All I can say is Conte is an excellent head coach. He is doing an excellent job in Spurs with a squad he inherited and got result almost instantly. Spurs is lucky to have him.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Nothing in regards to Arteta rubs us in wrong way ffs. He is not Klopp or Pep to rub United fans wrong way.
The reason that this has 200 plus pages is because both sets of opinions are going in circles. Arteta fans keep asking the same question and arteta critiques keep saying the same things. My biggest surprise is how Arsenal fans have changed the goal post for him in comparison to Emery and Wenger who were hounded out by most of your fans. And to this date I haven't find a plausible explanation from any Arsenal fans here why finishing 5th after 3 seasons is fine for Arteta, that too after spending 250m plus but it wasn't fine for Emery.
Love Arteta he looks like a B-tech Pep, paid probably still a bit by City to pick up some of City's cast aways. Tottenham well and truly the North London big guns these days.
Now this is another story, with Spurs's wage bill and transfer budget less than or similar to Arsenal these days.
I’ll answer: I think most people got annoyed with him being the media lovechild as soon as he was hired, and United fans specifically rolled their eyes because we had to hear a lot of “Arteta is doing a wonderful job at Arsenal” while we largely were derided for our constant underperformance (in which we still placed better than Arsenal each year until last). Add to that the obvious obnoxious Arsenal Twitter fan base (every club has one though, it’s not exclusive to Arsenal) spouting how transformative Arteta was just a few weeks into his tenure and it gave a reason for rival fans to look for him to fail.
Again just speaking from personal experience of my own (and people I’ve talked to) opinions about it. Fans don’t like being told how great a job someone is doing if they can look at results and think otherwise, in a similar way to why people get annoyed by having xG shoved in their face every time to explain how unlucky a team was to lose. United fans especially because we’ve largely become a punchline for underperformance the last decade (even when we have been pretty good), and have had to deal with constant “eh they won but it’s still not great” for years from the same media. It’s made us very jaded.
Interesting responses - and all pretty fair...
As for Emery, he wasn't fired for finishing 5th, he kept his job. We were tanking the season he was sacked. Arteta started with us in 12th. If Emery had us in 5th there would have been no pressing reason to look for a replacement. There were a lot of issues with Emery beyond our league position. He's a good Manager and an honourable man, but he found it difficult to get his ideas across (no doubt exacerbated by his struggles with the language).
I think this is fascinating because RedCafe is the only rival forum I visit. I grew up in the 90s, so the Arsenal vs United was the rivalry for me.
I don't think this is controversial at all, I very much agree. Lacazette had a purple patch of assisting for a few games, but then was very poor. Had Arteta either kept Auba or replaced Laczette with Nketiah earlier, we would likely have made the CL.
For the record, I'm broadly speaking Wenger IN / Emery OUT / Arteta IN. An oversimplification - but a useful one. The goalpost have definitely moved for those who hounded Wenger out. I think it's deplorable. But a lot of those fans are no longer at the stadium. Many of them are probably gone altogether. There is quite a different vibe among fans now.
As for Emery, he wasn't fired for finishing 5th, he kept his job. We were tanking the season he was sacked. Arteta started with us in 12th. If Emery had us in 5th there would have been no pressing reason to look for a replacement. There were a lot of issues with Emery beyond our league position. He's a good Manager and an honourable man, but he found it difficult to get his ideas across (no doubt exacerbated by his struggles with the language).
I subscribe to The Athletic and watch quite a few Guillem Balagué videos... and even I find some of the analysis of Arteta to be overly fawning - so that's definitely fair. I think Arteta has had an easier ride than Ole because:
- He's a complete rookie so there may be potential vs Ole as a known quantity
- He won a trophy in England months into his career beating City and Chelsea on the way
- United have higher current expectations in line with their transfer spend, wage bill and club reputation
I think he’s has an easier ride due to Pep too. Let’s be honest.
Would also suggest Arsenal, and Arteta, have spent more than enough now to have higher expectations.
