Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

So let me get this straight;

Arsenal Fans who think that their Players/Team/Squad/Manager are better than City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and Manchester United's equivalent and expect to finish above (any or all of) them = Deluded?

Arsenal Fans who don't think that and have no expectation of finishing above them = Artificially Lowered Expectations?
 
GoonerBear said:
That total spoofer has managed better head to heads vs the Utd managers, the Chelsea managers, Rodgers, Moyes, Bielsa to name a few in the time he's been here. Doesn't say much for them then.
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Sort of thing Ole fans would regularly brag about. It’s meaningless.

 
RacingClub said:
Arsenal Fans who think that their Players/Team/Squad/Manager are better than City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and Manchester United's equivalent and expect to finish above (any or all of) them = Deluded?

Arsenal Fans who don't think that and have no expectation of finishing above them = Artificially Lowered Expectations?
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This can be resolved by simply not assuming that there is a 1-to-1 relationship between squad/team/manager quality and league position.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
This can be resolved by simply not assuming that there is a 1-to-1 relationship between squad/team/manager quality and league position.
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Not always but it's a good indicator.

How else can/should you create an expectation on where your team should finish next season?
 
RacingClub said:
So let me get this straight;

Arsenal Fans who think that their Players/Team/Squad/Manager are better than City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and Manchester United's equivalent and expect to finish above (any or all of) them = Deluded?

Arsenal Fans who don't think that and have no expectation of finishing above them = Artificially Lowered Expectations?
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Many do both. For example i remember the season before last DT was gassing up the Arsenal squad while laughing at Ole and Lampard while claiming West Ham were doomed for the drop. Then when the season kicked in and Arteta was miles behind all three he said it was because of the players.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Lots of people talking about his spending being huge

Can anyone give a comparison of his spending vs the other big 6 clubs in the time he’s been at Arse.
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It's something like this up to the start of this summer (Fees taken from Transfermarkt)

City - £250M
Liverpool - £153M
Chelsea - £328M
Spurs - £186M (Doesn't include Romero fee or Kulusevski potential purchase)
Arsenal - £227M
Utd - £256M

Of course, this is just a simplistic view, and doesn't take into account wages or anything like that.
Tavern in the town said:
Sort of thing Ole fans would regularly brag about. It’s meaningless.
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Well apparently you can't just do it on results because you guys like to not include last season because of who managed you.

RacingClub said:
So let me get this straight;

Arsenal Fans who think that their Players/Team/Squad/Manager are better than City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and Manchester United's equivalent and expect to finish above (any or all of) them = Deluded?

Arsenal Fans who don't think that and have no expectation of finishing above them = Artificially Lowered Expectations?
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Covers some of it. Don't forget, Arteta is the worst manager in the league, is our Ole, plays boring football, has spent an absolute fortune, plus we only finished above Utd because of their poor managers.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Lots of people talking about his spending being huge

Can anyone give a comparison of his spending vs the other big 6 clubs in the time he’s been at Arse.
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I don't think it is a fair comparison. During Edu/Arteta's reign they needed to overhaul basically the entire squad and also took the consequence of bad transfer business from the previous management. Their net spend is big there is no question about it. Arsenal has been really bad in selling players. I remember the highest fee they got is 35m from Alex Oxlade Chamberlain to Liverpool.
 
GoonerBear said:
It's something like this up to the start of this summer (Fees taken from Transfermarkt)

City - £250M
Liverpool - £153M
Chelsea - £328M
Spurs - £186M (Doesn't include Romero fee or Kulusevski potential purchase)
Arsenal - £227M
Utd - £256M

Of course, this is just a simplistic view, and doesn't take into account wages or anything like that.


Well apparently you can't just do it on results because you guys like to not include last season because of who managed you.



