Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

GoonerGirly said:
Liverpool have scored 20 goals this season - only we and City have scored more (Tottenham have also scored 20). For comparison, United has scored 13 (and you have both played a game less than us, City and Tottenham). Scoring is not Liverpool's problem, they have too much attacking talent not to create chances. It's their defence and midfield this season that has not been performing well.

I regret not waking up for this - seemed like a cracking game. I found it interesting that Arteta started Tomi at RB ahead of Tierney (Zinchenko is injured). Not sure if that was a tactical decision or just protecting Tierney who played mid-week? Perhaps a bit of both.
I came into it expecting to drop points because Liverpool's had our number for years now. Haven't watched the game yet but from what I hear we did well to control the game for the most part. What a great start to the week. :D
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That 9-0 against Bournemouth has skewed numbers imo
 
Very impressed by him. He had his doubters but their shrewd signings and their style of play is definitely to be admired. Our lego Pep is better though.
 
I felt they played well but at the same time got super lucky on key moments. Goal in the first minute, goal in the last minute of the first half - the majority of which Liverpool dominated.

Then second half Liverpool started well and tied it up - until that soft penalty took their wings away. At 3-2 it was all Arsenal. Overall, it wasn't as dominating a performance as the media paints it, and it could have easily been a draw.

They just have an element of jamieness about them
 
Suedesi said:
I felt they played well but at the same time got super lucky on key moments. Goal in the first minute, goal in the last minute of the first half - the majority of which Liverpool dominated.

Then second half Liverpool started well and tied it up - until that soft penalty took their wings away. At 3-2 it was all Arsenal. Overall, it wasn't as dominating a performance as the media paints it, and it could have easily been a draw.

They just have an element of jamieness about them
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Carragher? Redknapp?
 
Suedesi said:
I felt they played well but at the same time got super lucky on key moments. Goal in the first minute, goal in the last minute of the first half - the majority of which Liverpool dominated.

Then second half Liverpool started well and tied it up - until that soft penalty took their wings away. At 3-2 it was all Arsenal. Overall, it wasn't as dominating a performance as the media paints it, and it could have easily been a draw.

They just have an element of jamieness about them
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Liverpool were slightly the better side in the first half but Arsenal really dominated the second half. They had all the play immediately after the break, Liverpool equalized against the run of play, and then it was all Arsenal for 20+ minutes until the penalty. Liverpool had one shot (the equalizer) in the second half until the 97th minute.

It wasn't a dominating performance by any means but Arsenal were clearly the better side against a Liverpool that had turned a bit of a corner recently and competed very hard. Liverpool certainly aren't the same team as last year but neither was this Liverpool the same side that was stumbling in an injury laden funk through August and early September. It was a high level match both in terms of tempo and tactics.
 
Powderfinger said:
Liverpool were slightly the better side in the first half but Arsenal really dominated the second half. They had all the play immediately after the break, Liverpool equalized against the run of play, and then it was all Arsenal for 20+ minutes until the penalty. Liverpool had one shot (the equalizer) in the second half until the 97th minute.

It wasn't a dominating performance by any means but Arsenal were clearly the better side against a Liverpool that had turned a bit of a corner recently and competed very hard. Liverpool certainly aren't the same team as last year but neither was this Liverpool the same side that was stumbling in an injury laden funk through August and early September. It was a high level match both in terms of tempo and tactics.
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I don't think Liverpool have turned the corner. Granted I don't see ALL of their matches, but I've noticed the same patterns and mistakes in defense (Trent - sloppy, Van Dijk - seems like a different player from the dominant CB of past seasons), midfield has lost legs (Henderson, Thiago) and then a lacklustre Salah who's being going on through a long post CAF final loss blues. Also the injury to Diaz didn't help. Darwin is a dud. Not the same intensity, very sloppy overall - in the runup to the penalty, LFC had 5 chances to clear the ball and they couldn't do it, they are so panicky, clumsy and unsure at the back, it's beyond funny

Anyways, good win, I think Arsenal are def on the up, here's hoping the wheels fall off soon :-)
 
Suedesi said:
I don't think Liverpool have turned the corner. Granted I don't see ALL of their matches, but I've noticed the same patterns and mistakes in defense (Trent - sloppy, Van Dijk - seems like a different player from the dominant CB of past seasons), midfield has lost legs (Henderson, Thiago) and then a lacklustre Salah who's being going on through a long post CAF final loss blues. Also the injury to Diaz didn't help. Darwin is a dud. Not the same intensity, very sloppy overall - in the runup to the penalty, LFC had 5 chances to clear the ball and they couldn't do it, they are so panicky, clumsy and unsure at the back, it's beyond funny

Anyways, good win, I think Arsenal are def on the up, here's hoping the wheels fall off soon :-)
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Fair enough, "turn a corner" might have been too strong. Let's hope they haven't (and won't) at least! :)
 
Bebestation said:
With all the bullying fans give Maguire - it’s quite crazy how many things fans get wrong as well.