I honestly don't get all the Arteta-bashing on here. I don't think Arteta has earned any rave reviews yet, but I'm honestly impressed with what he and Edu are building at Arsenal, l think there is a huge potential. Of course time and results will tell, and it's fair to say after all this huge investment he must deliver or face the sack. But that applies to all top 6 club managers, not just him. Personally I can see what Arteta and Edu are trying to build and how they are going about it. But reading Caf comments one would think Arteta has turned Arsenal into perennial relegation survivors.
Have you watched many Arsenal games under Arteta? Fantastic stuff if you’re having trouble sleeping. The great entertainers have now become the great substitute for valium.
It's the results that matter. He has won silverware, and last season they were unlucky to miss out on top 4 mainly due to injuries to key players imo. They are a young team under a young manager and still learning how to manage a game. But they now at least try to change their play rather than be stuck in the same style when it's not working.
Ive seen you post this a few times and I think your being harsh. There's been a good few games I can remember being happy with how we get played, scored good goals, played good football.
Yeah, there's been a good few games as well where we've totally bombed as well. We need to be more consistent that's for sure.
I remember very few games where I was impressed maybe about 10 or so last season. You would imagine that a fan base who grew up watching us playing under Wenger wouldn’t be very tolerant of Mourinho type football but there we go. I bet we aren’t even top 5 in terms of goals scored or chances created how is that good football?
I didn't say it was over the majority of the season, and I've already said it needs to be more sustained going forward, but I just think your being a bit harsh, that's all.
Harsh? Arteta has got away with murder. Name me another manager of a top club that has been given the time and money that he has when they performed at his level. Even Spurs would have had him out the door halfway through 20/21 when he was near the bottom of the table.
That is some skills and quality Arteta has for him to get away with murder, or Josh and Stan are idiots who have no clues how to run a sport franchise.
I'm sure many Arsenal fans are happy you don't own or run the club. Your analysis is very weird. The last two summers (2021 and 2022) are the only windows when Arteta has been substantially backed financially on the market. It's fair to say if he fails to deliver big by May 2023 the club will probably show him the door. But halfway thru 2021? Jeez. Spurs would have been thrilled to win the Community Shield, that's how desperate they are.
He's been here for 2 and a half seasons, of which he had a poor 4 months of managing. The rest of the time was relatively successful. So not really sure what you're chatting about.
He's spent a lot of money, so this season we need to see further progress.
Surely it's top 4 or bust right?
It's not that simple, and the KPI of each manager varies with each club. For instance, if Arsenal win the FA Cup and Europa League and finish 5th or even 6th, there is no chance the board will sack him.
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Probably because the league has changed so much and arsenal are not in the position they used to be. Asking them to complete how they used to is a big ask.
We were in 11th place halfway through 20/21. Jeez what possible reason could there be to sack the manager right? Totally harsh and unreasonable. Oh wait didn’t Emery get sacked for doing the same?
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He isnt starting ahead of Tierney and nor would he start ahead of Gabriel at the left sided centre half. I woudl asl ohave reservaitons about a 5 foot 7 centre hald. If Martinez was to start, his best option would have been LCM ahead of Xhaka.
I dont even think Martinez will start for you form the beginning. If Maguire shows signs of a repeat of last season, I suspect Martinez will play centre half
As it stands with all players being fit the first team should be
Ramsdale
Tomiyasu, White, Gabriel, Tierney
Partey, Zinchenko
Odegaard,
Saka, Jesus, Martinelli
That front three press is going to be great, & in Saka and Martinelli we have two players no team wants to have running at their defenders one v one. Im really optimistic for our front three, I think it will be highly effective. Zinchenko as the number 8, he never played much midfield at City because he had De Bruyne and Bernardo ahead of him. Not being as good as those two is not a crime. I cringe whenever someone casts of a player because they leave because they cant get into a particulsr team. The same was said when we signed Sanchez, he was a "Barcelona reject'' because he was sold as he wouldnt have made the first team with Messi Saurez and Neymar on the Barca books. Zinchenko and Jesus are being cast aside because they would have been overlooked for Haaland and Bernardo/KDB. Reality is City are not our rivals right now. Neither are Liverpool. 3rd-6th is between Chelsea, United, Arsenal and Spurs.
