Not Mourinho - but plenty of fans around here seem to be smitten with the old Fergie era youth player, local lad nostalgia that seems to be intoxicating their logic about which defender we should buy.
Michael Keane| signed to Everton.
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Not Mourinho - but plenty of fans around here seem to be smitten with the old Fergie era youth player, local lad nostalgia that seems to be intoxicating their logic about which defender we should buy.
We aren't and we will never aim for that under Mourinho. He is a manager who hates to rotate, he won UCL once using just 15 players or so.
Tuanzabe and TFM might play a role next season as fifth choice CBs. Mourinho played a young Varane, he might decide to play them if they are good enough.
Rojo has been almost flawless this entire season, far better than Keane has ever been. He has also reached a world cup final and two Copa America finals, something that Keane won't ever reach.
And why we wouldn't want a Bonucci or Godin as a first teamer? Being a top 3 - top 5 CB in the world and at least a couple of levels above any of our CBs isn't enough anymore?
He's already got a partner for Baiily in Rojo. These two could go on to be one of the elite partnerships in world football. Therefore if we want to buy a new CB, he would need to be top level and world class (or at a minimum knocking on the door of being world class).
We can, but why would we do that? Keane isn't an upgrade on Smalling (or even Jones when Jones is fit), so what is the point?
Btw, I am coming here as rating Smalling but I never did. Even last season when Redcafe lost its shit for Smalling, I was saying that he didn't perform as good as Blind and isn't a long time solution. So, I am hardly his biggest fan, but saying that, he still is a better player than Keane.
So, why would we do a costly downgrade for a player that just happened to come from our academy? It makes no sense at all.
Manchester United has the highest salary budget in the world with little talent to show for it. I believe we’re going to see some serious restructuring going on, with plenty of players leaving. That doesn’t only include the so called stars on huge salary (ex Rooney) but also many squad players such as Young.
Keane is young, dependable and on a low salary. He won’t mind being a backup player and he don’t mind being paid as so.
And lets stop mentioning players who can’t even do the job at Championship Level. We're better off selling them with a buy back clause just in case they will one day be good enough for us
Woodward and Jose already said there won't be wholesale changes, so you would be disappointed if you are expecting one.
Re CBJ, lets see how it goes. Like I said there are plenty of examples.
I wouldn't mind signing Keane but hopefully its not just to add numbers.
As said, I won't be surprised if his attitude change especially after this season. Mou had always kept tabs on the EPL. He knows that these waves of injuries are common with us.
We currently have only 1 fit CB. However many times had Tuanzebe and TFM played?
Rojo didn't even started as a first teamer this season. He gave us a couple of decent months on top of nearly 2 years were he was cack. He might be decent enough as backup. There again homegrown/English decent backup > foreign decent backup
I never said that. All I am saying is that if we need a world class experienced leader at the back then we might build a young defense around him. This might be our last chance to make some decent money out of 27 year old Smalling and Rojo.
But he aint a top level cb like a vidic or ferdinand to form a soild partnership with bailly, He is more of a right footed rojo. He wont upgrade the defense , but just add numbers , while a squad role will also block his progress and england national team chances. He'd be a fitter upgrade on jones but that's it.
And I still remember SAF shouting at journalist for merely asking if Veron was for sale. A month later he was sold. A week is a long time in football
And I suspect no one will be asking him to be so. As backup he'll be asked to be
a- happy to be a backup player - check
b- young and willing to improve - check
c- willing to be paid as a backup player - check
the fact he's homegrown and he's built for the EPL is a big bonus.
How I think should be our priority about defenders:
1) World class (or close) reliable experienced players: Bonucci, Godin or even Pepe.
2) Yound CBs with world class potential: Gimenez, Varane, Laporte etc
3) Very good CBs who can do a solid job: Van Dijk, Manolas, Sokratis etc
4) Decent CBs: Keane
Essentially, there are 10+ players who I would sign before Keane. Keane would have made sense if we never sold him and kept him as fourth/fifth choice CB under a great partnership (Rio-Vidic), essentially what Evans was supposed to be (and Keane is nowhere as good as Evans was at his age). But spend 30m pounds for just a decent CB who isn't even an upgrade on Smalling or Jones (when fit)? Madness.
1) World class (or close) reliable experienced players: Bonucci, Godin or even Pepe.
2) Yound CBs with world class potential: Gimenez, Varane, Laporte etc
3) Very good CBs who can do a solid job: Van Dijk, Manolas, Sokratis etc
4) Decent CBs: Keane
Essentially, there are 10+ players who I would sign before Keane. Keane would have made sense if we never sold him and kept him as fourth/fifth choice CB under a great partnership (Rio-Vidic), essentially what Evans was supposed to be (and Keane is nowhere as good as Evans was at his age). But spend 30m pounds for just a decent CB who isn't even an upgrade on Smalling or Jones (when fit)? Madness.
But we dont need back ups , we need top cb's partner ship for bailly with smalling being dodgy, Also for keane personally the progress of his career will be a side wardstep rather than a forward. Playing day in day out for a club like everton or west ham gives him more exp and spotlight than playing back up role in united and hurting england chances while we only get a back up and not a main top cb for that money
Victor Lindelof is somewhere in between and the most likely to join.
