We can sign both. We probably need to with us needing options off the right, at CM and at AM.
Mesut Ozil on a free? | Orn: Ozil signs new contract worth 350k
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We can sign both. We probably need to with us needing options off the right, at CM and at AM.
This is why we are in the situation we are in, just buying up players but not concentrating on a system that benefits what we already have, 4-2-3-1 means we might as well have not bought Pogba, in that system he'll never reach his full potential, play him in a 3 man midfield with the free role and he'll outshine Ozil with the breath of his skillset, buying a #10 means Pogba is wasted in the bulk of the games, that makes no sense to me when we could play 4-3-3 and simply buy a better RWF option than Mata who is actually a natural there rather than Ozil who is not a natural out there.
I think 4-3-1-2 can fit all best player in their natural position with fullback providing width and crosses
I think with Ozil, Eriksen and Pogba in the team would dramatically improve United's attacking and creating a lot of chance for them.
De Gea
RB option Bailly Jones LB option
New CM Matic Pogba
Ozil
Lukaku Martial
I think we should get Eriksen, he has the ability to mark like Herrera, interception and can play playmakers, his best position is in right midfield like Pogba is in left midfield. if there's available CM on the market better than Eriksen, I'm all for it. RB option Bailly Jones LB option
New CM Matic Pogba
Ozil
Lukaku Martial
I think with Ozil, Eriksen and Pogba in the team would dramatically improve United's attacking and creating a lot of chance for them.
Buying Ozil gives us tactical flexibility. We could play in a 4231 formation and have a superior CAM option, or perhaps even play Ozil in a midfield alongside Pogba and ahead of Matic, similar to how City play with a midfield of KDB and Silva in front of Fernandinho. On paper perhaps you could argue that's defensively weak, but it clearly works for City, as Silva and KDB take it in turns going forward and staying back.
Mourinho has rarely stuck to one formation all season and he's generally been quite tactically flexible and switches it up depending on the opposition we're playing. Bringing in Ozil for say Mata would improve our squad and, in the right formation, our team as well. You mention that Mata is a natural on the right, but I'd argue that he's not. He very rarely sticks to the right and virtually always moves centrally. The only reason he plays there is because we don't currently have a proper right winger in our squad and he's the most comfortable there due to his incredible technical ability. I also want us to bring in a proper right winger, but I see no reason to suggest why Ozil can't be just as good, if not better than Mata on the right as a squad option. In fact, Ozil played several games on the right for Madrid. So, that's why I stated that bringing Ozil on a free is a no brainer, as it frees up money that can be spent in other positions, while bringing in an incredible play maker, which we've clearly needed this season when Pogba has been out injured.
Signing Ozil on a free allows us to sign a CM and a RW as well though. We simply need more quality players in the squad.
This one comes down to will Mourinho get the best out of him, or will we see loads of the underwhelming, seemingly "Not bothered" displays he gets abuse for.
However, he's definitely got more quality than Mata and Mhky, so surely has to be a move in the right direction.
We did just see how good Pogba can be yesterday with 2 centre mids in there with him though. Unless we'd start Ozil wide, like we do with others.
It'll be interesting to watch pan out.
However, he's definitely got more quality than Mata and Mhky, so surely has to be a move in the right direction.
We did just see how good Pogba can be yesterday with 2 centre mids in there with him though. Unless we'd start Ozil wide, like we do with others.
It'll be interesting to watch pan out.
Sorry there was a miscommunication on the Mata part, I was saying bring in a RWF who is actually a natural there in place of Mata, I wasn't meaning Mata is a natural there. I am sure Ozil could operate there to some degree but like Mata it would be a square peg, we should buy a top dynamic attacker who is actually best playing there and stick to the 4-3-3 so Pogba can thrive, shunting him around all of the time will waste him, you don't do that with top players as they need consistency.
The switching formations thing isn't a great idea either, you spoil the sides rhythm, his Inter and first Chelsea side didn't do it, Makelele/Essien/Lampard were the regular midfield 3 at Chelsea and Cambiasso/Stankovic/Sneijder were the regular midfield for Inter, for us it should be Matic/New CM/Pogba with Pogba in the same role as Lampard/Sneijder in those prior sides. He used Ozil at Real because he had a proper double pivot at the base in Alonso and Khedira then Alonso/Modric, Pogba isn't suited to the pivot and needs to be free if we are to see the best of him.