I also dont get the hard support for Chelsea. They are not anymore capable of finishing 3rd than the rest of us, and Spurs are Spurs
Ramsdale
Tomiyasu, White, Gabriel, Tierney
Partey, Zinchenko
Odegaard,
Saka, Jesus, Martinelli
That front three press is going to be great, & in Saka and Martinelli we have two players no team wants to have running at their defenders one v one. Im really optimistic for our front three, I think it will be highly effective. Zinchenko as the number 8, he never played much midfield at City because he had De Bruyne and Bernardo ahead of him. Not being as good as those two is not a crime. I cringe whenever someone casts of a player because they leave because they cant get into a particulsr team. The same was said when we signed Sanchez, he was a "Barcelona reject'' because he was sold as he wouldnt have made the first team with Messi Saurez and Neymar on the Barca books. Zinchenko and Jesus are being cast aside because they would have been overlooked for Haaland and Bernardo/KDB. Reality is City are not our rivals right now. Neither are Liverpool. 3rd-6th is between Chelsea, United, Arsenal and Spurs.
I also dont get the hard support for Chelsea. They are not anymore capable of finishing 3rd than the rest of us, and Spurs are Spurs
Seeing an Arsenal team without Swiss Charlie Adam in it sparks great joy. I think William Saliba will quickly find his way into that team as well man is a top young talent with a very high ceiling. Weak points would be Tomiyasu and Tierney being unable to stay fit for any great length of time. Have to give credit to Arteta + Edu for building a pretty decent team here.
It will be interesting to see where Zinchenko plays, judging by Arteta talking about him yesterday he sees him as a left back, which would mean we need another midfielder and wide player id say.
If we are to have success with that squad, we need the likes of Partey & Tomiyasu to be available a lot more than they have been, and I'm just not sure we can rely on that. We also need Martinelli to step up his game this season, and start to fulfill his promise.
As for Chelsea, they will a similar team to last season, with a back line of Kounde, Silva & Koulibaly, Gallagher back as an option in midfield and Sterling as an option wide. I think they'll sign 1 or 2 others, so I'd say that a very decent improvement on last season.
A lot of weird posts on this page but this remains the weirdest one...
Why? Why would anyone do that to themselves?
There isn't one top class player in that team, they're all just "good". Jesus and Partey (
) probably the closest to being top class. Perhaps Saliba could be a top player if what your fans say is true but you need more than one top player to seriously compete with the likes of City. They usually have 8 in the side.There isn't one top class player in that team, they're all just "good". Jesus and Partey (
Where note competing with City. Were competing with United, Chelsea, Tottenham. How many top class players in your team?
There isn't one top class player in that team, they're all just "good". Jesus and Partey (
Lucky for us we ain’t competing with City. Their squad also costs 300+m more than ours. Give us CL football and 300m and we might be able to close that gap a bit more. Until then we are competing for 3rd-4th place.
Spurs have the likes of Son, Kane, the Argie CB, I rather suspect Bissouma will have a great season and they might yet be getting the likes of Koundé or Torres.
Chelsea have Reece James, Thiago, Koulibaly, Kanté (ok he might be a busted flush but he's been the best DM in the world in the past), Mendy I don't know about, he seemed world class for 6 months. They need strengthening in attack and I'm not convinced they'll have a great season overall but they still have several top players.
United, a bit like with Mendy it's hard to say since we have so many players who've been both very good and very bad for us. I don't even know who's going to start for us this year. What I do know is that if Bruno and Rashford can find their old form they're vastly better players than any of your attackers. Ronaldo is Ronaldo and will score goals if he stays. Eriksen still looked world class last season. De Jong can look world class sometimes. De Gea has been at the top of the game for over a decade. At least one of our CBs will look top class this year, I just have no idea which one. Hopefully this Martinez lad. Shaw is world class when he's not being a prat, which unfortunately is infrequent. Either way, there's far more potential for it in our squad than yours.