Covers some of it. Don't forget, Arteta is the worst manager in the league, is our Ole, plays boring football, has spent an absolute fortune, plus we only finished above Utd because of their poor managers.
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I'm not sure why you're offended by people calling him your Ole tbh. At the end of the day, Ole managed 2nd and 3rd place finishes. I never rated him whatsoever, but he done a passable job for a period of time. I just see a ridiculous amount of parallels between the two.

If I were a betting man, I would wager Arteta will go on to have the better managerial career. But as of now, he's certainly Ole level.
 
Robbie Boy said:
I'm not sure why you're offended by people calling him your Ole tbh. At the end of the day, Ole managed 2nd and 3rd place finishes. I never rated him whatsoever, but he done a passable job for a period of time. I just see a ridiculous amount of parallels between the two.

If I were a betting man, I would wager Arteta will go on to have the better managerial career. But as of now, he's certainly Ole level.
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What parallels do you see?
 
RacingClub said:
So let me get this straight;

Arsenal Fans who think that their Players/Team/Squad/Manager are better than City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and Manchester United's equivalent and expect to finish above (any or all of) them = Deluded?

Arsenal Fans who don't think that and have no expectation of finishing above them = Artificially Lowered Expectations?
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This is good. I want a close race to the top four from Arteta. If we finish less than 3 points out, or lose in the EL Final then it'll be about par. Don't rate Arteta, but there are worse managers.
 
RacingClub said:
How else can/should you create an expectation on where your team should finish next season?
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Instead of expectations I think about goals and the methods to achieve them. Arsenal want to be competitive. They want to win major titles. So does Mikel Arteta. Those are the goals.

Arteta isn't a normal manager, he was completely unproven when appointed, had zero managerial experience. You'd give someone like that a job if you believed that behind their inexperience was greater potential than in other, more proven candidates. That's the gamble. If Arteta is just a good but not great manager then the gamble didn't actually work!
 
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GoonerBear said:
What parallels do you see?
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I'm pretty sure I've explained earlier in the thread so can't be arsed, sorry.

So again, why are you so ultra defensive when he's called your Ole? This is a manager who finished 2nd and 3rd, and had a decent record against some of the better managers in the league.
 
Robbie Boy said:
I'm pretty sure I've explained earlier in the thread so can't be arsed, sorry.

So again, why are you so ultra defensive when he's called your Ole? This is a manager who finished 2nd and 3rd, and had a decent record against some of the better managers in the league.
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Im not ultra defensive, I just think it's a lazy comparison. As far as I can see it they are both just former players at the respective clubs. Ole was a legend, Arteta isn't, Ole wasn't in his first job, Arteta is, Ole to me was trying to be everyones friend, Arteta is being more my way or the highway, Arteta is being more ruthless at getting the high wage under achievers out, Ole had a good record vs Pep, Arteta hasn't, Ole eventually went for the top star names perhaps past their prime like Varane & Ronaldo, Arteta hasn't.

I think Ole done well the first couple of seasons as well, I'm not knocking him, I've been consistent with that in here, he gets knocked more in this thread from Utd fans more than Arsenal fans.
 
GoonerBear said:
Im not ultra defensive, I just think it's a lazy comparison. As far as I can see it they are both just former players at the respective clubs. Ole was a legend, Arteta isn't, Ole wasn't in his first job, Arteta is, Ole to me was trying to be everyones friend, Arteta is being more my way or the highway, Arteta is being more ruthless at getting the high wage under achievers out, Ole had a good record vs Pep, Arteta hasn't, Ole eventually went for the top star names perhaps past their prime like Varane & Ronaldo, Arteta hasn't.

I think Ole done well the first couple of seasons as well, I'm not knocking him, I've been consistent with that in here, he gets knocked more in this thread from Utd fans more than Arsenal fans.
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Well there are also plenty of similarities in terms of: win %, the type of results both are capable of and the kind of terrible runs both are capable of - this is to name a-few.

I personally don't care if Ole was a legend or not, and it certainly shouldn't matter. Both are former players who went on to manage their former clubs.