I think we need both. We need to have a top quality CB to partner Bailly and stop this musical chairs in defense once and for all. We also need 4 reliable CBs who don't break in pieces when we need them the most. All must be achieved by paying decent salary/fees which would allow us enough budget (wage and fees) to spend most of the dosh elsewhere.
I really doubt that we were ever interested on him. I mean, he's neither that good, not proven, while being experienced. And he plays for Benfica, a team that we never signed a player from, despite that we are always linked with their players.
In my list, he's category 4.
I don't think United really need another CB but if it means the end of Jones then I'm for it.
Was bailly proven? He was a squad player, We got vidic from russia . Benfica had some good players like renato sanchez, semendo for who everyone is crazy for at united, ederson as keeper. they made into the last 16 of the ucl this year as they were solid defensively. He is a physical defender with clean ball winning ability without commiting fouls , he is a ball playing defender too and strong in the air. He aint a category 4.
but we've got Tuanzebe and TFM. Sure, no one had dared playing them throughout the entire 90 minutes and Mou does prefer playing a midfielder in defense then them but we're 100% certain that they are mint. Same with CBJ and that despite he was miserable with Wolves. The hype is strong in them.
How quick is Keane? Aside from Blind, Rojo is probably our slowest CB and hes no slouch. Keane has looked decent playing a team that plays a deep defensive line, will his pace allow him to play a team that is on the front foot for the majority of games, with CBs often playing nearer the centre circle than their own goal.
There is a difference between needs and wants. Once we a have a top cb , the other 2 or 3 are just a back ups with different qualities who can also be useful in different positions and systems. Upgrading backups is rarely done, We go into the market to imrove, not side step.
He isn't quick. Probably Rojo-level but that's it. Smalling and Bailly are definitely faster, likely Jones too.
To be fair, his speed is probably his worst attribute.
Matey, it is Benfica. There is nothing to these rumors. We will be linked for his for the next 4 transfer window and in the end he will go to some other club.
And no, Bailly wasn't proven. That transfer came from nowhere. Doesn't mean that Mourinho will sign only unproven players though.
That would apply if
a- the other 2-3 defenders are reliable enough (both in terms of talent and in terms of reliability) to act as backup
b- they are paid on a similar payscale to backup players.
I think its not the case. Jones wont qualify for A and considering that we've got the highest salary bill in European football I won't be surprised if Smalling, Jones and Rojo are paid alot more then your typical backup player.
We need to understand that after the mid 2000s the biggest problem in terms of keeping/buying players was not the fee but the salary. A 100k a week player would cost the club 4.8m a year which is the equivalent of 22.5m in 5 years. We're talking of a Lingard here not an Ibrahimovic. Therefore, if for example Rojo is being paid 150k a week for being a backup player and Keane would settle for the same role for just 60k a week than the club would be sparing alot of ££££
Do people actually believe he's better than Smalling or Jones or is it wishful optimism about a homegrown lad?
Isn't it the case of Burnley's system suiting him well, much like how Stoke's system suits Shawcross?
If Keane wouldn't mind being a backup, why did he leave? I don't think he wants to be a backup at all.
Isn't it the case of Burnley's system suiting him well, much like how Stoke's system suits Shawcross?
If Keane wouldn't mind being a backup, why did he leave? I don't think he wants to be a backup at all.
Its largely wishful thinking optimism about a homegrown lad combined with a healthy dose of the grass is always greener with players who don't currently play for us.
there's a difference between a backup player and a youth talent like Tuansebe whose extremely promise but get a bit more first team action as a common supporter.
You shouldn't talk about Keane as a backup player but a first team player. He's been capped twice this season and presumably is wanted by teams. He probably fancies himself starting for Arsenal, Liverpool or even Chelsea (instead of Cahill) considering what they are playing currently. Looking further down the table you have Southampton who'll have to replace Van Dijk (probably the most sought after defender in the league) or West Brom who just gave their 37 year old CB an extension. Maybe even Koeman is looking for a CB. He'll need one if he wants to play with 3 at the back because Jagielka is aging like normal humans tend to do.
Not that it really matters how good Jones really is because he's never fit.
Being a backup player in a top modern football side is not a bad thing. A backup player would still get alot of games as shown by the likes of Phil Nev, Ole and Fletcher who were all backup players for most of their career with us. Keane will have to decide whether he comes to United as a backup player and then work his way up or else go to Everton and be a first teamer from day 1.
Smalling and Jones need to replaced/relegated, as they are not good enough and worse still spend a lot of time out injured. How good a player is becomes moot when he spends most of his time on the physio table.
Rojo should be a backup CB imo. I dont see him improving much beyond what he has shown this season. But he is very good and suited to be that 3rd choice CB so that the quality of the defence doesn't drop much when either of the starting choices are absent due to suspension, injury, or NT (bailly ACN every 2 yrs)
If we exclude Smalling and Jones, we would need one world class CB that will be the defensive leader and organize the defence and another that is willing to be 4th choice but good enough to fill in. Keeping in mind that other top clubs like Madrid, ManCity, Chelsea etc are likely to be in the market as well.
