Arteta is very fortunate to have survived the job and fair fecking play to the board and even the manager for turning it around (if they have). But let us not change the narrative that he was always doing a good job. Any other top club would have sacked him 3 or 4 times.

This thread is the thick end of 300 pages. It is the polar opposite of suddenly saying it was always meant to happen once Arsenal are on top. It’s a discussion over whether Arteta has been building towards something or not.

 

[Donaldo]

This thread is the thick end of 300 pages. It is the polar opposite of suddenly saying it was always meant to happen once Arsenal are on top. It’s a discussion over whether Arteta has been building towards something or not.

Comprehension isn't his strong suit, you're expecting too much.

 

[GoonerInPeace]

With the way Arsenal are favoured by referees and the FA, I'm starting to believe they could do it. City need to be better if they want to win.

What favour? Bamford was into Gabriels back with more force than Odegaard was into Erikson.

It was also not a red card because there was literally no contact when Gabriel 'kicked' Bamford. Quite like Patrick Vieria's kick on RVN that missed by 5 foot.

 

[The Corinthian]

With the way Arsenal are favoured by referees and the FA, I'm starting to believe they could do it. City need to be better if they want to win.

That’s two weeks in a row they’ve had some crazy decisions go their way. One would hope their luck would run out but who can tell with the misapplication of VAR and substandard refereeing.

 

[WeePat]

Look, fair is fair. We had a lot of fun bantering Arteta when things were going terribly for him, it's only fair to credit him when his team is producing great football and showing signs of the elusive consistency we're all looking for. It's been an amazing start to the season for Arsenal, and it can no longer just be dismissed as a favourable early schedule.

I hope everyone's right and they start tumbling down the table, but they've shown no signs of that happening any time soon. Every week I tune into their game hoping this is the week the wheels come off and they always churn out a win, even when they don't play particularly well.

Very annoying but you have to respect the form they're showing.

 

[TwoSheds]

What favour? Bamford was into Gabriels back with more force than Odegaard was into Erikson.

It was also not a red card because there was literally no contact when Gabriel 'kicked' Bamford. Quite like Patrick Vieria's kick on RVN that missed by 5 foot.

Every week. And no scrutiny from the media.

 

[Nish115]

That’s two weeks in a row they’ve had some crazy decisions go their way. One would hope their luck would run out but who can tell with the misapplication of VAR and substandard refereeing.

What was wrong with the Leeds game? Do tell.

 

[The Corinthian]

What was wrong with the Leeds game? Do tell.

Bamford disallowed goal.

Gabriel red card for kicking Bamford and a penalty should have stood too.

Just awful inconsistent refereeing.

 

[Powderfinger]

Bamford disallowed goal.

Gabriel red card for kicking Bamford and a penalty should have stood too.

Just awful inconsistent refereeing.

The VAR replay clearly showed that Gabriel's foot didn't make contact with Bamford at all, that Bamford simulated that contact in an Oscar-worthy performance, and that all this occurred after Bamford blatantly fouled Gabriel by shoving him in the back without any attempt to get the ball. You really think a red card and penalty on Gabriel was the right decision for that sequence of events?

 

[The Corinthian]

The VAR replay clearly showed that Gabriel's foot didn't make contact with Bamford at all, that Bamford simulated that contact in an Oscar-worthy performance, and that all this occurred after Bamford blatantly fouled Gabriel by shoving him in the back without any attempt to get the ball. You really think a red card and penalty on Gabriel was the right decision for that sequence of events?

What about the Bamford disallowed goal?

I don't think it was a foul on Gabriel - Gabriel went over as soon as he felt Bamford on his back. He then tried kicking out on Bamford, the contact may not have been substantial, but the intent is clear as day and he did make actual contact. It's a red card and penalty all day long and another example of VAR's inconsistencies.

 

[AshRK]

This thread is the thick end of 300 pages. It is the polar opposite of suddenly saying it was always meant to happen once Arsenal are on top. It’s a discussion over whether Arteta has been building towards something or not.