We don't need all of that IMO, we need a top #8 and some DM cover for Matic and one top versatile forward like Dybala or Fekir for the front 3 which would give us Martial/Lukaku/Rashford/Lingard/Dybala/Mata as 6 options for the 3 forward spots, that's enough especially with the improvements from Martial and Lingard when allowed to play in a fluid 3 instead of streched out in the rigid 4-2-3-1.
Midfield 3 Options
Matic
New DM
Herrera
New #8
Pogba
Front 3 Options
Lukaku
Martial
New Forward
Lingard
Mata
Rashford
That's good depth with several players that should push on next season as they mature.
You are forgetting the price of this plus the fact we need another fullback...
I'm not forgetting about the price, we almost certainly wont get the DM cover, I realize that will have to wait, but the mega outlay that Jose has already said there will be on one player could be Dybala. Then Kovacic for around £40M and if the story is true then Ghoulam who has a €40M buyout clause. There's no sense in getting a player just because he's free if all he does is once again mean we have to play a formation that nullify's our best players game, Pogba is a monster and not quite 25 yet, we should be building around him being able to play in his best position every game, not force him out of position for a 30 year old #10, or play that #10 as a RWF just to force him into the team as he's free.
We need to start building the team to be more than the sum of it's parts, not adding shniny toys whether they actually benefit the system that suits the young talents we already have, because take Pogba aside for a moment, the 4-3-3 is also best for Martial and Lingard and I'd argue Lukaku who played his best stuff with those 2 near him vs Arsenal, rather than isolated as a lone striker target which is not suited to his strengths despite his size.
Your ideas are around getting players like Kovacic and Dybala who may not be attainable. I thought Ghoulam’s release clause is 60 million?
We can use Ozil behind the striker. We can use him in the Mata role on the right. Signing another CM will allow us to play with a 3 in midfield and also an option to replace Pogba if he is out.
RW option will probably be a young talent who doesn't have to play every week.
I can largely agree to this comment. The thing is though, imo our squad still needs a playmaker that can take some of the creative responsibilities from Pogba. At the moment, we're largely looking to Pogba for a creative spark and when he's not on form or is shackled by defensive responsibility, we struggle as a team. I acknowledge your comparisons with the midfield 3 at Chelsea and Inter, but let's look at Pogba and when he's been so successful. At Juve, the midfield that was really dominant was Pirlo/Pogba/Vidal, where Pirlo was the DLP, Vidal the B2B and took on most of the defensive responsibilities and Pogba was allowed to roam further forward and have more a free role. The problem with this in comparison with our current squad is that we neither have a Pirlo type player or a Vidal. As solid as Matic is, he really doesn't have the legs to cover the ground Vidal did (Herrera isn't the same level) and we have no midfielder even close to the technical prowess of Pirlo. So even though it's great wanting Pogba to have that free roaming midfield role, we would still need 2 other specialist midfielders for that to work for the large part.
The market is extremely inflated right now and getting the midfielders we need would be extremely difficult and very costly, especially considering we would require 2/3 additional players in other positions. Another option we could take and is the likelier option given Mourinho's latest comments is in signing only 1 midfielder: either a dynamic midfielder that can do a lot of the dirty work in midfield (I like the look of Lucas Torreira) or a technically more sound midfielder with a solid passing range (we've been linked with Jorginho). This can be followed up by signing Ozil for free to add further creative spark, so as to not be as reliant on Pogba, if he gets injured. Getting Ozil also means that we have the option of switching to a 4231 formation and having a superior CAM if needed. Also, when we're on the ball Pogba won't be required to go deep as often as he does currently in a midfield 2, as Ozil regularly does this, meaning that Pogba can stay further forward. Having more options and being able to switch formations, without a negative impact on the team is a positive either way you look at it and getting Ozil for free means freeing up funds to improve other areas (RW, secondary striker, full backs, etc.)