Arteta was ridiculed here for ages and is now proving a lot of us wrong.
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A lot of the posters haven't got an excuse either, I've spent the last couple years of in this thread (and any other football thread) teaching people, but like an unruly teenager some refuse to learn, or sit up straight.

I've posted positively about ETH this season as well, so United fans should feel very reassured
 
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Bebestation said:
With all the bullying fans give Maguire - it’s quite crazy how many things fans get wrong as well.

Arteta was ridiculed here for ages and is now proving a lot of us wrong.
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The issue is, when you serve up 2 and a half years of shit, are people not going to comment on it?

People aren't going to caveat every post they make with "having said that there's a possibility he'll get Arsenal playing well in his 4th season". They're going to comment on what is happening at the time and not pretend they can see into a crystal ball whereby he eventually finally gets a top 4 finish and that negates everything that's happening in the present. The issue with Arteta is he had no previous track record for fans to point to to suggest he's a good manager, it was pure hope.
 
Dominos said:
The issue is, when you serve up 2 and a half years of shit, are people not going to comment on it?

People aren't going to caveat every post they make with "having said that there's a possibility he'll get Arsenal playing well in his 4th season". They're going to comment on what is happening at the time and not pretend they can see into a crystal ball whereby he eventually finally gets a top 4 finish and that negates everything that's happening in the present. The issue with Arteta is he had no previous track record for fans to point to to suggest he's a good manager, it was pure hope.
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That's not true. My post above was tongue and cheek, but I made a lot of really good arguments over the past few years in this thread as to why a lot of the people on here were wrong about him. I don't blame anyone for not agreeing with me at the time, but my position wasn't a random hopeful one, but rather thoughtful analysis from a world class footie poster at the peak of his powers, outperforming his xg

Admittedly a lot of the early negative stuff in the thread was more banter against a rival manager.
 
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Dominos said:
The issue is, when you serve up 2 and a half years of shit, are people not going to comment on it?

People aren't going to caveat every post they make with "having said that there's a possibility he'll get Arsenal playing well in his 4th season". They're going to comment on what is happening at the time and not pretend they can see into a crystal ball whereby he eventually finally gets a top 4 finish and that negates everything that's happening in the present. The issue with Arteta is he had no previous track record for fans to point to to suggest he's a good manager, it was pure hope.
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That's not really true. There were signs he was improving Arsenal. We were in a terrible state when he took over. He got us defensively more organised and won us an FA Cup in his first 6 months. Start to the second season was very poor, but he improved significantly in the second half of the season. An improvement of 5 points over the prior season. Last season showed an improvement in style of play for periods of games although we parked the bus after going a goal up. This wasn't by manager direction though because you could see him urging players to transition up the pitch. We fought really hard as a team to get 8 more points and 3 positions higher.

I was all for sacking him in Season 2. But after realising our second half of the season was improved I changed my mind. Season 3 I became onboard the train much more because you could see he was building a system and team ethic. But I certainly didn't expect to be playing this well and getting this many points. It's a very pleasant surprise.

There's several lessons I'm taking from this. The first one is you need to admit failing players with bad attitudes aren't the solution to your problems and your in a lowly league position largely because of this. The second is manager power should always veto player power. Arteta has been backed to get rid of personalities he doesn't rate and players he doesn't rate. I didn't really like Auba, Guen and Pepe being shifted but they had to go for squad cohesion. If you look historically, both Guardiola and SAF have been similarly backed. Getting rid of Ronaldinho, Deco, Beckham, Paul Ince would be unthinkable at many clubs. But the clubs backed the manager. Everyone who's left buys into the team ethos. This means they will run out of their skin for their manager, both pressing relentlessly and fighting every duel to do everything they can to win it. Every player knows if you don't buy in, you don't play and you might get shifted.
 
Dominos said:
The issue is, when you serve up 2 and a half years of shit, are people not going to comment on it?

People aren't going to caveat every post they make with "having said that there's a possibility he'll get Arsenal playing well in his 4th season". They're going to comment on what is happening at the time and not pretend they can see into a crystal ball whereby he eventually finally gets a top 4 finish and that negates everything that's happening in the present. The issue with Arteta is he had no previous track record for fans to point to to suggest he's a good manager, it was pure hope.
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It wasn't 2 and a half years of shit though, that's the thing. If you look at things in black and white, you might think that, but there's a reason why the majority of Arsenal fans were willing to back him, there's a reason why the crowd were enthused at the stadium again, why even folk like Rio was going to the training ground and got a sense that everyone at the club was aligned and pulling in the same direction. Even the documentary that many were expecting to be an absolute car crash despite having a few cringe moments has left Arteta coming out positively in it.
 