Again, it's all hypothetical right now to say Arteta was in fact building towards something. He had major doubters from arsenal fans themselves, to the point had he been sacked , no one would have raised eyebrows. Everything is clicking this season so fair enough and I did acknowledge that in my post but one cannot sit here pretend he was doing a good job based on the results delivered in the last 2 and a half season.

 

[Lincm]

What about the Bamford disallowed goal?

I don't think it was a foul on Gabriel - Gabriel went over as soon as he felt Bamford on his back. He then tried kicking out on Bamford, the contact may not have been substantial, but the intent is clear as day and he did make actual contact. It's a red card and penalty all day long and another example of VAR's inconsistencies.

It's a red card all day. It is not a penalty. Because they would consider the foul by bamford first.

 

[Powderfinger]

What about the Bamford disallowed goal?

I don't think it was a foul on Gabriel - Gabriel went over as soon as he felt Bamford on his back. He then tried kicking out on Bamford, the contact may not have been substantial, but the intent is clear as day and he did make actual contact. It's a red card and penalty all day long and another example of VAR's inconsistencies.

You don't think that was a foul on Bamford when he intentionally runs into/shoves Gabriel without any attempt to go for the ball? Once its a foul it can't be a penalty. And its not clear at all that Gabriel's foot made contact with Bamford. If it did, it was incredibly minor.

When you find yourself arguing that incredibly dubious reds should be given out just because you don't want that team to win and you want players like Bamford to be rewarded for faking injuries and trying to get opponents sent off, you've lost the plot.

 

[The Corinthian]

You don't think that was a foul on Bamford when he intentionally runs into/shoves Gabriel without any attempt to go for the ball? Once its a foul it can't be a penalty. And its not clear at all that Gabriel's foot made contact with Bamford. If it did, it was incredibly minor.

When you find yourself arguing that incredibly dubious reds should be given out just because you don't want that team to win and you want players like Bamford to be rewarded for faking injuries and trying to get opponents sent off, you've lost the plot.

What about the Bamford disallowed goal?

And again - I don't think it was a foul on Gabriel.

You can bleat all you want, but your team has been given extreme fortune in your last two games.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

but one cannot sit here pretend he was doing a good job based on the results delivered in the last 2 and a half season.

In the Amazon documentary it is already well documented that the board appreciated his good work since his appointment and his work was not judged only based on result in the field. Josh Kroenke spoke enough about this in the documentary already. This is called vision.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-kroenke-interview-news-arteta-25398945

"Arteta's job was never in danger
At one stage last season, Arsenal went seven Premier League games without a win, suffering home defeats to Wolves and Burnley.
The Gunners also embarrassingly lost their first three league fixtures of the current season to Brentford, Chelsea and Manchester City.
Despite their occasional dips in form, Kroenke insists the board have never considered sacking Arteta. He said: "There were never any doubts on my part.
"There was always going to be a tough transition. And as long as we understood that and stayed together there was never any doubt in my mind."
"There were only words of encouragement going on behind the scenes... with the power of positivity, we’ve come through it and everyone is stronger for it."

 

[AshRK]

In the Amazon documentary it is already well documented that the board appreciated his good work since his appointment and his work was not judged only based on result in the field. Josh Kroenke spoke enough about this in the documentary already. This is called vision.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-kroenke-interview-news-arteta-25398945

"Arteta's job was never in danger
At one stage last season, Arsenal went seven Premier League games without a win, suffering home defeats to Wolves and Burnley.
The Gunners also embarrassingly lost their first three league fixtures of the current season to Brentford, Chelsea and Manchester City.
Despite their occasional dips in form, Kroenke insists the board have never considered sacking Arteta. He said: "There were never any doubts on my part.
"There was always going to be a tough transition. And as long as we understood that and stayed together there was never any doubt in my mind."
"There were only words of encouragement going on behind the scenes... with the power of positivity, we’ve come through it and everyone is stronger for it."

Yeah read my original post again, I already said fair fecking play to the board. But still doesn't mean Arteta was doing a great job result wise for 2 and a half season.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Douglas Luiz just renewed his contract with Aston Villa. Now I am not sure who Edu will target as back up to Partey. Tielemans is still linked.