You know he has already worked under Mourinho, right?
Yes, before spending a few seasons under Wenger, where he's largely been coasting.
Given that he has already worked under Mourinho, why do you think he can't?
I was just giving them as examples, I also listed several alternatives to Dybala in one of the other posts, and instead of Kovacic it could be Jorginho or Weigl.
If we use Ozil behind the striker then we shackle Pogba, so it would mean mostly using him in Mata's role, a role in which there are several better options as Ozil is really a pure #10, basically trying to shoehorn him in means either him or Pogba play in a position that doesn't get the optimal best out of either of them, that's not sensible use of our money IMO as lets not forget Ozil will likely be on 250K a week.
Maybe instead of buying a young RW we will give a player like Gribbin those minutes as it should be a squad role at best and we should still have Mata as the back up there.
That Juve set-up was 3 players at their ultimate cohesion I agree, but look at the current PSG as a more obtainable midfield 3, with Pogba in the Draxler role and Matic in the Rabiot role, we then look to fill the Verratti role with a player like Kovacic or Jorginho, buy Dybala/Fekir/Eriksen/Pulisic/Griezmann for the RWF forward role, then when Pogba is out any of them can play in the hole behind the striker and we have Martial to cover as the #9 for Lukaku, we can't just buy 7 players IMO, it will be a slower process, the main goal is to get the right players to benefit what we have, not just add players on a free whether they are a good fit with what we have or not.
I understand that you want Pogba to have a more ‘free role’ in midfield like yesterday. I can see where you are coming from. It’s a matter of who we can actually get though. Also, any attacker of that calibre we sign will be on 250k anyway.
My point is though we shouldn't just bring players in for the sake of it, Pogba is set to be our Captain and talisman, whoever we buy should be to accentuate him, we shouldn't bring in anyone that diminishes his role, if that means waiting and recruiting slower but more appropriately, then so be it.
It’s only your opinion that signing Ozil is for the ‘sake of it’ though.
Can understand concerns that he'll hinder Pogba's role. Having Pogba deep isn't even balanced because he's not particularly good defensively. He often gets bypassed easily. So we could be adding more dysfunction to an already problematic situation.
Still, it's a free fecking transfer of a class player. With bargain talents, you acquire them first and find a way to fit them later. Especially since we severely lack quality.
It's all about how we use them. It only becomes a problem if we insist on playing them in dysfunctional formations every game (which judging by how we use our current crop of talent I sadly think we will.)
Still, it's a free fecking transfer of a class player. With bargain talents, you acquire them first and find a way to fit them later. Especially since we severely lack quality.
It's all about how we use them. It only becomes a problem if we insist on playing them in dysfunctional formations every game (which judging by how we use our current crop of talent I sadly think we will.)
Well lets put it this way, if we sign him we'll end up with him or Pogba as a square peg in a round hole, that's signing for the sake of it because there's no fee IMO, when there are lots of good options for he RWF role who actually suit the role.
We dont need Pogba in a ‘free role’ for every game. Most home games we will just steamroll opponents anyway. Games like yesterday we can shift the team and use Ozil like Mata.
We should always have Pogba in a free role, it's where he shines, we also saw how little he effected the game stuck in the 2 man midfield vs Burnley and Southampton, this constant formation switching is garbage as well as what happens is when we move to 4-3-3 against good teams Ozil is now out of position and the #8 we bring in to fill the midfield is someone in the middle class of Herrera, as no high quality #8 is gonna spend the bulk of games sitting on his arse. All we do by signing Ozil is dimnish Paul and continue with this disjointed formation switching and square pegs in round holes, we'll be no better off than we are right now, it makes no sense when there are half a dozen better options that actually suit playing the RWF role and will allow us to play Pogba in his best position all of the time, like top clubs do with their top players..
Exactly. He is a master of intricate passes around the opposition box. A lot of our games could use that when we just need to break teams down.
Ozil on a free is tremendous business but I'm not in favor of his signing. If we get him, that means 4-2-3-1 so he can occupy number 10 which means Pogba is back in a two man MF. I'm resigned to this happening because Jose seems to favor this setup.