Dominos said:
The issue is, when you serve up 2 and a half years of shit, are people not going to comment on it?

People aren't going to caveat every post they make with "having said that there's a possibility he'll get Arsenal playing well in his 4th season". They're going to comment on what is happening at the time and not pretend they can see into a crystal ball whereby he eventually finally gets a top 4 finish and that negates everything that's happening in the present. The issue with Arteta is he had no previous track record for fans to point to to suggest he's a good manager, it was pure hope.
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As per posts above, this is a load of rubbish really.

He had a very had 3 month spell, beyond that he had constant progression.
 
Suedesi said:
I felt they played well but at the same time got super lucky on key moments. Goal in the first minute, goal in the last minute of the first half - the majority of which Liverpool dominated.

Then second half Liverpool started well and tied it up - until that soft penalty took their wings away. At 3-2 it was all Arsenal. Overall, it wasn't as dominating a performance as the media paints it, and it could have easily been a draw.

They just have an element of jamieness about them
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Scoring in the first minute and last minute of a half isn't luck. You can score your goals anytime.

As for the penalty. Ive been them both given and waved away. But the fact is when you are on the attack and getting the ball into the opposition box you can draw these type of half fouls and potentially get the benefit of any doubt, which is what happened. Infact our players had 46 touches in Liverpools box which ranks second to Man City getting 48 in 2019, this is for the entire Klopp era.

These are important statistics as it highlights how we want to play. Touches in the opposition box, touches in the final third. This is all indicative if a high press high pressure style of football we are trying to play, and it has to be said, we are executing it more often that we are getting it wrong.

We got it wrong at Old Trafford though. Badly. When Saka scored, I thought we were growing into the case, but we didnt manage the ball well enough chasing the second and the positioning of Saliba and Gabriel wasn't right.

I think Arteta is a genuine manager, not just a player turned manager like Ole, Frankie and Stevie.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
The revisionism was inevitable I guess with a good phase of results, but the arrogance it's coming with is quite funny.
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Agree with this, people are talking like he's won the league and made his doubters look like a fool. This time last year Chelsea were top and the year before it was Spurs, they came nowhere near winning it
 
Nish115 said:
As per posts above, this is a load of rubbish really.

He had a very had 3 month spell, beyond that he had constant progression.
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Easy to progress from the 8th position he took them down to given the money he spent
 
Rooney in Paris said:
The revisionism was inevitable I guess with a good phase of results, but the arrogance it's coming with is quite funny.
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No revisionism, I've been pretty consistent with my stance in this thread, and I've consistently outlined the reasons for my stance. You might say it's due to my crush (partly true), but I've got a very good track record on here when it comes to assessing managers.
Arrogant? Maybe, Warranted? Absolutely :p
 
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GoonerInPeace said:
No he wouldnt. Arteta would back himself at Arsenal before giving up a potential legacy at Arsenal.

he has a burning ambition to carve out his own name and reputation.

if he was so mentally soft that he would chase the easy gig at City, then he wouldn't be able to do what he is currently doing at Arsenal in changing the culture from top to bottom.

If City offered him the job as Pep's replacement City would get a very kind no thank you
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I think people forget that Arteta doesn't actually have a connection with City, he has a connection with Pep, who'd necessarily be gone in this scenario, and with a handful of City players from his time there, some of whom have left and the rest aren't getting any younger. There are not a lot of sentimental factors drawing him back there, compared to his connection with Arsenal.

So what else can City offer that we can't? A somewhat higher transfer and salary budget are about the sum of it, but it's being shown that under full KSE ownership Arsenal are not going to be slouches in the transfer market either, and I highly doubt we'll be losing our best players for financial reasons, now several renewals are coming up we'll probably see that we aren't afraid to spend big on wages either so long as the circumstances are right and totally different to before - i.e. key players with years of their career ahead of them
 
Wengerista said:
So what else can City offer that we can't?
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They can offer more money and 100% guranteed success, so quite a lot.

That said, it's clear Saka loves Arsenal, and is invested in the project, and about to sign a 5 year deal from what I hear. So I don't think he is going anywhere in the near/mid future.
 
Wengerista said:
I think people forget that Arteta doesn't actually have a connection with City, he has a connection with Pep, who'd necessarily be gone in this scenario, and with a handful of City players from his time there, some of whom have left and the rest aren't getting any younger. There are not a lot of sentimental factors drawing him back there, compared to his connection with Arsenal.