Well yes, Arteta is only starting out. I alluded in an earlier post to him likely having a better managerial career than Ole, when all is said and done. I think at the this point in time, Arteta has done a very similar job to the one that Ole had done at a similar stage with us. I also see a-lot of the same defences for Arteta that United fans made for Ole. As I said, he's done a passable job for now, but I think that'll be as good as it gets. Maybe he'll prove me wrong - like Ole might have done - but I doubt it.
 
Robbie Boy said:
Well there are also plenty of similarities in terms of: win %, the type of results both are capable of and the kind of terrible runs both are capable of - this is to name a-few.

I personally don't care if Ole was a legend or not, and it certainly shouldn't matter. Both are former players who went on to manage their former clubs.

Well yes, Arteta is only starting out. I alluded in an earlier post to him likely having a better managerial career than Ole, when all is said and done. I think at the this point in time, Arteta has done a very similar job to the one that Ole had done at a similar stage with us. I also see a-lot of the same defences for Arteta that United fans made for Ole. As I said, he's done a passable job for now, but I think that'll be as good as it gets. Maybe he'll prove me wrong - like Ole might have done - but I doubt it.
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Think that's why I'm intrigued to see how Conte does, and even Ten Hag. Conte a genuine world class manager, and Ten Hag highly rated.
Both are starting at roughly the same point Arsenal are at just now, both will likely spend similar to Arsenal over the next season or 2, its a great case to see if having these top coaches cad genuinely overtake Klopp & Pep with their established quality, & even Tuchel to a lesser extent.
 
GoonerBear said:
Think that's why I'm intrigued to see how Conte does, and even Ten Hag. Conte a genuine world class manager, and Ten Hag highly rated.
Both are starting at roughly the same point Arsenal are at just now, both will likely spend similar to Arsenal over the next season or 2, its a great case to see if having these top coaches cad genuinely overtake Klopp & Pep with their established quality, & even Tuchel to a lesser extent.
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Conte has already done a good job but there'll obviously be a different kind of pressure this season. They have a good squad so I think they'll have a strong season. City will be the ones to beat, and I fancy Liverpool falling away a-bit. Chelsea will likely fare better than last season too. All-in-all, it's going to be a very competitive league.

I don't fancy us getting top-four this season in all honesty. It's going to be a transitional season and I'm guessing some of our players just won't have what it takes in ETH's demanding system. I reckon us and your lot will finish somewhere between 5th and 7th. Not sure where it leaves Arteta if you don't put up a decent battle for top-four, though.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
I love what he’s doing at Arse.

I think he’s actually building a great young side there who play ‘the Arsenal way’ - actually doing what deluded people claimed Ole was doing at Utd.

I think he really needs CL footy this season. But even if he were fail with that (City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs, Utd…) I think a good cup run and good showing in the PL would be a success in my limited opinion.
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what is the Arsenal way to you?

pre-Wenger it was boring boring Arsenal.. so if it's that then I agree with you because this Arsenal side is as dull as ditchwater
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Indeed. The only correct bit of the post you’re replying to is the final three words.
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Aw don’t be needlessly bitchy mate. If I bother you, talk to me in PM and sort it there, don’t follow me ‘round doing this mate. It’s passive aggressive and lowly. I acknowledged my opinion is limited, so taking a potshot at that very fact seems incredibly pathetic, even for yourself.

@Tarrou by the ‘Arsenal way’ I mean moving the ball on the ground, playing from back to front with quick passing movements and bringing together an exciting group of skillfull young players.

I don’t watch Arse beyond MOTD so I don’t profess to be some kind of expert on them, but from what I saw last season, I thought they looked to be going in the right direction. Yes, they collapsed at the end, but that’s not really my point.

I don’t really get the hate for him to be honest. I don’t think he’ll be the manager to return them to their former peak, but he’s building something decent there in my limited opinion (quote for Pogue at the end there).
 
