I'm sure there are loads of players in the same age category as Bailly 12 months ago who are just coming into good form. The question is whether we should buying established world class players or bringing back local castaways for nostalgic reasons.
Michael Keane| signed to Everton.
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I'm sure there are loads of players in the same age category as Bailly 12 months ago who are just coming into good form. The question is whether we should buying established world class players or bringing back local castaways for nostalgic reasons.
Well that's not really the question at all, is it? Because Bailly wasn't an "established world class player" yet looks like being an excellent signing and if Mourinho really does want to sign Keane then I sincerely doubt he's doing it for nostalgic reasons.
There's a debate to be had over whether we're better off looking to get some experience into our backline and sign someone a few years older but it's also possible that we're giving up on Smalling and Jones, so could end up signing two central defenders anyway.
Its a different situation now in that we already have Bailly and Rojo who are two established stars, whereas 12 months we didn't have Bailly and Rojo was deemed not good enough. Since we already have both, along with Smalling, Jones, Blind and two good youth players, the only reason we should consider buying is because there is a bonafide world class player available - not because of the identity politics or nostalgia or wanting to have a local kid come back.
Once again, what makes you think Mourinho would sign a player for nostalgic reasons? As for identity politics, wtf?
Also, I would be amazed if Smalling, Jones and Blind are all at this club next season.
If he was being brought in to replace one of Smalling or Jones then it would be ok I guess, but not as the main CB signing, for once me and Raoul agree, we need a more proven option back there to help Bailly who is immense physically but still rash and young.
Keane is good and he's going to be very good. I've been singing his praises ever since he partnered Wes Morgan at Leicester while out on loan. Leicester didn't go up that season but they did have the best defensive record in the division. I said not long after that, that he'd one day play for England, and I was astounded when we let him go for such a pathetic fee.
With all that said, he isn't what we need right now. We've already got four good centre halves that defend well. We already have one of the best defensive records in Europe, which will remain even when we inevitably improve the attacking side of our game.
If we're going to buy a centre half this summer - which is certainly practical given that Rojo is out long term and Jones just can't stay fit - then this player needs to be better than what we have. Keane isn't that player. I don't think he'll ever be better than Smalling and Jones (when fit) either.
I know that pretending as if both Smalling and Jones are morons is in, but they're a hell of a lot better than the credit they get. They aren't protected by performing relatively well at a Burnley, or a Southampton. They're held to a much higher standard. Honestly, plonk the pair of them down elsewhere in the league and many of the same people that criticise them (and some of the very same people that would likely want Keane to return) would be full of praise for the dominating performances they would put in at a West Brom, or a Stoke.
I've got lots of time for Keane, like I said. And if he replaced Jones on the basis of fitness then that's kind of understandable. But he isn't better defensively, not a chance. If we're buying defenders then they've got to improve the first team. If not, then what's the point?
With all that said, he isn't what we need right now. We've already got four good centre halves that defend well. We already have one of the best defensive records in Europe, which will remain even when we inevitably improve the attacking side of our game.
If we're going to buy a centre half this summer - which is certainly practical given that Rojo is out long term and Jones just can't stay fit - then this player needs to be better than what we have. Keane isn't that player. I don't think he'll ever be better than Smalling and Jones (when fit) either.
I know that pretending as if both Smalling and Jones are morons is in, but they're a hell of a lot better than the credit they get. They aren't protected by performing relatively well at a Burnley, or a Southampton. They're held to a much higher standard. Honestly, plonk the pair of them down elsewhere in the league and many of the same people that criticise them (and some of the very same people that would likely want Keane to return) would be full of praise for the dominating performances they would put in at a West Brom, or a Stoke.
I've got lots of time for Keane, like I said. And if he replaced Jones on the basis of fitness then that's kind of understandable. But he isn't better defensively, not a chance. If we're buying defenders then they've got to improve the first team. If not, then what's the point?
I'm not interested in Mourinho's rationale, although I'm sure he would sign a player if he thought he was good enough. But its obvious that anyone promoting the resigning of Keane is doing so because he's a local kid, which is mindbendingly irrational at a time when we are teetering on the edge of making it back into the CL. If he's that good then buy him, but let's not pretend our interest has nothing to do with the nostalgia of wanting a local kid back as opposed to the rational logic that he will actually improve us.
You're confusing "reasons why we should sign him" with "reasons fans would be pleased that we signed him".
If Mourinho thinks he's worth a bid, then he will be bidding for him because he will improves us a team. If that happens, I'll be pleased to have a homegrown player back in the fold but that's not why I think we should sign him. It was the same with Pogba. He was signed because of his ability as a footballer. The fact he was "coming home" made it sweeter for us fans but wasn't the reason Mourinho wanted to sign him.
I trust Mourinho's judgement anyway but when it comes to defenders, even more so.
I agree with this. We have just about the best defense in the league this year so its not exactly a priority to buy more squad players there. If we buy, then it needs to be a top of the line player like Bonucci or Godin.
The fact he's homegrown is a bonus, no more or less.