So what else can City offer that we can't? A somewhat higher transfer and salary budget are about the sum of it, but it's being shown that under full KSE ownership Arsenal are not going to be slouches in the transfer market either, and I highly doubt we'll be losing our best players for financial reasons, now several renewals are coming up we'll probably see that we aren't afraid to spend big on wages either so long as the circumstances are right and totally different to before - i.e. key players with years of their career ahead of them
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A head coach/manager just like any player or employee out there, may want to work in different clubs, different countries for new challenges. I don't see any reason why Arteta will not do the same. Ancelotti is a very good example and he has an extremely successful coaching career in different clubs.

One of the biggest mistake Wenger made in my opinion is not moved to Real Madrid when Arsenal had no fund to improve the squad and had to sell our best player every season to balance the book.
 
ThierryFabregas said:
That's not really true. There were signs he was improving Arsenal. We were in a terrible state when he took over. He got us defensively more organised and won us an FA Cup in his first 6 months. Start to the second season was very poor, but he improved significantly in the second half of the season. An improvement of 5 points over the prior season. Last season showed an improvement in style of play for periods of games although we parked the bus after going a goal up. This wasn't by manager direction though because you could see him urging players to transition up the pitch. We fought really hard as a team to get 8 more points and 3 positions higher.

I was all for sacking him in Season 2. But after realising our second half of the season was improved I changed my mind. Season 3 I became onboard the train much more because you could see he was building a system and team ethic. But I certainly didn't expect to be playing this well and getting this many points. It's a very pleasant surprise.
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GoonerBear said:
It wasn't 2 and a half years of shit though, that's the thing. If you look at things in black and white, you might think that, but there's a reason why the majority of Arsenal fans were willing to back him, there's a reason why the crowd were enthused at the stadium again, why even folk like Rio was going to the training ground and got a sense that everyone at the club was aligned and pulling in the same direction. Even the documentary that many were expecting to be an absolute car crash despite having a few cringe moments has left Arteta coming out positively in it.
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Nish115 said:
As per posts above, this is a load of rubbish really.

He had a very had 3 month spell, beyond that he had constant progression.
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Arsenal had finished 5th with 70 points the season before Arteta took over. Emery got off to a bad to the next season and left them 4 points behind 5th, and 7 points behind 4th in December when Arteta took over. When Arteta took over the points gap between themselves and 4th/5th increased. Now I'd give him a pass for this part-season, but revisiting this season is important for context. It's bordering on impossible not to improve them in subsequent seasons from this position, which was 8th place with 56 points. They had gone from the 5th best side and underperformed hugely on their way to a midtable finish, no one would expect them to remain midtable

Arteta's 1st full season he managed to improve them by 5 points, and finish 8th again, I find it absurd that this is somehow a clear sign of a great manager building something great. All we knew at the time was Arsenal had a laughably shit season under a manager who had no proven record as a manager prior. Getting excited for this "improvement" would be like United fans getting excited if ETH gets us a 5 points improvement on last season's calamity of a season. It's a rival forum and Arsenal had just had consecutive 8th placed finishes, you'll have to forgive the Caf for not heaping praise on Arteta for such monumental progression.

From there Arteta spent £150m in the summer for a further 8 point increase on his way to a 5th placed finish on 69 points. So, after 2 and a half years he managed to finish on less points than Emery managed in his only full season, and still has no top 4 finish to show for it. Maybe what they lack in substance they made up for in style with great attacking play? Nope, 5th highest xG in the league and a tendency to park the bus whenever they go a goal up.

It was all progression from a very low starting point. If a person's view was "listen, it's all a bit shit to watch but we're slowly improving and I'm willing to continue the slow progression for as long as it lasts, if we ever stop progressing then we'll have to pull the plug", fair enough. But let's not pretend there's anything weird about rival fans having a chuckle at a manager finishing 8th twice.
 
Dominos said:
Arsenal had finished 5th with 70 points the season before Arteta took over. Emery got off to a bad to the next season and left them 4 points behind 5th, and 7 points behind 4th in December when Arteta took over. When Arteta took over the points gap between themselves and 4th/5th increased. Now I'd give him a pass for this part-season, but revisiting this season is important for context. It's bordering on impossible not to improve them in subsequent seasons from this position, which was 8th place with 56 points. They had gone from the 5th best side and underperformed hugely on their way to a midtable finish, no one would expect them to remain midtable

Arteta's 1st full season he managed to improve them by 5 points, and finish 8th again, I find it absurd that this is somehow a clear sign of a great manager building something great. All we knew at the time was Arsenal had a laughably shit season under a manager who had no proven record as a manager prior. Getting excited for this "improvement" would be like United fans getting excited if ETH gets us a 5 points improvement on last season's calamity of a season. It's a rival forum and Arsenal had just had consecutive 8th placed finishes, you'll have to forgive the Caf for not heaping praise on Arteta for such monumental progression.