They've made some interesting signings but I think they're going to expect some kind of return on that investment now. This is where I foresee a stumbling block for Arteta because I thought it was always going to be hard to take that next step. Firstly because we don't know that Arteta is proven to deliver, and secondly because they haven't really bought finished products so it's hard to say when or if some of them will come to fruition. But this season is the fork in the road because I'm not sure fan expectation or the ownership will allow meandering into 5th or 6th quite so comfortably as last season.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Aw don’t be needlessly bitchy mate. If I bother you, talk to me in PM and sort it there, don’t follow me ‘round doing this mate. It’s passive aggressive and lowly. I acknowledged my opinion is limited, so taking a potshot at that very fact seems incredibly pathetic, even for yourself.

@Tarrou by the ‘Arsenal way’ I mean moving the ball on the ground, playing from back to front with quick passing movements and bringing together an exciting group of skillfull young players.

I don’t watch Arse beyond MOTD so I don’t profess to be some kind of expert on them, but from what I saw last season, I thought they looked to be going in the right direction. Yes, they collapsed at the end, but that’s not really my point.

I don’t really get the hate for him to be honest. I don’t think he’ll be the manager to return them to their former peak, but he’s building something decent there in my limited opinion (quote for Pogue at the end there).
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Hate is a strong word, I don't think anyone hates him. People don't rate him. You said they play "arsenal way", which I agree can be matter of opinions but no way they play the arsenal way which for me is the way arsenal played under wenger. Wenger in his latter stages also had his club play exciting football at least against lower level teams.

Again this has been repeated many times here but I feel Arteta's football is drab, resembles more Moyes than Pep. Again matter of opinion, if someone feels Arteta has his side play exciting football then good for them.

For me Arteta can only be judged with what he has done till now and for the time and money spent by him, it doesn't look good. He may go on to do very well but I can only judge from what he has delivered till now.
 
I think he's done a good job overall and they've rebuild their squad nicely but they won't finish top 4 and he'll get fired. Still a good appointment. Young players mostly doing well under him. Football is definitely too boring. They just might need a different manager to carry on the work. Looks a decent squad for Potter's style of football to work with, for example.
 
They really need Tierney to stay healthy so that Zinchenko can play in midfield. That upgrades 2 positions IMO. Much prefer Zinchenko with some license to move around and think he could struggle at LB not at City and I kinda hate their deep options in midfield that aren't Partey.
 
Tarrou said:
what is the Arsenal way to you?

pre-Wenger it was boring boring Arsenal.. so if it's that then I agree with you because this Arsenal side is as dull as ditchwater
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I don't think there is an Arsenal way. It is up to Josh and the head coach he picked. So I will call it the Josh way. Wenger was in charge for almost two decades so people and the fans were used to his football style.
 
GoonerBear said:
Genuine question for yourself and others on here. What would turn 'Lego Pep' from an average manager to a good manager on here?
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Turn Arsenal into a regular top 4 side? That's what good managers do - they elevate the footballers and clubs they work with/at, to a strong degree. Arteta has received strong backing and hasn't yet cracked top 4 even once. There are some decent signs (last years run of form and some smart signings) but he has to at some point surely deliver.

Isn't that always how it is? You can't be deemed to be very good at management unless you do very good things. Unless one bases it on who you've worked with previously / hype.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Turn Arsenal into a regular top 4 side? That's what good managers do - they elevate the footballers and clubs they work with/at, to a strong degree. Arteta has received strong backing and hasn't yet cracked top 4 even once. There are some decent signs (last years run of form and some smart signings) but he has to at some point surely deliver.

Isn't that always how it is? You can't be deemed to be very good at management unless you do very good things. Unless one bases it on who you've worked with previously / hype.
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Yep, hence why I think our notoriously poor starts under him will finally get him this season.

