Hate to tell you but we've already won something serious under him, unless your 1 of these new age fans that think it's only ever about the league or Champions League?
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
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Hate to tell you but we've already won something serious under him, unless your 1 of these new age fans that think it's only ever about the league or Champions League?
Yes but we didn't end up winning the league, or becoming a side who could really consistently compete for it either. We won FA cups yes, but it seems like most on here would criticise us for being happy with just FA cups, so not sure how that can be now used as a counter. I rate the FA cup a lot, and I think it's a great thing to win, but the long term goal should be to win leagues.
We need to do something different to go up a level potentially, which in this case is building a strong group together, with a younger profile and a potential higher ceiling. Then hopefully adding a few quality players at the end of it to boost the side.
The approaches are similar in terms of signing less high profile players on lower wages than already world class stars. Liverpools players were more experienced at the time, ours are a bit less experienced. The point is we don't have a Klopp, and there's not really many Klopps around. It would be a bit daft to expect us to just challange for the title this season or last, or next, when we have two of the best sides in PL history with the two best managers in the world competing at their prime.
The aim is to have a group that develops with the manager to get better year on year and eventually get back to that level. I have no issues with us taking that approach, it's logical.
Expecting instant success, which is the approach United took, obviously doesn't seem to work always.
Arsenal had the the poorest start to the season of all 20 teams - so what? Plus, Spurs finished the season with their joint highest points total in the last five years. The idea that last season was some once in a lifetime event where Spurs and United underperformed is rife around here, despite the fact the it really wasn’t anything out that of the ordinary.
This is true. The missing context is that we conceded 9 goals during our first 3 games where we were hit by injuries and COVID. We didn’t actually start our new back line signings (Ramsdale / White / Tomiyasu) until after the international break. Ramsdale actually kept 12 clean sheets in his 34 games which is just behind Mendy. Not brilliant - but also not bad at all.
It’s really not a tough season to decipher. During the run-in we suffered injuries to:
- White
- Tomiyasu
- Tierney
- Partey
- Holding
- Cedric
- Tavares
- El Neny
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All teams can chop and screw their results like this.
"Mikel Arteta has revealed he has been tracking Cedric Soares for a number of seasons after Arsenal pulled off a deadline-day move for the Southampton right-back" - January 2020
" Rob Holding has signed a new long-term contract with us, running until 2024 with an option for a further year. Mikel Arteta added: “Since I started as manager, I have been hugely impressed with Rob’s contribution to the club and the dressing room, on and off the pitch. The quality of his work every day on the training pitches is excellent and he is translating this into consistently high performances in matches. " January 2021
" Midfielder Mohamed Elneny is extending his stay with us. Manager Mikel Arteta said: “Mo is a really important part of the team. He brings endless energy, enthusiasm and commitment to the team and is loved by everyone. He's an important player for us on and off the pitch, a real role model to our younger players and I'm delighted he's staying." May 2022
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Where did you have us finishing last season.
Poor Mikel, betrayed on the pitch by the shit players he *adjusts reading glasses* signed and renewed.
Did you read the very next sentence? It is a specific point made in response to the us buying new defenders but conceding 9 goals more than the season before. I was pointing out that we conceded 9 goals before the new defence ever played together.
All those players have their use in the squad, but they shouldn't be the 2nd choice ones really. Saliba is now 3rd choice CB.
Elneny is still 2nd choice DM, but that isn't too big a deal for me.
Cedric is my worry really. I think he isn't good enough and he will get quite a few minutes too. But equally we have BNC and Walters coming through who are two top RB prospects, so signing another RB this season might not make the best sense longer term when one of those two should be ready next season.
To be fair, selecting the three first, consecutive games of a season isn't chopping much.
You support Real Madrid so you may be unfamiliar with the concept, but sometimes players like:
- Holding (£2m)
- Cedric (Free)
- Tavares (£7m)
- El Neny (£5m)
This is the context that most people seem to ignore.
Are they signing Zinchenko ?