From there Arteta spent £150m in the summer for a further 8 point increase on his way to a 5th placed finish on 69 points. So, after 2 and a half years he managed to finish on less points than Emery managed in his only full season, and still has no top 4 finish to show for it. Maybe what they lack in substance they made up for in style with great attacking play? Nope, 5th highest xG in the league and a tendency to park the bus whenever they go a goal up.

It was all progression from a very low starting point. If a person's view was "listen, it's all a bit shit to watch but we're slowly improving and I'm willing to continue the slow progression for as long as it lasts, if we ever stop progressing then we'll have to pull the plug", fair enough. But let's not pretend there's anything weird about rival fans having a chuckle at a manager finishing 8th twice.
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When the club is thoroughly broken at every level - too much player power and terrible attitude within the side, untalented aging roster, corruption among the footballing directors, poisonous atmosphere in the stadium - then progression shouldn't be simply measured in where you finish and with how many points. You can measure it that way, of course, but you'd be missing the most important things happening at the club.

With the exception of the low point in fall 2020, when Arteta really was deservedly close to the sack, Arsenal supporters have been able to see a lot of progress in the attitude of the team, the development and integration of young players, the patterns of play on the field, and also the environment in the stadium. The results on the field were not as good as many people hoped. But the broader process of turning around the club looked good. Rival fans simply didn't want to see it because its more fun to just beat your rival with a simple stick ("Har har you finished 8th twice").

I think there's a good chance you'll see some version of this yourself with Ten Hag. You could very easily finish 6th again this year with a point total around 62-65, leaving some foolish people to say "He's hardly improved us at all. He's worse than Ole. If you don't get top four you get the sack, we need to keep up standards, etc etc." But you could have those results and still be making tremendous progress as a club if he is changing the culture within the squad, marginalizing the malcontents, teaching everybody to play a different style of football, and getting the supporters excited again.
 
GoonerBear said:
It wasn't 2 and a half years of shit though, that's the thing. If you look at things in black and white, you might think that, but there's a reason why the majority of Arsenal fans were willing to back him, there's a reason why the crowd were enthused at the stadium again, why even folk like Rio was going to the training ground and got a sense that everyone at the club was aligned and pulling in the same direction. Even the documentary that many were expecting to be an absolute car crash despite having a few cringe moments has left Arteta coming out positively in it.
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I like Arteta unlike many on the forum but I think that first two years at Arsenal was nowhere near the narrative you have described. Incremental improvements in performances is correct but if Arteta had the same trajectory at any top four club not just in England but Europe he would have been sacked without hesitation of it even being considered a questionable decision.

Arteta has benefited from two things the which are a young squad where the expectations have been fairly minimal and a very transparent board member in Kronkes son who has had patience in the transition. This is a situation where Arteta owes Arsenal more so than the club owing him.
 
Shame that Arsenal v City game is postponed this week due to PSV game moved, would have been interesting to see how they fared.
 
Intangible and tangibles. The intangibles cannot be measured in numbers. The intangibles Arteta has improved is getting rid of player power and formatting a team culture with himself as the undisputed boss. Any player not putting in the effort required wouldnt be tolerated in the present Arsenal. Where as prior players dragging thier feet would

Recruitment has been sensational in the past two seasons. Tomiyasu, Ramsdale, Zinchenko, White, Odegaard, Jesus have been amazing signings. Tavares will likely be sold for a profit given he is going alright in Marseille, jury well still out on ASL. Getting rid of the high earing underperformers, PEA, Bellerin, Kolsinac, Torriera, Guendouzi , and Pepe is likely to be the last one. He has transformed the squad.

Develpoment of young players. Martinelli & Saka doing wonders, ESR and Nketiah more than capable players with a good future.

This has all been going on in the background even despite the consecutive 8th place finishes and last year's disappointment of losing 4th. Our current level of performance has been three years in the making and its not an accidental or 'purple patch'. Its an accurate representation of the quality of work Arteta as well as Edu has put into the squad.

I do not feel we will 'drop off'. I think our current level of football will remain throughout the season and teams will need to do well to get points from us. Because Arteta wont just accept players falling to a casual attitude. He was backed against PEA and this is the precedent, Arteta is the boss of Arsenal in more than just name.

He is showing all the signs of being a top quality manager.
 
