Music Michael Jackson is Dead (All general comment)

afrocentricity said:
Just caught that in your last post, but you say it was negligent of the CPs to allow him to care for those children etc... so my point still stands, and you side stepped it. :confused:
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No I didn't side step it, I've just answered it in several posts above...The short answer is you can't be a child and have children in my view...you have to be an adult. But if he's an adult then why couldn't he see that many things he was doing were inappropriate and stop them? He picks and chooses...again, read the long post and you'll see what im tying to say
 
MockneyRevil said:
But whats the difference between me speculating the worst and you speculating the best...there's no evidence conclusively for either...My assumptions (or your interpretation of my assumptions) are based on a lot of things. The fact he outwardly changed his appearance constantly would tell even the most basic pop psycologist that all wasn't running smoothly on the inside. The fact that he continued to allow young boys to sleep with him despite charges being brought and his increasingly bizarre behaviour, to me, points to him being a very damaged individual.

Your assumptions are based on the fact he seems very nice in interviews and the fact you love his music.

There's no difference, if anything I have more to go on..At the least you have to accept he acted inappropraitely in many circumstances, no matter how you excuse them...As I said, that long post of mine is how I feel. You can disagree if you like
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I think the main difference between us is that I am not willing to condemn the guy on, as you put it yourself, unfounded failings. Maybe it's simply a case of me trying to see the best in someone and you seeing the worst.

His life was certainly unconvential and probably far from you and I would call normal....but what's normal these days? Whether he wanted to change his appearance or not is surely down to him isn't it....in this day and age millions of people are obssessed with changing their appearences in one way or another.

As for the charges, wasn't he found not guilty? I appreciate that doesn't fit in with some peoples agenda but not guilty was what he was.

At the end of the day, as I've said before nobody knows the real MJ other than those closest too him and it's very dangerous to put your faith in the newspapers to tell you the truth.
 
MockneyRevil said:
Oh I think he was probably a hugely fun father to have. but you can't always be the 'fun uncle'..Again your completely missing what Im saying.

I dont think for a second he abused his kids...not in the slightest..thats not what Im on about, I'm on about the responsibilities of an adult to teach his kids right and wrong, the consequences of their actions and whats appropriate and whats not...I think Jackson had great fun with his kids, but raising children isn't all about riding fairground rides and having fun sleepovers. There's responsibility there, a responsibility he demonstrated he didn't have by dangling one over the balcony.
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You've now made about 50 posts on this subject. Do you realise that all of your evidence is from the tabloid press?

So he hung his kid over a balcony... Can you please explain why this one wretched episode - which the child survived - is used over and over again to portray him, definitively, as a bad father?

You're so happy to bang on and on and on about the responsibilities he should have embraced as a parent, like you're Victor bloody Mature himself, yet in reality you have absolutely no idea whatsoever about how he spent one single minute as a parent.

If all you're complaining about is that he apparently displayed a recklessness with his kids a couple of times in public then take a walk outside and you'll likely see a dozen examples of worse parenting. Not that that justifies it, but why hold him to standards that the rest of us fail to meet?

I'm not for a moment the biggest fan of Michael Jackson but it's getting pretty annoying reading the likes of you going on and on about something you cannot possibly have the faintest idea about. Give it a rest.
 
Elvis said:
My point is I find it hard how people (Not you, you've explained yourself and your reasons well in this thread) expect him to have lived a normal lifestyle, or something close to a normal lifestyle, when in fact that was impossible to do.
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Fair play...I think there are a fair few who are willing to shout 'Witch' at the drop of a hat.
 
MockneyRevil said:
No I didn't side step it, I've just answered it in several posts above...The short answer is you can't be a child and have children in my view...you have to be an adult. But if he's an adult then why couldn't he see that many things he was doing were inappropriate and stop them? He picks and chooses...again, read the long post and you'll see what im tying to say
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What are you saying? It seems that you are questioning his ability to raise kids, and you doubted whether he had been properly investigated by the courts and Child Protection services. I have been reading your posts... I haven't cherry picked. If you can't address my points and account for him being allowed to raise the children and his not guilty vote other than saying 'money and power' then man up.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
You've now made about 50 posts on this subject. Do you realise that all of your evidence his from the tabloid press?

So he hung his kid over a balcony... Can you please explain why this one wretched episode - which the child survived - is used over and over again to portray him, definitively, as a bad father?