I am starting to wonder if he joined Arsenal to pick up Pep's deadwood
I am starting to wonder if he joined Arsenal to pick up Pep's deadwood
Arsenal finished 8th in 20/21, they were terrible in the first half of the season and began 2021 on 13th place.
So what we are saying here is that if we remove three entire games (8% of all matches) from their 21/22 results, their GA would be the same as the one in a season in which they were bad for half of it. This is not good.
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Real Madrid have a transfer net spend of minus 110 million euros in the last three summers and substituted Dani "not good enough to stay at Arsenal" Ceballos into a Champions League final. They also substituted Jesus "not good enough to even get minutes at Wolves" into a CL semifinal against City. I'm pretty familiar with "making do with what you've got" and not using it as an excuse.
Sums Arsenal fans with Arteta.
Amol, you're better than going down the same illogical route.
Arteta got some initial goodwill with a trophy secured, then with the fact that 20/21 was a Covid disrupted anomaly. 21/22 was a step in the right direction for the most part, but there were some very obvious shortcomings he displayed which will probably prove to be his downfall in the next season or two.
No Arsenal supporter is blind to any of this. The arrogance displayed by United supporters, a side who have struggled as much as us (and have 3-4 cups less to show for that period) is hilarious. You're at our level and suddenly find it galling that "our standards have dropped". I think you'll find we've gone past the entitlement phase. Now it's about good football and another few steps in the right direction before we get to a stage where we challenge - which I don't think is too far off.
Yes indeed, Cebellos coming on for 90 seconds to waste time made him truely a critical player for you last season. And Jesús Vallejo playing 8 minutes over 2 CL games was surely a cornerstone that you had to turn to. Sarcasm mode now OFF.
No, what I’m saying is… what I said.
We conceded the 3rd least goals in 20/21. It was pointed out that we bought a GK, CB and RB and then conceded 9 more goals in 21/22. I provided the context that our revamped back line didn’t play the until our 4th game, by which time we had conceded 9 goals.
What I wrote was relevant to the point that I was replying to.
Also, the first choice defence of Ramdale, Tomiyasu, White, Gabriel & Tierney played around 10 league games together, and everyone already admits the replacements aren't good enough.
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Daydreamer, the most important context is that "3rd least goals in 20/21" was never anything to brag about, because Arsenal conceded 39 goals. That's over a goal per game. This is not a good defensive record. There was never a solid defensive base there, which is why adding new defensive players who were ostensibly better didn't actually do much.
On matchday 3 Arsenal played Manchester City away. They only played with 1 player from their first choice defense (Tierney). They conceded 5 goals. That's more than half of the goals they conceded in those first 3 matches.
But on matchday 13 they played Liverpool away. And this time they had 4 of their 5 first choice defenders: Ramsdale, White, Tomiyasu, and Gabriel. And they conceded 4 goals. That is pretty good evidence that having the best defenders unavailable is not the reason why they conceded so many goals in those first matches.
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They are not critical players, indeed: the squad has players that cannot be relied upon, who are not good enough, so they don't play much and the starters play too many minutes. It affects the capability to win titles (for example, falling short on every front in 20/21). This is an explanation, but it's not a weather event. It's not simply a thing that happened. Someone is responsible for it.
The issue here is people keep defending Arteta by saying he had to rebuild a shit squad. But that defense stops being serious when you're also blaming poor results on players he's signed and renewed. It's his squad, and it's very silly to try to blame the squad deficiencies on Arsenal not having enough money.
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Despite the awful quality of football I’m willing to back him this season. Maybe he is actually Pep lite who needs an entire team of his own players to perform after all Pep barely scraped 3rd in his first season at City and only went on to win things when he had his own players and Pep started with a much higher base of player at City than Arteta did at Arsenal.
This has to be the season where the excuses run out. If I was the board I would put a footballing jihad on Arteta : convert this team into an attractive attacking side that qualifies for the CL or die (sacked).
This has to be the season where the excuses run out. If I was the board I would put a footballing jihad on Arteta : convert this team into an attractive attacking side that qualifies for the CL or die (sacked).
Yep.
I'm not even going to bring up Serge Gnabry. Oops, I did.