GoonerInPeace said:
Intangible and tangibles. The intangibles cannot be measured in numbers. The intangibles Arteta has improved is getting rid of player power and formatting a team culture with himself as the undisputed boss. Any player not putting in the effort required wouldnt be tolerated in the present Arsenal. Where as prior players dragging thier feet would

Recruitment has been sensational in the past two seasons. Tomiyasu, Ramsdale, Zinchenko, White, Odegaard, Jesus have been amazing signings. Tavares will likely be sold for a profit given he is going alright in Marseille, jury well still out on ASL. Getting rid of the high earing underperformers, PEA, Bellerin, Kolsinac, Torriera, Guendouzi , and Pepe is likely to be the last one. He has transformed the squad.

Develpoment of young players. Martinelli & Saka doing wonders, ESR and Nketiah more than capable players with a good future.

This has all been going on in the background even despite the consecutive 8th place finishes and last year's disappointment of losing 4th. Our current level of performance has been three years in the making and its not an accidental or 'purple patch'. Its an accurate representation of the quality of work Arteta as well as Edu has put into the squad.

I do not feel we will 'drop off'. I think our current level of football will remain throughout the season and teams will need to do well to get points from us. Because Arteta wont just accept players falling to a casual attitude. He was backed against PEA and this is the precedent, Arteta is the boss of Arsenal in more than just name.

He is showing all the signs of being a top quality manager.
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That is very unlikely. Any mid-term injury to Partey/Martinelli/Jesus and the level drops off immensely. All the good will and right attitude in the world doesn't replace what we'd miss.
Even without injuries they are bound to suffer a dip at some point and when it happens it hopefully turns into a few draws and not embarassing defeats to lower teams like the 2 previous seasons.
Third or fourth would be a very good season, i don't believe we'll be challenging (as in stay comfortably 2nd) City all the way.
 
awop said:
That is very unlikely. Any mid-term injury to Partey/Martinelli/Jesus and the level drops off immensely. All the good will and right attitude in the world doesn't replace what we'd miss.
Even without injuries they are bound to suffer a dip at some point and when it happens it hopefully turns into a few draws and not embarassing defeats to lower teams like the 2 previous seasons.
Third or fourth would be a very good season, i don't believe we'll be challenging (as in stay comfortably 2nd) City all the way.
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No back up player is better than the starting player. Do Tottenham have a number 9 to replace Kane?

I think we should be aiming much higher than 4th or 3rd. We should be looking to push City for as long as we can, and as hard as we can. I am not prepared to surrender to Man City and I am convinced Arteta isn't willing either. Arteta wants to win.

Perhaps it is too early in our cycle to compete/beat City over 38 games. But 8 wins from 9 game is title challenging form and unless results sour then it is defeatism to surrender to Man City even though we are presently above them in the league and coming off successive wins against Tottenham and Liverpool.

'I would take 4th place now' is the exact mentality Arteta needs to kick out of this club.

I would not take 4th place if it was offered right now. Neither would Super Mik
 
GoonerInPeace said:
No back up player is better than the starting player. Do Tottenham have a number 9 to replace Kane?

I think we should be aiming much higher than 4th or 3rd. We should be looking to push City for as long as we can, and as hard as we can. I am not prepared to surrender to Man City and I am convinced Arteta isn't willing either. Arteta wants to win.

Perhaps it is too early in our cycle to compete/beat City over 38 games. But 8 wins from 9 game is title challenging form and unless results sour then it is defeatism to surrender to Man City even though we are presently above them in the league and coming off successive wins against Tottenham and Liverpool.

'I would take 4th place now' is the exact mentality Arteta needs to kick out of this club.

I would not take 4th place if it was offered right now. Neither would Super Mik
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I applaud your optimism but i think you're in too deep with not even a quarter of the season played. Let's revisit this in January/February when our leagues games will be inbetween games against those 3rd CL teams, not Bodo Glimt. :angel:
Liverpool winning on Sunday would be a good start but i'm not getting my hopes up.
 
Powderfinger said:
When the club is thoroughly broken at every level - too much player power and terrible attitude within the side, untalented aging roster, corruption among the footballing directors, poisonous atmosphere in the stadium - then progression shouldn't be simply measured in where you finish and with how many points. You can measure it that way, of course, but you'd be missing the most important things happening at the club.

With the exception of the low point in fall 2020, when Arteta really was deservedly close to the sack, Arsenal supporters have been able to see a lot of progress in the attitude of the team, the development and integration of young players, the patterns of play on the field, and also the environment in the stadium. The results on the field were not as good as many people hoped. But the broader process of turning around the club looked good. Rival fans simply didn't want to see it because its more fun to just beat your rival with a simple stick ("Har har you finished 8th twice").