 

[Changeisgood]

It was never a penalty but the red card should have stood imo. Incredibly silly move by Gabriel and I would consider letting him sit the next game out just for that let alone his rather erratic performances.

Arteta still has things to learn. The one thing Leeds did so much better in the second half is press our players high up to the point even our the more calmer players like Tomi and Saliba could not handle it. Good thing Leeds was pretty inept in the final third but it took Arteta 20 minutes to figure out a new gameplan was needed along with changing some tired legs. Way too slow to make the necessary changes. We were lucky we were not behind at that point. Do that against Man City and you are behind.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He's done better than I thought/predicted at one point. He's due that admission from me (I'm sure it means a great deal to him).

That said, he could easily be back in a proper Lego/clown/whatever category before this season ends.

In which case, I will deny ever having made the admission.

 

[BurgerVan]

What about the Bamford disallowed goal?

And again - I don't think it was a foul on Gabriel.

You can bleat all you want, but your team has been given extreme fortune in your last two games.

Fortunate last 2 games? Leeds I grant you.

Are you counting the League game with Liverpool where they barely got into our half in the second 45 or the Europa game on the fake pitch, where the home team were going for a record 15th straight European win? Good fortune comes and goes, and the facts are, the best team doesn't always win, as Leeds saw yesterday, and as we saw at Old Trafford last month where your opinion on Bamfords disallowed goal holds true for the minimal contact for the Martinelli goal.

With respect, were Utd fortunate to just about win away from home, coming from behind, and then score a 94th minute winner against the 7th best team in Cyprus? Maybe.

Despite what I read from the odd one or two on here, you can't fluke 12 wins from 13 games.

 

[BurgerVan]

Douglas Luiz just renewed his contract with Aston Villa. Now I am not sure who Edu will target as back up to Partey. Tielemans is still linked.

I don't understand why Luiz would do that, Villa is a sinking ship under the current management and he knows bigger clubs want him. Baffling.

 

[GoonerBear]

What about the Bamford disallowed goal?

And again - I don't think it was a foul on Gabriel.

You can bleat all you want, but your team has been given extreme fortune in your last two games.

There was also an offside in the build up to the incident for Saliba giving away the penalty, so we got unfairly punished there.

 

[Nish115]

What about the Bamford disallowed goal?

I don't think it was a foul on Gabriel - Gabriel went over as soon as he felt Bamford on his back. He then tried kicking out on Bamford, the contact may not have been substantial, but the intent is clear as day and he did make actual contact. It's a red card and penalty all day long and another example of VAR's inconsistencies.

It very obviously isn't a penalty and red card all day long when basically nobody thinks so apart from you. No pundit. No referee opinion. No forum really.

The Bamford one was soft, that was the only decision really that was tight. But equally, there was a player offside in the build up anyway.

 

[GoonerGirly]

I definitely understand rival fans' ongoing disbelief and unwillingness to believe that this is the new Arsenal. I can barely believe it myself - 10 games in and we are 4 points ahead of Man City. After the painful disappointment of missing top 4 last season, I never thought we'd start the season like this.

But I think to dismiss what we've been doing as an "easy start" or "lucky" is really inaccurate. You don't win 9 out of 10 games by fluke or accident in this league. And the Leeds game IMO really cemented this new-found resilience we have. Yes, we were fortunate with the penalty miss (which shouldn't have even been a penalty anyway), and on another day maybe Gabriel's red card and penalty would have stood. A game as frantic as that was always going to have controversy and Leeds pressed us so hard, a shame for them they couldn't finish the plethora of chances they had. But while we didn't play well and didn't get going in that 2nd half at all, I am proud (and perhaps a bit surprised) at our ability to get through the game with all 3 points. This was easily a game we would have lost/drawn in recent times, Leeds were that dominant in that 2nd half.

 

[danamann]

Nothing will ever convince me that Arteta is a good manager. After all the time and money spent and 3 years of underperforming, they finally look like they assembled a decent squad to finish top 4. But when the pressure is on he will fail as he has already shown plenty of times in his tenure.