Personally I'd rather see us stick with a 4-3-3 going forward and bring in a top MF to play on the right. Goretzka fits the bill, and he's still available if his agents latest comments are credible.
Unless....the plan is to have Ozil on the right of the attacking three and he has license to cut in and create. If that's the case, I'm all in favor.
Personally I'd rather see us stick with a 4-3-3 going forward and bring in a top MF to play on the right. Goretzka fits the bill, and he's still available if his agents latest comments are credible.
Unless....the plan is to have Ozil on the right of the attacking three and he has license to cut in and create. If that's the case, I'm all in favor.
Fair enough, Kovacic if he's available would fit in nicely here as a RCM. However, I'd argue all of the players you've mentioned to play on the right are better centrally. I thought a big reason you don't want Ozil is that you don't want square pegs in round holes?
Even if you're right and the worst case scenario of getting Ozil occurs, where we pay the signing bonus, agent fee and his wages and he just doesn't suit our style. The following summer we can then sell for about £25m+ and still make a profit from it all. But, I just think getting a technically gifted player like Ozil is a no brainer for playing reasons alone, never mind for financially advantageous reasons in addition.
Pogba was fine at the start of the season. We play 2/3 games a week. The CM we sign wont be sitting on his arse. I am not totally against signing someone like Dyabla I just dont think it is realistic and that Ozil is. One of your biggest points is that Ozil wouldn’t be good off the right. I don’t think that is true.
If we can sign Dybala I wouldn’t be against it. He is a quality players and like you said he can play centrally and off the right. Ozil does have his advantages over Dybala as well though. Our budget seems to be about £150 million a season as well.
I think you described Eriksen, versatile players, deep playmakers and played his best form is in right midfield like Pogba is in left midfield with Matic behind protecting at back and Eriksen has a lot of attributes that are similar to Herrea's ability to man-mark, the aggressive and the interception but better playmakers, bit less defensive compared to Herrea and have a good passing, he is superior to Ozil in 3 midfield and is one of the hardest, strongest runners, the power. Pogba and Eriksen can take it in turns with free license to attack and express themselves, one of them have to cover a missing huge space left for opponents to exploit but Matic can't do all alone. We can't depend on Pogba for his creativity only because if opponents knew that he is probably most threatening to goal with his creativity, they would mark him to shut down all of his creativity. Having enough creative player in the team would cause trouble for opponents and impossible to mark all of them. Ozil can operate as a wing in 4-3-3 with Pogba, Matic and Eriksen together in 3 man midfield or as ACM/Roam behind two strikers (Martial/Rashford and Lukaku) with Pogba, Matic, and Eriksen to control the midfield in 4-3-1-2 with fullback providing attacking width and crosses. With Ozil, Pogba, Eriksen can dramatically improve our attacking and turn it into free-flowing and increase the amount of chance created by huge. Ozil would be upgraded on Mata and upgrading Herrera to Eriksen level would be best for United, if one of three injured, two can cover creativity. It would be hard to find a replacement for Pogba if their quality is similar and doubt they would want to come to join our bench.
Herrera vs Eriksen vs Mata vs Ozil
Successful Passes: 31.94 / 44.80 / 34.59 / 58.41 pass per match
Chances Created: 9 / 47 / 31 / 59
Key Passes: 8 / 42 / 28 / 54
Interception: 25 / 11 / 9 / 10
Total forward pass: 383 / 598 / 328 / 689
Tackle won: 21 / 14 9 / 12
Clearance: 13 / 14 / 7 / 6
Ariel dual won rate: 36.36% / 37.50% /33% / 11%
Herrera can give United much more protection in defensives after up goals instead of risking to gift them a goal. Herrera would be perfect sub for Ozil or Eriksen, let's say, if come in for Ozil, Herrea would take Eriksen's position as CM in 3 midfield then Eriksen can cover Ozil's position and if come in for Eriksen, Ozil will stay in this position but if Herrera comes in so that means Pogba won't need to take it in turn so can attack with free license and protected by Herrera and Matic
Not to mention that our attacker is more crucial in converting chance into a goal (22%) out of 229 chances compared to Liverpool - 17% out of 297, Arsenal - 14% out of 277, Chelsea - 15% out of 266, Spurs 15.3% out of 255, only City is better at converting chance into goal than us 22.2% out of 276 chances but with Ozil, Eriksen and Pogba together in the team could increase the amount of chance created and a key pass, that will give attacker better service compared to Mata, Mhki and Herrera and could score more goal than they are now.