I think there's a good chance you'll see some version of this yourself with Ten Hag. You could very easily finish 6th again this year with a point total around 62-65, leaving some foolish people to say "He's hardly improved us at all. He's worse than Ole. If you don't get top four you get the sack, we need to keep up standards, etc etc." But you could have those results and still be making tremendous progress as a club if he is changing the culture within the squad, marginalizing the malcontents, teaching everybody to play a different style of football, and getting the supporters excited again.
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Excellent post. Rival fans just refuse to see it.
 
Dominos said:
Arsenal had finished 5th with 70 points the season before Arteta took over. Emery got off to a bad to the next season and left them 4 points behind 5th, and 7 points behind 4th in December when Arteta took over. When Arteta took over the points gap between themselves and 4th/5th increased. Now I'd give him a pass for this part-season, but revisiting this season is important for context. It's bordering on impossible not to improve them in subsequent seasons from this position, which was 8th place with 56 points. They had gone from the 5th best side and underperformed hugely on their way to a midtable finish, no one would expect them to remain midtable

Arteta's 1st full season he managed to improve them by 5 points, and finish 8th again, I find it absurd that this is somehow a clear sign of a great manager building something great. All we knew at the time was Arsenal had a laughably shit season under a manager who had no proven record as a manager prior. Getting excited for this "improvement" would be like United fans getting excited if ETH gets us a 5 points improvement on last season's calamity of a season. It's a rival forum and Arsenal had just had consecutive 8th placed finishes, you'll have to forgive the Caf for not heaping praise on Arteta for such monumental progression.

From there Arteta spent £150m in the summer for a further 8 point increase on his way to a 5th placed finish on 69 points. So, after 2 and a half years he managed to finish on less points than Emery managed in his only full season, and still has no top 4 finish to show for it. Maybe what they lack in substance they made up for in style with great attacking play? Nope, 5th highest xG in the league and a tendency to park the bus whenever they go a goal up.

It was all progression from a very low starting point. If a person's view was "listen, it's all a bit shit to watch but we're slowly improving and I'm willing to continue the slow progression for as long as it lasts, if we ever stop progressing then we'll have to pull the plug", fair enough. But let's not pretend there's anything weird about rival fans having a chuckle at a manager finishing 8th twice.
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This is all ignoring context. In the 5th place finish with 70 points we were very reliant on Ramsey and when he didn't play our point average dropped significantly. We also had Ozil, Kosceilny and Monreal playing important roles. These players either left or became past moving into the next season. We also bad eggs in Guenduzzi and Torreira who had decent seasons but seemingly weren't onboard with the project.

Then you have the problem that following Arteta's first 6 months and FA Cup success our key striker starts putting in half arsed efforts continously.
 
Dominos said:
Arsenal had finished 5th with 70 points the season before Arteta took over. Emery got off to a bad to the next season and left them 4 points behind 5th, and 7 points behind 4th in December when Arteta took over. When Arteta took over the points gap between themselves and 4th/5th increased. Now I'd give him a pass for this part-season, but revisiting this season is important for context. It's bordering on impossible not to improve them in subsequent seasons from this position, which was 8th place with 56 points. They had gone from the 5th best side and underperformed hugely on their way to a midtable finish, no one would expect them to remain midtable

Arteta's 1st full season he managed to improve them by 5 points, and finish 8th again, I find it absurd that this is somehow a clear sign of a great manager building something great. All we knew at the time was Arsenal had a laughably shit season under a manager who had no proven record as a manager prior. Getting excited for this "improvement" would be like United fans getting excited if ETH gets us a 5 points improvement on last season's calamity of a season. It's a rival forum and Arsenal had just had consecutive 8th placed finishes, you'll have to forgive the Caf for not heaping praise on Arteta for such monumental progression.

From there Arteta spent £150m in the summer for a further 8 point increase on his way to a 5th placed finish on 69 points. So, after 2 and a half years he managed to finish on less points than Emery managed in his only full season, and still has no top 4 finish to show for it. Maybe what they lack in substance they made up for in style with great attacking play? Nope, 5th highest xG in the league and a tendency to park the bus whenever they go a goal up.

It was all progression from a very low starting point. If a person's view was "listen, it's all a bit shit to watch but we're slowly improving and I'm willing to continue the slow progression for as long as it lasts, if we ever stop progressing then we'll have to pull the plug", fair enough. But let's not pretend there's anything weird about rival fans having a chuckle at a manager finishing 8th twice.
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Vapor trail said:
I like Arteta unlike many on the forum but I think that first two years at Arsenal was nowhere near the narrative you have described. Incremental improvements in performances is correct but if Arteta had the same trajectory at any top four club not just in England but Europe he would have been sacked without hesitation of it even being considered a questionable decision.