Personally, I am fine with Lindelof+Keane. The former has shown enough talent at his age to expect him to develop to be a world class CB in a few seasons. His release clause is said to be about £40m.
Gimenez is another possibility I like, but with Godin declining with age, I just dont see Pathetico selling their best CB prospect unless he forces a move and/or we meet his release clause (reported to be £56m). He can also be a bit rash and think Lindelof will complement Bailly better.
Godin is too old and slow, while Bonucci has no reason to leave Juve, and if he does, I think Chelsea/Conte would be his preferred destination. Van Dijk is overrated imo.
For those that say Keane is not good enough (to be the 4th choice), who are the 2 CBs that are available that they would sign over him? As for the price tag, I think we would get a lower price than other clubs as the kid seems to prefer coming back to united. Also, we probably have a few players that would interest Burnley and I think it would be more beneficial long term to Burnley to not try to gouge us over a player we sold to them cheap. Of course, if another team is willing to cough up the cash, and the sell on clause is valid, then we might be better off taking the cash option.
Rojo should be a backup CB imo. I dont see him improving much beyond what he has shown this season. But he is very good and suited to be that 3rd choice CB so that the quality of the defence doesn't drop much when either of the starting choices are absent due to suspension, injury, or NT (bailly ACN every 2 yrs)
If we exclude Smalling and Jones, we would need one world class CB that will be the defensive leader and organize the defence and another that is willing to be 4th choice but good enough to fill in. Keeping in mind that other top clubs like Madrid, ManCity, Chelsea etc are likely to be in the market as well.
Personally, I am fine with Lindelof+Keane. The former has shown enough talent at his age to expect him to develop to be a world class CB in a few seasons. His release clause is said to be about £40m.
Gimenez is another possibility I like, but with Godin declining with age, I just dont see Pathetico selling their best CB prospect unless he forces a move and/or we meet his release clause (reported to be £56m). He can also be a bit rash and think Lindelof will complement Bailly better.
Godin is too old and slow, while Bonucci has no reason to leave Juve, and if he does, I think Chelsea/Conte would be his preferred destination. Van Dijk is overrated imo.
For those that say Keane is not good enough (to be the 4th choice), who are the 2 CBs that are available that they would sign over him? As for the price tag, I think we would get a lower price than other clubs as the kid seems to prefer coming back to united. Also, we probably have a few players that would interest Burnley and I think it would be more beneficial long term to Burnley to not try to gouge us over a player we sold to them cheap. Of course, if another team is willing to cough up the cash, and the sell on clause is valid, then we might be better off taking the cash option.
The way I see it - we won't find a better defender long-term than Bailly. He can be that good...he is not the best right now, but I can't think of a single defender with a higher potential. Rojo will probably be out 5-6 months, so he will be out until well into the next season. Is Keane better than Smalling and Jones ? He might be....and he most certainly is less injury-prone. He has hardly missed a match over the last 2 seasons. And unlike our other defenders, he actually poses a threat on set-pieces.
So I am not saying he is the best defender in the world, but I don't see the need for us to spend £50 million on one of those defenders who maybe would have improved us, because I don't think our central defenders need that much improvment.
I don't know why LvG sold him for a measly sum when Keane himself only wanted to go out on loan for playing time and come back to United after that. We could have got him back for free as a much more experienced and accomplished player
I agree. We likely will spend a lot of money to attack and midfield next summer. So Pepe with a free transfer would be a perfect solution. He's still good and maybe have couple of good seasons left. But it's a different thing will he get new contract from Real. If not, then it's not impossible idea.
At 34, Pepe is well past it and was behind Varane when Mourinho was at Madrid. His best quality was his athleticism and he has declined as he has aged. He also has his injury issues (though not as bad as Smalling or Jones) and I expect it to worsen with age.
Also, successful CB pairing often complement each other e.g. Vidic+Rio, Pique+Mascherano etc. One of the problems Madrid had with Ramos+Pepe was that both were time bombs as either could be easily sent off at any point. With an agressive and athletic Bailly, he should be paired with a calmer presence to get the best out of him.
Varane has the talent but he is as much injury prone as Jones. He wouldn't be on the pitch long enough for a starting CB.
I like Laporte and think he would complement bailly well. He is also left footed. But seems he is not keen on leaving Bilbao, as he turned down an opportunity to join Barca and renewed his contract with a €65m release clause. Pep also seems interested him.
Hopefully we've simply faked our interest to generate the bidding war, which maximises our 25% sell-on.
Nice work United.
Nice work United.
I haven't caught too much of Keane this season, how much better is he from when he left?
A solid PL defender. He's not exactly fleet footed on the ground but he's relatively comfortable on the ball and at defending. I don't think there's anything to suggest he is any better than Jones or Smalling, but it seems like he'd probably replace one of those as a first team option seeing as they're not relentless warriors.
Carragher knows. One of the reason I don't want Keane is our history with Smalling, Shaw and Jones.
Another overrated player playing for a very defensive team.
Our recent English signings have been bang average.
I'd rather look elsewhere.
I'd let him go LFC.
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