Bottling 4th last season was one thing, because it was largely unexpected that we'd be in the driver's seat for most of the second half of the season. Dropping into 5-6th also rans for this season is the death knell.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Turn Arsenal into a regular top 4 side? That's what good managers do - they elevate the footballers and clubs they work with/at, to a strong degree. Arteta has received strong backing and hasn't yet cracked top 4 even once. There are some decent signs (last years run of form and some smart signings) but he has to at some point surely deliver.

Isn't that always how it is? You can't be deemed to be very good at management unless you do very good things. Unless one bases it on who you've worked with previously / hype.
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Thanks for the genuine reply. I just think on here he's judged harshly. If you think he's now up against 4 of the best managers in the game now in Pep, Klopp, Tuchel & Conte with Ten Hag also the potential to be seen as that, yet he's often described as poor or even shit.

And I get your point, good managers elevate their team a good bit, but by that token would elite managers like the ones mentioned not do the same thing but to an even better level? Just think it's not as black and white as what's made out in here, ie he must be poor / shit because he can't overtake 4 of the best managers in the game.
 
TheReligion said:
I think Arteta has surely got to deliver top 4 this season minimum no?

He’s been at the club longer than Tuchel, Conte and Ten Hag whilst spending a fortune on players. Yes, there was a big job to do but any bigger than whats been going on at United and Spurs?

I don’t think he’s a terrible manager but like others I see many parallels with Ole. I appreciate he won the FA cup but it seems with Arteta there’s always a false dawn. A great winning streak followed by form dropping off a cliff. It happened yet again at the end of last season during the battle for top 4.

Perhaps they’ll overcome that drop/dip and have a successful season, who knows, but I won’t be fully convinced until they have done as it’s been a repeat problem for nearly 4 years is it now?
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He has spent enough. Basically replaced the entire starting 11 and then some. The squad has few legacy players left. Its an Arteta squad now.
 
GoonerBear said:
And what it ETH can't break the top 3 / 4, how will he be judged?
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Poorly, the same way Arteta is. ETH has won league titles and has taken teams with modest budgets in comparison to levels where they are competing head to head with the best in Europe. The same can't be said for Arteta who by all accounts has been backed, especially by an Arsenal manager's standards and has failed so far.

That being said - if he spends a good amount of money and can't even make the CL - then that would be a failure of a season.
 
According to transfer market.

Ole - €458.6m in almost 3 years.
Arteta - €361.98 (so far) 2.5 years
Conte - €151.2 (not sure if Romero has been made permanent) in 8 months.
 
Womp said:
Poorly, the same way Arteta is. ETH has won league titles and has taken teams with modest budgets in comparison to levels where they are competing head to head with the best in Europe. The same can't be said for Arteta who by all accounts has been backed, especially by an Arsenal manager's standards and has failed so far.

That being said - if he spends a good amount of money and can't even make the CL - then that would be a failure of a season.
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I understand ETH volume of work, that's why I asked the initial question about Arteta, because obviously he's no body of work to fall back on.

I know ETH had a great first season in the Champions League, I think since it's been about par, getting knocked out the group staje the next 2 seasons and first knockout by Benfica last season. Don't even think the Europa League runs were that good after the Champions League knockouts.

But I do get the excitement around him, and I'm very interested to see how he does. I think breaking the top 2 is a big ask, even top 3 or 4 will be tough. I certainly don't think it would make him a poor manager if he doesn't given the competition.
 
GoonerBear said:
Thanks for the genuine reply. I just think on here he's judged harshly. If you think he's now up against 4 of the best managers in the game now in Pep, Klopp, Tuchel & Conte with Ten Hag also the potential to be seen as that, yet he's often described as poor or even shit.

And I get your point, good managers elevate their team a good bit, but by that token would elite managers like the ones mentioned not do the same thing but to an even better level? Just think it's not as black and white as what's made out in here, ie he must be poor / shit because he can't overtake 4 of the best managers in the game.
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Well Ole eventually got his team to second place. And we all agree he wasn’t a good manager. So…
 
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