Arteta has benefited from two things the which are a young squad where the expectations have been fairly minimal and a very transparent board member in Kronkes son who has had patience in the transition. This is a situation where Arteta owes Arsenal more so than the club owing him.
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I'm not saying rival fans were wrong to look at results and draw their conclusions. Of course thats what they are going to do. However, the best judge of how the club is doing is their own support, which takes into account many things including results, performances, connection with the players, connection with the management, connection with the board and owners, atmosphere in the ground etc. In nearly every aspect of this Arsenal were getting towards lows not seen in years, decades perhaps.

Season tickets were still being sold as people didn't want to give them up, but there started to be more and more empty seats as fans simply couldn't be bothered turning up half the time. The fact the seats were sold but punters still didn't want to turn up told you everything you needed to know.

Now I totally agree it's not been a linear improvement on the pitch. There was initial highs of FA Cup wins, and there were real lows like the start of the 20/21 season, where every Arsenal fan admits he could easily have been sacked. However, he turned it around that Xmas and since then I think most fans started to wake up to what he was trying to do, could start to see an identity, and could start to feel a connection with the team. The positivity on the park and from the stands started to feed each other.

Even then it's not been perfect, it's not been plain sailing, but it was never going to be. At times it's been 2 steps forward, 1 back, and yeah, it's required patience from the fanbase and owners, but hopefully that patience is paying off now. Who knows, with Man City and the rest of the competition in the league it might not lead to any rewards in terms of pots of gold, but at the very least hes helped make the fans actually enjoy their football again however temporary it might be, and at the end of the day, with limited trophies available, thats the main thing.
 
TheReligion said:
Thought Luiz would be a shoe in January but just signed a new long term deal at Villa

Strange one
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I never thought Luiz was first choice. We didn't look like moving for him all summer, and only moved after the injury to Elneny, it seemed more like an opportune move thinking with Luiz contract status they could get him for a decent fee.

I think long term they are looking at another target. Danilo is a name we've been linked to and you can sort of see the thinking behind that, definitely in terms of making a move in January as the Brazilian season ends soon. In terms of squad planning, getting in a highly rated young midfielder to learn from and compete with Partey makes sense with our strategy. Whether thats Danilo or someone else remains to be seen, perhaps if we get back in Champions League that adjusts targets again.
 
Powderfinger said:
I think there's a good chance you'll see some version of this yourself with Ten Hag. You could very easily finish 6th again this year with a point total around 62-65, leaving some foolish people to say "He's hardly improved us at all. He's worse than Ole. If you don't get top four you get the sack, we need to keep up standards, etc etc." But you could have those results and still be making tremendous progress as a club if he is changing the culture within the squad, marginalizing the malcontents, teaching everybody to play a different style of football, and getting the supporters excited again.
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The issue is, you could spread this narrative about intangibles for any manager. Remember Ole's "cultural reboot" narrative where he only wanted players who wanted to play for the club, and he had brought some positive vibes back from the dark gloomy days of Mourinho. He was making progress until he wasn't.

If ETH finishes 6th on 62 points and rival fans have a chuckle at us, you won't hear me telling them "this is fantastic progression and it's proof ETH is building something great and this improvement we've shown is all the evidence I need that he's bringing back the glory days in future seasons". Because we don't know that, we're just hoping that's the case. A more sensible approach would be "it's not much progress but give him a 2nd season to make some serious improvement because he joined as a highly rated manager and it's early days". At the very least we have ETH's previous managerial record to fall back on which we didn't with Arteta.
 
Dominos said:
The issue is, you could spread this narrative about intangibles for any manager. Remember Ole's "cultural reboot" narrative where he only wanted players who wanted to play for the club, and he had brought some positive vibes back from the dark gloomy days of Mourinho. He was making progress until he wasn't.

If ETH finishes 6th on 62 points and rival fans have a chuckle at us, you won't hear me telling them "this is fantastic progression and it's proof ETH is building something great and this improvement we've shown is all the evidence I need that he's bringing back the glory days in future seasons". Because we don't know that, we're just hoping that's the case. A more sensible approach would be "it's not much progress but give him a 2nd season to make some serious improvement because he joined as a highly rated manager and it's early days". At the very least we have ETH's previous managerial record to fall back on which we didn't with Arteta.
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But thats all Arsenal fans were saying about Arteta. He'd made progress, he needs to make more progress. I think every summer the same was said, including this summer. And like with Ole, it's hard to have a go at a manager when that's happening.
When the progress stops, that's another issue, but the same can be said of every manager.
 
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