Arsenal have spent over £300m on transfers since Arteta arrived. As yet he still hasn't managed to outperform Emery who finished 5th on 70 points and Arteta has been in the job for almost 3 years.
There should be huge pressure on him to deliver now, just as there would be on any other manager who had received that kind of backing. Conte achieved Champions League football in half a season with Spurs, as a point of comparison.
I'd be happy to see him stay, of course, but it's easy to see why he receives criticism.
It's not really fair to include this summers transfers when the season hasnt been played yet.
The point is with the resources he's had he should be achieving top 4 minimum this season.
The pressure was ramped up on Solskjaer when he signed Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo last summer. The same was true of Lampard at Chelsea when they spent big on Havertz and Werner.
As I say, I'd be content to see Arteta stay at Arsenal. But this kind of expectation is normal when you've spent as much as he has.
This season, I want to see improvement yeah. I want to hit 75 points and hopefully that should be enough for top 4.
But you are looking at Arsenal's spend in isolation, when Chelsea will spend £200M or so, Spurs will spend £150M+ you'd imagine, Utd likewise.
People talk about £300M over 3 seasons like its a big deal, when it's just the actual norm for a top 6 side.
Honestly I think last season was Arteta's opportunity to deliver. Arsenal had no European football, United were in crisis and Spurs had a horrible start to the season under Nuno.
£300m over 3 seasons is pretty much unprecedented for Arsenal, yet the pressure on Arteta (so far) has been a lot more lax than it was for either Wenger or Emery in recent years. I expect that pressure will build quickly if results don't come next season.
I would love to see the total spend of clubs including wages.
People are quick to point out our spend, which is a valid point to a degree.
But they also completely ignore the fact we are actively spending more on fees to sign players on lower wages to keep to a reasonable wage budget. It's the typical Varane vs White debate. Yes our fee was higher, but the overall package was far less.
Jesus is the one player recently we've signed who breaks that a bit. But people tend to ignore wages completely. A player on £100k for 5 years, compared to one on £250k for 5 years is £25m compared to £62.5m. Almost £40m difference there alone.
People are quick to point out our spend, which is a valid point to a degree.
But they also completely ignore the fact we are actively spending more on fees to sign players on lower wages to keep to a reasonable wage budget. It's the typical Varane vs White debate. Yes our fee was higher, but the overall package was far less.
Jesus is the one player recently we've signed who breaks that a bit. But people tend to ignore wages completely. A player on £100k for 5 years, compared to one on £250k for 5 years is £25m compared to £62.5m. Almost £40m difference there alone.
Arsenal's wage bill is relevant when compared to other major PL clubs and has some influence on their ability to compete in the top 4; in that sense we could call it reasonable. But in a broader context, Arsenal have one of the highest wage bills in the world; it is not a "reasonable" wage bil. Clubs of comparable standing in their own domestic leagues have considerably lower budgets. Yet I don't know that it's so obvious that these clubs have much worse squads than Arsenal's.
No point at all really comparing it with global teams. The premier league finances are in a world of their own.
Even then, i'd be interested to see come the end of this window what the comparison is globally. I'm sure Inter/AC/Atletico will be less but doubt it'll be by a huge amount.
Apparently for next season: (Annual)
Arsenal - £112m
Chelsea - £185m
Liverpool - £151m
City - £151m
United - £214m
Spurs - £115m
And this is considering we haven't sold anyone yet and have about 12 players to offload, so I expect that to balance out to £100m if we also make 1 or 2 more signings.
Arsenal - £112m
Chelsea - £185m
Liverpool - £151m
City - £151m
United - £214m
Spurs - £115m
And this is considering we haven't sold anyone yet and have about 12 players to offload, so I expect that to balance out to £100m if we also make 1 or 2 more signings.