You're so happy to bang on and on and on about the responsibilities he should have embraced as a parent, like you're Victor bloody Mature himself, yet in reality you have absolutely no idea whatsoever how he spent one single minute as a parent.

If all you're complaining about is that he apparently displayed a recklessness with his kids a couple of times in public then take a walk outside and you'll likely see a dozen examples of worse parenting.

I'm not for a moment the biggest fan of Michael Jackson but it's getting pretty annoying reading the likes of you going on and on about somthing you cannot possibly have the faintest idea about. Give it a rest.
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:lol:...have a Horlicks mate.
 
Elvis said:
The baby dangling thing was heavily overplayed and anyone using it to portray him as a bad father of some sorts is an idiot.
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Was a stupid thing to do though, imagine if he had dropped the baby?
 
Alex said:
The thing is he didnt. Imagine ifs dont carry too much weight for me.
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Nah mate, it was stupid... you don't mess around like that. In his defence it looked like he clocked what he was doing and quickly pulled the baby in.
 
afrocentricity said:
Was a stupid thing to do though, imagine if he had dropped the baby?
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Come on, you can bet Jackson had a very strong arm around the baby and there was very little chance of the baby being dropped.

It was for about 2 seconds and he was showing the thousands of fans and giving them something to cheer. The way it was made out you would have thought no-one was there and he was just doing it for kicks.

I'm not condoning it, don't get me wrong, but it was heavily overplayed for the simple fact it was Michael Jackson.
 
Elvis said:
Come on, you can bet Jackson had a very strong arm around the baby and there was very little chance of the baby being dropped.

It was for about 2 seconds and he was showing the thousands of fans and giving them something to cheer. The way it was made out you would have thought no-one was there and he was just doing it for kicks.

I'm not condoning it, don't get me wrong, but it was heavily overplayed for the simple fact it was Michael Jackson.
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Sounds like you are, Elv.
 
Elvis said:
Come on, you can bet Jackson had a very strong arm around the baby and there was very little chance of the baby being dropped.

It was for about 2 seconds and he was showing the thousands of fans and giving them something to cheer. The way it was made out you would have thought no-one was there and he was just doing it for kicks.

I'm not condoning it, don't get me wrong, but it was heavily overplayed for the simple fact it was Michael Jackson.
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If you were walking down the road and you saw someone doing that you would think wtf?

He could of kept the kid on the safe side of the balcony, if he was thinking straight he probably would of done. He seemed excited so I'll put it down to that...
 
Spoony! said:
Why would a sane person do such a thing, though?

Might have had something to with the drugs he was taking.
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He was deluded, and probably addicted to pills, I have little doubt about that. In that regards he kind of reminds me of Howard Hughes, doesnt mean he raped children though.
 
afrocentricity said:
What are you saying? It seems that you are questioning his ability to raise kids, and you doubted whether he had been properly investigated by the courts and Child Protection services. I have been reading your posts... I haven't cherry picked. If you can't address my points and account for him being allowed to raise the children and his not guilty vote other than saying 'money and power' then man up.
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feck off with your man ups....I'm far more Pro-Jackson than a lot of people on here, I don't think he's molested anyone and I'm not calling him a freak or a making sick jokes...I'm simply saying that if you knew a man, who lived on your street, who was 50 and frequently had young boys stay the night with him, acted like a small child, and was physically scared after years of trying to change his appearance and had 2 children who didn't bare any biological resemblance to him you wouldn't ask a few questions? How about if he was accused of mollesting children, aquitted, but kept having them round to stay without seeing how dodgy that might look? that wouldn't bother you in the slightest?...It's nothing to do with tabloid rumors or allegations it's to do with common sense.

I'm trying to mediate, I'm not coming down particularly hard on the bloke, just asking what I see as sensible questions about the parenting abilities of a clearly troubled man with issues...but I'm now being jumped on by the ultra-pro Jacko group for being not pro enough!!...Credit to Elvis & Marching for holding a decent banter without getting emotional and insulting about it.(more aimed at BaldwinLegend than you, but still..I've been over it)
 
Why are there people in this thread trying to justify him dangling his kid out of a window? "So what, the baby didn't get hurt." is hardly enough to justify it.
 
Alex said:
He was deluded, and probably addicted to pills, I have little doubt about that. In that regards he kind of reminds me of Howard Hughes, doesnt mean he raped children though.
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Why didn't he clear his name? Why did he settle out of court with the Chandlers?
 