Is Smalling and Jones weren't made of glass, then there's a good argument that we don't need to sign anyone at all. But they are, so...
I agree, I wouldn't be pissed if we bought him if Mourinho decides that's the direction he wants to go. But before that happens, we can have a healthy debate about the pros and cons of buying vs other defenders. If for example, Jose plans on selling Jones and Blind and wants to bring back Keane to back up Bailly and Rojo then that would be logical. But if he wants to buy him with the expectation that he will be our starting CB, then there are far better options we can pursue.
Yeah like I said above, if he's planning on selling Jones, Smalling, or Blind then buying a squad player makes sense. If we're not planning on selling anyone then it doesn't make so much sense to buy Keane as a squad player.
I think we're on common ground here. I'd be more than happy with Bailly, Keane and two seasoned central defenders in their prime. That would be a perfect mix at the back. Smalling and Rojo are both the closest we have right now to ticking the "in their prime" box but it's too big a risk to rely on them both for the start of next season. I also think Jones is on borrowed time. We've established that Mourinho isn't overly patient with injured players (to put it mildly!) so I can't see him being willing to give both Jones and Smalling yet another season to prove that their recurrent sick-note seasons of the past few years are anomalies.
Thought about posting that, but a random United fan saying that on twitter didn't convince me.
Lol yeah wouldn't have posted it if the user hadn't posted a picture. Maybe she did ask. Though it probably means nothing
When he played for our youth team, I was highly impressed. Always thought he was the best of that bunch. I thought he had a chance at being a future Utd captain. I say bring him back.
Lol yeah wouldn't have posted it if the user hadn't posted a picture. Maybe she did ask. Though it probably means nothing
I'm sure she did, but that answer was probably her own creation to gain followers.
I see that Smalling is probably front and centre in the round-robin, whipping boy stakes, after Rojo and Darmian took that particular mantle last season.
I'll be shocked if he leaves this summer - and, as it stands, Michael Keane is not a better defender than him.
Jones, however, because of his worst fitness record might be under more scrutiny. Defence, though, is the least of our problems. Jose resilient drills do eventually get through to the players and we're now seeing a decent structure to build on in terms of going forward and improving our attacking play.
I'll be shocked if he leaves this summer - and, as it stands, Michael Keane is not a better defender than him.
Jones, however, because of his worst fitness record might be under more scrutiny. Defence, though, is the least of our problems. Jose resilient drills do eventually get through to the players and we're now seeing a decent structure to build on in terms of going forward and improving our attacking play.
Mourinho will be making decisions mainly on what he's seen this season, where Jones has been a better defender than Smalling and not much more injury prone. If he's on dodgy ground then Smalling is too.
He's not the commanding center back we need, he's not even good enough for us. But he has improved & is doing well at Burnley.
I'm sure she did, but that answer was probably her own creation to gain followers.
Haha probably. Anyway I think most have ignored it anyway
.Haha probably. Anyway I think most have ignored it anyway
It is an interesting scenario though. A young, talented English international entering the last year of his contract.
Don't agree. Smalling has been better than Jones, but not by much.
Think he will definately end up here the more I think about it. It won't be an outrageous fee and Jose will get rid of Smalling or Jones (I think it'll be Smalling - Jose praised Jones before for playing through pain with Rojo).
It'll be great to see him, Pogba, Lingard, Rashford in the first team, with the likes of Fosu-Mensah, Pereira, Tuanzebe as squad players.
I'm not convinced Keane will be signed to be a starter - I think Jose will keep faith with Rojo and Bailly.
It'll be great to see him, Pogba, Lingard, Rashford in the first team, with the likes of Fosu-Mensah, Pereira, Tuanzebe as squad players.
I'm not convinced Keane will be signed to be a starter - I think Jose will keep faith with Rojo and Bailly.
Don't think we need him. If there's a genuinely top class centre back available, fine, otherwise we should stick with what we have at the back.
I don't think it's the same. The little I saw Bailly last season, he showed that crazy ceiling that he could stand his ground against the top attackers. You can go back the EL semi last season even L'pool fan noticed how beastly he was.
Jones had that kind of performance where he dominated Rooney which prompted SAF to chase for his signature. Here we talked about raw players who through sheer potential could impact in game.
Keane is good but is kind of Cahill's good. You can see that he is cultured to play the game so I am not sure about the ceiling of his potential. I wouldn't say no to big money signings, but not for squad material.
There are definitely better options out there, although they would cost more as well. Depending on our other targets, it could be that Keane is seen not only as a feel good story, but value for money (relatively speaking). Despite the club's significant resources, I don't believe that the budget is limitless.
Is he any worse than Gary Cahill was when he went to Chelsea? That was seen as a somewhat underwhelming signing at the time. I believe Cahill was around 26 when AVB brought him in. He was a good, but not great, Premier League defender. While he's never been great, he's improved during his time at Chelsea and has been a solid defender for quite a while now. Could Keane follow that same sort of path?