 

[Nish115]

Nothing will ever convince me that Arteta is a good manager. After all the time and money spent and 3 years of underperforming, they finally look like they assembled a decent squad to finish top 4. But when the pressure is on he will fail as he has already shown plenty of times in his tenure.

This is such a strange attitude to have.

Where has 3 years of underperforming come from btw? 1.5 years maybe i'd allow people (Although even that has it's own stories). But, can you explain 3 years?

I'm sure he has done nothing to help assemble this squad either..

He's won a trophy, more than 90% of managers.

 

[Daydreamer]

Nothing will ever convince me that Arteta is a good manager. After all the time and money spent and 3 years of underperforming, they finally look like they assembled a decent squad to finish top 4. But when the pressure is on he will fail as he has already shown plenty of times in his tenure.

I’ve never understood proclaiming that nothing will ever convince you of something. Is the inability to potentially change your mind in the light evidence viewed as some sort of virtue?

 

[danamann]

I’ve never understood proclaiming that nothing will ever convince you of something. Is the inability to potentially change your mind in the light evidence viewed as some sort of virtue?

Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.

 

[Rajiztar]

Look, fair is fair. We had a lot of fun bantering Arteta when things were going terribly for him, it's only fair to credit him when his team is producing great football and showing signs of the elusive consistency we're all looking for. It's been an amazing start to the season for Arsenal, and it can no longer just be dismissed as a favourable early schedule.

I hope everyone's right and they start tumbling down the table, but they've shown no signs of that happening any time soon. Every week I tune into their game hoping this is the week the wheels come off and they always churn out a win, even when they don't play particularly well.

Very annoying but you have to respect the form they're showing.

Leeds played well to be fair to arsenal. They just didn't crumble usually they did in those situations. And of course football is confident sport once you start winning games things will go your way mostly.

I think they will struggle with coming up schedule.

Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.

Martinelli was injured often than fit. One of those players always in treatment table last few seasons. Arteta played him whenever he was available and fit.

Other than that your arguments were valid. He was backed by their board only in hope not any clear indicator to think he can challenge for top honours. He got the chance now to prove he can challenge top teams for top honours. Have to wait how he develops his team.This season he is very good so for.

 

[Daydreamer]

Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.

I’m referring to any evidence. If there is nothing that can possibly convince you of something, then no amount of evidence to the contrary could potentially change your view. Which… is odd.

The discussion has focused on whether or not Arteta was making progress that hadn’t been reflected in results (leaving the fact that he won a trophy beating City and Chelsea along the way to one side for now). There are reasonable arguments for and against that.

There’s also the argument that you seemed to be making, that managers should be judged on their results and that Arteta simply hasn’t been good enough in this regard. Once again, fair enough.

But now Arsenal have won 12/13 games to make the best start in our club’s entire history… suddenly our good results are not down to Arteta. But our bad results somehow still are because of Arteta.

As an argument, it’s all over the place.

 

[Nish115]

Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.

This is just odd. Us being top of the league has nothing to do with Arteta? My word..

You're going to hold him not coming close to top 4 in his first season down to him when he picked up the team in 11th place?

He never criminally underused Martinelli. What a clueless comment. Martinelli would play, then get injured. So, instead he took him out the team to work on his physical side, which is now paying off.

You must have no idea how bad it was with Emery, it was the worst i've ever see the club in every aspect.

In fact everything you said was just someone who has no idea tbh.

 

[Donaldo]

Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.

Frothing at the mouth. Have to love it.

 

[danamann]

This is just odd. Us being top of the league has nothing to do with Arteta? My word..

You're going to hold him not coming close to top 4 in his first season down to him when he picked up the team in 11th place?

He never criminally underused Martinelli. What a clueless comment. Martinelli would play, then get injured. So, instead he took him out the team to work on his physical side, which is now paying off.

You must have no idea how bad it was with Emery, it was the worst i've ever see the club in every aspect.

In fact everything you said was just someone who has no idea tbh.

This is just not true. He was playing regularly under Emery. Then Arteta took over and didn't play him for a long time until he had to. Then he immediately got injured. I thought as an Arsenal fan you should know better.