MockneyRevil said:
feck off with your man ups....I'm far more Pro-Jackson than a lot of people on here, I don't think he's molested anyone and I'm not calling him a freak or a making sick jokes...I'm simply saying that if you knew a man, who lived on your street, who was 50 and frequently had young boys stay the night with him, acted like a small child, and was physically scared after years of trying to change his appearance and had 2 children who didn't bare any biological resemblance to him you wouldn't ask a few questions? How about if he was accused of mollesting children, aquitted, but kept having them round to stay without seeing how dodgy that might look? that wouldn't bother you in the slightest?...It's nothing to do with tabloid rumors or allegations it's to do with common sense.

I'm trying to mediate, I'm not coming down particularly hard on the bloke, just asking what I see as sensible questions about the parenting abilities of a clearly troubled man with issues...but I'm now being jumped on by the ultra-pro Jacko group for being not pro enough!!...Credit to Elvis & Marching for holding a decent banter without getting emotional and insulting about it.

You Win, your right, the man was clearly amazing in every sense..completely there mentally and 100% certifiably fit to raise 2 children on his own without a mother...Big up!
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Calm down mate, is that what I'm coming across as? I don't see how... I'm just arguing against your point about the CPS and his abilities to raise kids, how do I sound emotional or is that just you adding that tone to my posts sub-conciously.

Christ, anyone would think me telling you to man up was a conclusive attack against your man-hood, drama queen :p
 
afrocentricity said:
If you were walking down the road and you saw someone doing that you would think wtf?
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Of course I would, because like I said, they wouldn't have thousands of fans and hundreds of paparazzi outside of their windows would they?

It was something he probably regretted and it was a silly thing to do, but to use it to label him as a bad father, which was my original point, is stupid.
 
MockneyRevil said:
Oh I think he was probably a hugely fun father to have. but you can't always be the 'fun uncle'..Again your completely missing what Im saying.

I dont think for a second he abused his kids...not in the slightest..thats not what Im on about, I'm on about the responsibilities of an adult to teach his kids right and wrong, the consequences of their actions and whats appropriate and whats not...I think Jackson had great fun with his kids, but raising children isn't all about riding fairground rides and having fun sleepovers. There's responsibility there, a responsibility he demonstrated he didn't have by dangling one over the balcony.
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When did I say he was just a fun father? :confused:

How do you know his kids don't know right from wrong? You have no idea who, beside MJ, has had an influence on them....they have a huge number of uncles/aunts/grandparents/godparents etc who will have helped in their upbringing and to judge the guy on one stupid incident that was over in seconds is a bit harsh IMO.....I remember letting my mates 6 yr old daughter jump from the top of our stairs into my arms...not the brightest thing to do on reflection and I'm sure MJ thought the same after dangling his child over the balcony.
 
Elvis said:
Of course I would, because like I said, they wouldn't have thousands of fans and hundreds of paparazzi outside of their windows would they?

It was something he probably regretted and it was a silly thing to do, but to use it to label him as a bad father, which was my original point, is stupid.
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I agree with Elvis 100% on *** one.
 
Elvis said:
Hi Spoony.

I'm not, but you can't help but think it was overplayed, no? There's far, far worse that goes unreported every day. Baby P, the baby the other day who was kicked to death, child abuse; and a whole lot more.
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Yeah but you're justifying a bit of insanity by comparing it to a child abuse case. Fact is, it was shocking to see Michael Jackson the biggest pop idol, ever, dangle a baby out of a window. As I said, I blame the drugs.
 
Elvis said:
Of course I would, because like I said, they wouldn't have thousands of fans and hundreds of paparazzi outside of their windows would they?

It was something he probably regretted and it was a silly thing to do, but to use it to label him as a bad father, which was my original point, is stupid.
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Yeah that's fair enough.
 
Marching said:
.....I remember letting my mates 6 yr old daughter jump from the top of our stairs into my arms...not the brightest thing to do on reflection and I'm sure MJ thought the same after dangling his child over the balcony.
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:lol: 'kinnel Marching, if I was there I'd have shit a brick!
 
Elvis said:
Of course things weren't running smoothly on the inside, that much is obvious by the, as you say, constant need for changing his appearance and many characteristics of his personality.

But imagine being beaten as a child and constantly being called ugly, constantly being told you had a big nose, constantly being told you weren't good enough. That is going to have a long and damaging effect; any psychologist will tell you that. I believe he went through all the changes he did because he wanted to escape from those, what must have been awful memories as a child, I think he just wanted to erase that best he could, and the only way to do so was by changing his appearance. Unfortunately though, he was never happy with how he looked; but the media constantly calling him a freak amongst a whole host of other stuff wouldn't help.