Ultimately, I think Jose will get rid of Smalling and Blind, and likely Jones. He's worked with them for many months now, and will have made his mind up about them. Blind is just not his sort of defender at all. Smalling has been adequate at best, and I suspect that Jose questions his toughness. I have a feeling that Jose likes Jones, but his inability to stay healthy may seal his fate. Over the next couple of windows, I can see all three of them going. If so, then bringing Keane in now may make sense, with a view of adding another central defender as well.
Is he any worse than Gary Cahill was when he went to Chelsea? That was seen as a somewhat underwhelming signing at the time. I believe Cahill was around 26 when AVB brought him in. He was a good, but not great, Premier League defender. While he's never been great, he's improved during his time at Chelsea and has been a solid defender for quite a while now. Could Keane follow that same sort of path?
Ultimately, I think Jose will get rid of Smalling and Blind, and likely Jones. He's worked with them for many months now, and will have made his mind up about them. Blind is just not his sort of defender at all. Smalling has been adequate at best, and I suspect that Jose questions his toughness. I have a feeling that Jose likes Jones, but his inability to stay healthy may seal his fate. Over the next couple of windows, I can see all three of them going. If so, then bringing Keane in now may make sense, with a view of adding another central defender as well.
Keane to United and Jones and Smalling to Burnley.
How they work out the balance on the 25% sell-on clause is anyone's guess!
How they work out the balance on the 25% sell-on clause is anyone's guess!
I don't personally think he improves us but when it comes to defenders I defer to Mourinho's judgment without any hesitation.
He did want John Stones for Chelsea...
I feel Keane is another Stones. Overhyped by the English media and nothing really special.
He also signed Ben Haim and Boulahrouz during his first stint. Certainly not infallible it seems although maybe Abramovich was behind those punts.
I think people overrated Smalling here. Yes he had a great season under LVG but the circumstance has changed and it's clear that he doesn't fit with the mould of defenders that would thrive under Mourinho. You can have all the natural talent in the world and it would still be useless if you don't fit with how the manager wants to play. I wouldn't sign Keane because we have Tuanzebe and Williams who are better than Keane was at the same age but Keane would be a handy, though not the best, option.
Join the dots, all of these players leaving 'for the good of their career' boils down to the fact that LVG wouldn't have picked them and made it known inside the walls that leaving was their only option. I don't disagree that moving away from the club was right in that point of time because LVG was a massive mentalist and didn't do any kind of man-management at all. But there would have been nothing stopping him moving on loan and then being in our squad when Mourinho arrived. Same with a few other of our players that coincidentally "had to leave for the good of their career".
Reasons why I think he can be a good signing:
It's just annoying of the fact that both Smalling and Jones are struggling to stay fit, and we need a backup who can stay fit and available anytime. So I'll say yes. And with Mourinho being a great coach in defending, he will improve Keane as long as he doesn't become another injury prone player like Smalling and Jones.
- Better with the ball than Jones and Smalling
- So far it seems that's he's not an injury prone unlike Jones and Smalling
- Available cheap for a young English centre back (not to mention we put a sell clause)
- Home grown and from our own academy
- He's not better than Smalling and Jones
- Still too young and inexperienced
It's just annoying of the fact that both Smalling and Jones are struggling to stay fit, and we need a backup who can stay fit and available anytime. So I'll say yes. And with Mourinho being a great coach in defending, he will improve Keane as long as he doesn't become another injury prone player like Smalling and Jones.
He wasn't good enough three years ago to play for a team like United and he's not good enough now to play for us either.
Don't care If he's English or not, we should be buying players without the need of thinking about his nationality because it seems to me that's the only reason we would be willing to buy him as he's home grown
Don't care If he's English or not, we should be buying players without the need of thinking about his nationality because it seems to me that's the only reason we would be willing to buy him as he's home grown
Get him. Sell the two soft injury prone centre backs we have. Use Keane as a third centre back option.
I'm not so sure he wasn't good enough for us. Van Gaal has weird tastes in footballers. Where are Tyler Blackett and Reece James today?
I'm not so sure he wasn't good enough for us. Van Gaal has weird tastes in footballers. Where are Tyler Blackett and Reece James today?
I was pissed when VG played Blackett in front of him just because he was left footed. To make matters worse we sold him for peanuts and kept hold of McNair and Blackett, who were clearly less talented. Still I am not in favor of getting him back unless we let go of both Smalling and Jones. We need a world class CB, or at least someone with world class potential. Unfortunately, Keane is neither.
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Not really. How many players has mourinho actually played from the academy? You talk as if mourinho plays all youngsters he gets who impressed. Ake Bamford lukaku Bertrand are just 4 youngsters who impressed on loan being at Chelsea but mourinho completely ignored them and kept playing an over the hill Ivanovic Torres etc.
Nearly every newspaper and outlets like SSN and ESPN are reporting that we're interested in him.
I trust José's judgement on this, if there is one manager who can coach a central defender to his best ability than its someone like Mourinho. If he thinks Keane is worth it, then that's good enough for me.
I trust José's judgement on this, if there is one manager who can coach a central defender to his best ability than its someone like Mourinho. If he thinks Keane is worth it, then that's good enough for me.
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