Not sure what that has to do with Arteta though considering he was still a player when he left.
Was it to highlight your inability to stay on topic?
Topic was Arsenal fans moaning about the players they have to do with and how little they cost.
Still not getting what that has to do with Arteta and the year 2022.
You finished 8th and 8th. At the same time with "the worst manager ever" we finished 3ed and 2ed. Last season was an improvement for you because we had major squad issues and collapsed. Arsenals lowering of expectations from much of the fan base is one of the most bizarre situations in Europe. United's worst ever season in the PL and Arsenal is just one place on top, while you think are improving and going places. Just bizarre stuff.
This thread is all over the place : )
Arteta didn't sign Holding or El Neny. He extended their contracts because that was a sensible thing to do. They're on reasonable wages. Tavares and Cedric cost £7m combined. That's two squad players from previous managers (Holding / El Neny), one raw prospect (Tavares) and a free transfer stop-gap (Cedric). The addition of Zinchenko and the return of Saliba means we shouldn't have to rely on them anymore.
During the run-in we suffered injuries to the areas of our squad where the drop off in quality was the most steep. Had Spurs lost Kane or Son for any amount of time, the wheels would have come off for them because their system relies on them and their replacements are of nowhere near the same quality.
Teams like Real Madrid can both avoid and mitigate the effects of injuries due to the quality of their squad. Holding, Cedric, Tavares and El Neny would not get anywhere near your squad. Me saying you're unfamiliar with the concept of having to "make due with what you've got" was a compliment. Stating that even your time-wasting injury-time subs have 11 caps for Spain proves my point better than I ever could : )
This is a genuine question, why do you care about Arteta so much that you feel compelled to (unsuccessfully) downplay the quality of your squad? I'm an Arsenal fan - I know why I care. But I can't imagine being a Real Madrid fan and being interested enough in Arteta to try and use a late Ceballos substitute appearance as a stick to beat him with. For me, that would be like hanging around in a Brendan Rogers thread. I don't particularly rate Rogers... but I don't care about him either. For real, I'm just interested - I'm seriously not trying to antagonise.
This would be a relevant point if anyone was pointing to our 20/21 defensive record as a reason for sticking with Arteta in 22/23. But nobody was.
Leaving aside the fact that Salah tore Tavares apart that day - this would be relevant if anybody said we only concede goals when our best defenders are unavailable. But nobody did.
This would be relevant if anyone said that this isn't his squad and that our deficiencies are due to a lack of money. But nobody did.
Arteta didn't sign Holding or El Neny. He extended their contracts because that was a sensible thing to do. They're on reasonable wages. Tavares and Cedric cost £7m combined. That's two squad players from previous managers (Holding / El Neny), one raw prospect (Tavares) and a free transfer stop-gap (Cedric). The addition of Zinchenko and the return of Saliba means we shouldn't have to rely on them anymore.
During the run-in we suffered injuries to the areas of our squad where the drop off in quality was the most steep. Had Spurs lost Kane or Son for any amount of time, the wheels would have come off for them because their system relies on them and their replacements are of nowhere near the same quality.
Teams like Real Madrid can both avoid and mitigate the effects of injuries due to the quality of their squad. Holding, Cedric, Tavares and El Neny would not get anywhere near your squad. Me saying you're unfamiliar with the concept of having to "make due with what you've got" was a compliment. Stating that even your time-wasting injury-time subs have 11 caps for Spain proves my point better than I ever could : )
This is a genuine question, why do you care about Arteta so much that you feel compelled to (unsuccessfully) downplay the quality of your squad? I'm an Arsenal fan - I know why I care. But I can't imagine being a Real Madrid fan and being interested enough in Arteta to try and use a late Ceballos substitute appearance as a stick to beat him with. For me, that would be like hanging around in a Brendan Rogers thread. I don't particularly rate Rogers... but I don't care about him either. For real, I'm just interested - I'm seriously not trying to antagonise.
You've been deteriorating for years. Our banter years and we still have 4 cups to show for them, while you're responsible for more people discovering schadenfreude every season.