The media, I think people underestimate them and just how powerful they can be when they want. I mean for gods sake the man was famous from the age 5 onwards, all the way upto his death at 50. He was the most famous man in the world. How on earth could he ever possibly live a normal life? That's what baffles me with some people, they expect him to be normal, despite living in the most un-normal circumstances you can imagine. He never had a childhood, he was playing in strip joints at 1, 2, 3am in the morning, then his brothers would bring women back to the room they shared and have sex with them whilst he was there. He never had birthday's, christmas or anything like that, and I think that's why he created Neverland. The place was just full of all the things he never got to do as a kid, and he opened that up to kids who, mostly, were underprivileged, or orphanaged, i.e. kids who themselves would never have a proper upbringing, he just wanted to help children. He felt comfortable around them, and that's probably why he spent to much time with them, becuase he was at ease. As he said in an interview (The Bashir one I think), adults would stab him in the back and many had ulterior motives, whereas kids just wanted fun, as did Jackson. Unfortunately a few of the kids parents saw fit to try and make money off his kindness, and so his downfall began.
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Well said Elvis.
 
Spoony! said:
Why the out of court settlement? Come on, why??



There will always be a cloud over his name because of the Jordan Chandler case.
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Being accused of paedophilia is probably a hard label to shake, it died down for a bit but it would never have been forgotten.

The caf probably has the power to slander someone to a comparable extent if enough posters got behind it initially (think the kaka romours ;)), I'm not suggesting you to pick a random celeb and do this btw Spoons. Unless you want to? No really, don't....
 
Spoony! said:
Yeah but you're justifying a bit of insanity by comparing it to a child abuse case. Fact is, it was shocking to see Michael Jackson the biggest pop idol, ever, dangle a baby out of a window. As I said, I blame the drugs.
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Drugs or whatever, any cnut who would dangle his own baby over that kind of drop is a deeply deeply disturbed individual. I've got a 4 month old nipper at home and I can't even begin to understand how he could have done such a thing. For some strange reason there's a few of ye trying to gloss over what he did, to score points in the debate. Which is weird. It was fecked up, it really was.
 
MockneyRevil said:
I'm now being jumped on by the ultra-pro Jacko group for being not pro enough!!....(more aimed at BaldwinLegend than you, but still..I've been over it)
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Heh?

I'm not an 'ultra pro Jacko' fan.

I just happen to have had enough of you prattling on 'authoritatively' about something you can be definitively proven to know precisely feck all about.
 
Spoony! said:
Why the out of court settlement? Come on, why??



There will always be a cloud over his name because of the Jordan Chandler case.
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To avoid anymore drama. I doubt Kobe raped that girl but he settled out of court after being cleared. At some point it costs the celebs less in terms of cost and pain n suffering to just get some weird feck off their back than it does to go through another trial.
 
Spoony! said:
There will always be a cloud over his name because of the Jordan Chandler case.
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And if you, I or anybody else were accused of peadophillia, there would always be a cloud over our name. And as far as I am aware Jackson had wanted to go to court and not pay them off, but due to his advisors and solicitor's advice he paid them the $20m or so to make it go away (Which it never really did).

You saw what the 2005 case did to him, it bankrupted him more or less. If anything, the fact his parents accepted a pay off shows that really that's all they were there for in the first place?
 
afrocentricity said:
Being accused of paedophilia is probably a hard label to shake, it died down for a bit but it would never have been forgotten.

The caf probably has the power to slander someone to a comparable extent if enough posters got behind it initially (think the kaka romours ;)), I'm not suggesting you to pick a random celeb and do this btw Spoons. Unless you want to? No really, don't....
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The thing is, he was accused by the Chandlers(funnily enough, I don't think they were entirely innocent too). He should've cleared his name in court instead of an out of court settlement - I think it was $22m. Okay, I'll pay devil's advocate - he could've done it because he didn't want to be dragged into a long legal battle. However, settling out of court, in my opinion, is more damaging.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Drugs or whatever, any cnut who would dangle his own baby over that kind of drop is a deeply deeply disturbed individual. I've got a 4 month old nipper at home and I can't even begin to understand how he could have done such a thing. For some strange reason there's a few of ye trying to gloss over what he did. Which is weird. It was fecked up, it really was.
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Be consistent, condemn Marching too, he threw a baby down a flight of stairs once, it's true he said it.
 
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