Successful Passes: 31.94 / 44.80 / 34.59 / 58.41 pass per match
Chances Created: 9 / 47 / 31 / 59
Key Passes: 8 / 42 / 28 / 54
Interception: 25 / 11 / 9 / 10
Total forward pass: 383 / 598 / 328 / 689
Tackle won: 21 / 14 9 / 12
Clearance: 13 / 14 / 7 / 6
Ariel dual won rate: 36.36% / 37.50% /33% / 11%
Herrera can give United much more protection in defensives after up goals instead of risking to gift them a goal. Herrera would be perfect sub for Ozil or Eriksen, let's say, if come in for Ozil, Herrea would take Eriksen's position as CM in 3 midfield then Eriksen can cover Ozil's position and if come in for Eriksen, Ozil will stay in this position but if Herrera comes in so that means Pogba won't need to take it in turn so can attack with free license and protected by Herrera and Matic
Not to mention that our attacker is more crucial in converting chance into a goal (22%) out of 229 chances compared to Liverpool - 17% out of 297, Arsenal - 14% out of 277, Chelsea - 15% out of 266, Spurs 15.3% out of 255, only City is better at converting chance into goal than us 22.2% out of 276 chances but with Ozil, Eriksen and Pogba together in the team could increase the amount of chance created and a key pass, that will give attacker better service compared to Mata, Mhki and Herrera and could score more goal than they are now.
Eriksen would be a cracking signing, but dealing with Spurs and Levy would be a nightmare. I can only imagine how much Levy would ask us for him in this current market. Given that Coutinho will reportedly cost Barca £130m, Eriksen would probably cost about a similar amount. The likelihood is, we'd be wiser not to deal with Spurs for the most part. Jean Michael Seri is perhaps a cheaper alternative we should be looking at. Technically very sound and can play as a defensive midfielder, but is also comfortable playing further forward.
I'm semi hopeful on Kovacic, I think he'd be robust enough for the PL as well which is one of the little concerns with say Jorginho. I agree that Griezmann and Fekir are both better central but I think both are better from the RWF than Ozil would be, but I think Dybala and Pulisic are both better coming from wide, if you look at Pulisic he has played consistently on the flanks for Dortmund and Dybala has had a free role that sees him drift a lot to the RW so he can cut in at good angles to shoot with his left foot. As far as Ozil goes, if it was a guarentee he'd only play in the Mata role and that we'd stick with 4-3-3, I wouldn't like it but I'd be a lot more comfortable with it than what I fear will happen.
It's not just Pogba alone though, he is the main factor but what we have seen is this midfield 2 stuff has worn Matic out after just half a season, there is way too much free space for teams with Pogba in a 2 as he simply drifts off, and if he doesn't and sits in position then we see what we saw from him in the 2 games prior to the Everton win, he sat deep and basically just pinged balls out to the wings, it was a complete waste. I also think Lingard, Martial and Rashford are to be considered as well, none of these players are wingers, when we play 4-2-3-1 then at least 2 of them are shunted wide and they are less than they can be, but with a compact front 3 they can all link up and interchange and their games all benefit from it.
You might be right about the budget, Jose talked the other night about buying a CM and one mega money signing in the summer, that I guess would be a forward which to me is a Dybala or Griezmann which renders Ozil pointless, but lets say it's neither of them, we could buy the 3 players we need for the budget you suggest and not mess up the 4-3-3, we could get the CM, LB and Pulisic, Fekir or even Mahrez for that money, I'm not huge on Mahrez to be honest but at least RWF is his actual position and he wouldn't effect the 4-3-3 structure.
He probably has a pre-contract with someone. We just don't know who it is.