In my opinion, if it is sensible to renew a player's contract, it is not sensible to blame them for poor performances on account that they're not good enough.
We have a few cups too, including a European one that you didn't get even during the "invincible" years. United at it's lowest for many decades has more European success then Arsenal in 30 years
We were also relevant in the league coming 3ed and 2ed while you battled for 8th and 9th. It's good though, you finished one place above us in our worst season ever in the PL. I give you credit for that. Keep Lego Pep for a life long contract please.Actually, this question is open to everyone. This thread is currently at 239 pages. It looks like the in last 50 or so pages the consensus among the majority of Arsenal fans is that:
- He's slashed our wage bill and the average age of our squad
- He won a trophy in his first half a season
- The 8th place finish in his first full season could have seen him sacked
- The 5th place finish last season was pretty much on par with current expectations
- We need to see progression this season for him to keep his job
But a fair few rival fans are bemused that our fanbase isn't calling for his head en masse. I'm interested why Arteta provokes such a reaction.
And that's why I said you may not be familiar with the concept as a Real Madrid fan. We are trying to raise the technical level of our squad over the course of several seasons. We can't simply jettison all of our current players. Camavinga is a bench player for you. Arsenal was not in a position to sign him - not due to budget but because we do not have the pull Real have. I wasn't being facetious when I said that's not something a Real fan ever worries about.
Also, it's not blaming those players. I love Holding and El Neny. They give their best every time they pull on the shirt. I have no problem with them signing extensions. And when we have one or two of those backups in the team, that's fine. But during the run-in we had to play all four at times and our levels dropped accordingly.
I can present a counter question to you,
Why are Arsenal fans like yourself being so defensive if some rival fans don't actually rate Arteta and feel he is extremely lucky to be managing Arsenal.
Please note none of those rival fans including me are unhappy with Arteta being at the job. The longer he stays with you guys chances are the longer you are not a huge threat to other top 6 club.
I'm not sure I am being defensive. In the very post you're replying to I state that Arteta is lucky to still be in a job after his first full season. I am fully up for a discussion about his performance... but I'm an Arsenal fan so that's no huge surprise.
Fans not rating Arteta makes perfect sense. As I said, I don't rate Brendan Rogers, for example. But if there was a Brendan Rogers thread on Arsenal-Mania.com, it would not run to 200+ pages.
So to clarify, my question isn't, "Why oh why don't you think my Manager is the bestest?" It is instead, "What is it about Arteta that rubs you up the wrong way?"
I can't speak for others, but in a forum people can have their opinion on Arteta and I have no problem with that. Arteta is a rookie manager and he needs to prove himself to Josh every year that he is the right person for the job. As a fan I accept the fact that with the resource Arsenal has and the teams it is competing with, Arsenal can only fighting for a 4th spot at the moment. Yes, Arsenal is not a huge threat to Liverpool and Man City. Wage bill of each club is a pretty good indicator of a club's standing. I will only have a problem with Arteta is if our wage bill is 1st or 2nd, but finish outside of top 4, then i will want him out.
Rodgers is ex-liverpool and is generally fun to laugh at, in a Brenty kind of way. I wouldn't expect arsenal fans to feel anywhere near the same. Can't speak for other united fans, but when I do have time to pay attention to arsenal or their managers, its probably because we used to be fierce rivals once, and im just curious where they are at these days. As for Arteta himself, pretty sure I said the same thing in that there's nothing personal agaisnt him, but the boom bust cycle in here is very noticable every year. Just wait until you guys start the season strongly, this place will be rocking again.
To be fair I don't think I ever expect Arsenal to fight for the title in nearby future , so I am not holding arteta against that. I think everyone should agree finishing in top 4 was there for taking for you guys but you failed. I know no one predicted Arsenal to finish top 4 but football isn't played on paper. No one predicted United to finish 6th either and no one expected Spurs to sack Nuno and then from that position to finish 4th.
It may be controversial but I feel a smart manager would have kept Auba for 6 more months and used him for the goals. But again that is for debate and to be fair I don't hold Arteta against that completely. It was his decision to bin him so he has no right to make excuse of saying we didn't have back up striker.