I think Levy would consider selling Eriksen if he enters into year contract left which his contract will expire in 2020. if we come for Eriksen again in 2019, I'm sure they would sell reasonable price rather than overpricing and risk of losing them out on free. I'd agree with you that dealing with Spurs would be difficult.
However, I've checked out Jean Seri's profile, his attacking stats are very similar to Pogba's stats but better offensively than Herrera, not far from Eriksen's creativity, he created the insane amount of chances per match are much higher while playing as DCM, that's unbelievable! It is sad to see that his teammate is not good at converting chance Seri created. Nice asking a price for him at 25-35m sound very cheap. Only I have concerns that that does he have all attributes he needed to play in EPL? Unfortaletly, Mourinho is not a big fan of small height and does not seem Mourinho's player type. I hope it would be signing for United only in long-term, instead of as Mourinho's signing. I think if Seri comes to United so he and new CMs have to fight for 3rd spots behind Pogba and Matic. if they all turn out really good, our midfield is sorted for the future.
Well Spurs are very good when it comes to contract situations, so if Eriksen refuses to sign a new contract and his contract does expire in 2020, I can see them selling in the summer to maintain his selling value. By 2019 summer and only 1 year left, his value would drop significantly.I think Levy would consider selling Eriksen if he enters into year contract left which his contract will expire in 2020. if we come for Eriksen again in 2019, I'm sure they would sell reasonable price rather than overpricing and risk of losing them out on free. I'd agree with you that dealing with Spurs would be difficult.
However, I've checked out Jean Seri's profile, his attacking stats are very similar to Pogba's stats but better offensively than Herrera, not far from Eriksen's creativity, he created the insane amount of chances per match are much higher while playing as DCM, that's unbelievable! It is sad to see that his teammate is not good at converting chance Seri created. Nice asking a price for him at 25-35m sound very cheap. Only I have concerns that that does he have all attributes he needed to play in EPL? Unfortaletly, Mourinho is not a big fan of small height and does not seem Mourinho's player type. I hope it would be signing for United only in long-term, instead of as Mourinho's signing. I think if Seri comes to United so he and new CMs have to fight for 3rd spots behind Pogba and Matic. if they all turn out really good, our midfield is sorted for the future.
On Seri, Barca wanted him last summer but Nice negotiated hard and they ended up moving on to Paulinho instead. His contract also runs out in 2019, so he really shouldn't cost too much.
There's no chance Madrid will sell Kovacic in January and I'm also doubtful they'd be willing to sell in the summer aswell tbh. Pulisic does play out wide generally, but Dybala would be wasted on the right in a 433. I think if Ozil does sign, I think he may well surprise you.
I read he wants out in January because he's not playing enough to get in the Croatia side for the World Cup, as for if they'd sell him at all, they have so much quality for that midfield 3 it's hard to say, I could see them selling him before they sell the two Spanish lads or Kroos. I think Dybala would be great as the RWF in a front 3, it's pretty much the exact role Mata played last night but with more dynamism and dribbling ability, it's how he operates a lot in the current Jvue side and at Palermo. As for Ozil surprising me, I don't doubt he's a good player if you have a double pivot and use him as a #10, I just don't want him anywhere near the club if it forces Pogba into a midfield 2, if he was put in the Mata role, I think it's daft with better otpions out there, but as long as it didn't effect the midfield 3 I'd not be overly bothered.
In a recent interview he called him "daddy". They did have a bust up at Real where Jose called him a coward and a cry baby.
Ozil is world class and a nice addition to our squad if he decides to play for us. And for £20m now days you buy players from the championship.
Have we been linked at all recently? I was hoping we'd do this deal in January but it seems to have gone quiet recently.
The Kovacic rumours come from Don Balon, so it's pretty much a non-story. But, your Dybala and Ozil points are fair enough.
Özil would be perfect for us and I think we have a real chance.
I hope we try hard enough.
I hope we try hard enough.
Well in the recent inrerview Jose said he wanted a CM to replace Carrick and that was for the team as opposed to the squad in his words, so I expect a top CM to come in, Kovacic is my hope but there are other options.
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