Mesut Özil

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Nah, I think we need a player like Ozil far more than Schweinstiger. Highest priority should be to get someone to play behind Rooney in a 4-5-1.

It depends how you want to set up. Brazil, for example, can afford to use two fairly limited players in the holding role, which allows the forwards to not have to worry too much about defending, although you'll notice that Dunga still uses either Elano or Dani Alves further forward with the clear intention providing extra cover. That also then allows the two attacking fullbacks to get forward, which means that six players can be attacking at any one time.

However, Brazil don't really use wingers, and the three players who float around behind Fabiano (Kaka, Elano, Robinho), along with the two defensive midfielders, afford them good control of the ball in the center of pitch.

But the point is that no matter which players we have, and which system we use, there has to be a coherent idea behind it. Sometimes fans get a little carried away and suggest that we should be using two attacking fullbacks, two strikers, two wingers, and an attacking midfielder in a two man central midfield, which is something that no other team in world football attempts to get away with, as far as I am aware. That's clearly not going to happen, so we have to make certain sacrifices.

Ozil, or a player like that, playing behind Rooney, would almost certainly mean that we should stick to using two fairly limited (in terms of creativity) central midfielders in Carrick, Fletcher, Hargreaves, etc. The difference between our system and Brazil's would be that their main attacking players all float around behind the main striker, whereas two of ours are not really comfortable in that position.

The good thing about a player like Ozil is that you could afford to bring on another striker during a game and either allow to continue floating in behind or to replace a wide player that hasn't been effective.
 
You can play from deep in midfield and still be creative. So I dont think we would have to have 2 "ordinary" midfielders in central midfield, behind someone in the hole such as Ozil and Wayne Rooney. All that matters it that both midfielders help defend, at least positionally ie. intercept and get ahold of loose balls around the edge of their own box. Two examples I could use are Ever Banega at Valencia, who was their most creative player last season. He goes from defending on the edge of his own box to supplying the killer passes from 30-40 yards from goal. And Luka Modric who helped control the midfield third against Chelsea and Arsenal playing deeper than Huddlestone. So you dont need to lack creativity from your 2 central midfielders, to suppliment having an "advanced playmaker" so to speak, such as Ozil. You just need a player who can create and control from deep, which is essentially what we need to replace from Scholes anyway as Sir Alex has spoken about Gibson replacing Scholes in other ways.
 
You can play from deep in midfield and still be creative. So I dont think we would have to have 2 "ordinary" midfielders in central midfield, behind someone in the hole such as Ozil and Wayne Rooney. All that matters it that both midfielders help defend, at least positionally ie. intercept and get ahold of loose balls around the edge of their own box. Two examples I could use are Ever Banega at Valencia, who was their most creative player last season. He goes from defending on the edge of his own box to supplying the killer passes from 30-40 yards from goal. And Luka Modric who helped control the midfield third against Chelsea and Arsenal playing deeper than Huddlestone. So you dont need to lack creativity from your 2 central midfielders, to suppliment having an "advanced playmaker" so to speak, such as Ozil. You just need a player who can create and control from deep, which is essentially what we need to replace from Scholes anyway as Sir Alex has spoken about Gibson replacing Scholes in other ways.

I didn't intend to suggest that we would absolutely need to do that, only that we don't currently have the type of players that you are talking about, and if we bought a player who could operate behind Rooney, it's unlikely that we would also replace one of the central midfielders, as well, particularly as there are so few examples out there. When most people suggest that we need to replace Scholes, they don't realize that there are very few players in world football with the creative and passing ability and also the defensive and tactical intelligence which, in Scholes' case, at least, was largely a product of him growing up in a two man midfield in English football (and which is likely the reason why we produce so few players like that).

As you have rightly said, there are a few examples of creative players who are also defensively responsible, but there are actually surprisingly few. Benega is certainly one of them, but I'm not at all convinced that you could get away with using Modric in a two man midfield (with all of the other attacking players that I talked about, including two attacking fullbacks) on a permanent basis, at least not without serious work on his defensive game. And whether he would be happy to always have that responsibility is another matter entirely.

Alonso and Busquets are also two players who, while not exactly creative in the final third, are certainly talented on the ball, and even Brazil would probably love to have two players like that, particularly as many Brazilian commentators believe that it's time to move on from the typical Brazilian holding player which has been the norm since they were cruelly exposed in 1982 (which, incidentally, is the reason that many in Brazil were so intrigued by what we were/are attempting to do with Anderson).

But there are very few holding players who have both the tactical and defensive intelligence, as well as the creative and the passing ability of the kinds of players that you have mentioned.
 
In my opinion the reason Brazil have less creative/talented holding midfield players playing in central midfield is because pretty much each club team in Brazil play the classic brazilian formation featuring wingbacks and holding midfielders. So each team picks its most talented players in the wide attacking midfield and forward positions, and has their less talented players doing all the donkey work to suppliment them. Obviously most of the club teams arent as good as the Brazilian national team, so pretty much any good players a club team have therefore end up in the wide attacking midfield and forward roles. And that makes sense, until it comes to the actual national team which then has a glorious supply of wingbacks, and wide attacking midfield players but even their best "donkeywork" players in the middle of midfield tend to be much less talented.

Anyway, you're right players like that are in short supply. Which is why its such a shame Carrick has no balls and has lost his form. If he had the ability to step up and dictate a match from deep - which he has the passing range and ability for - then we'd already have a great option for it. But he doesnt and thats his limitation.

In terms of next season, say we did sign a player for in the hole like Ozil, we'd still have Scholes. So we would still have the controlling midfielder in there as well as the advanced playmaker. And next summer is when we could replace him like for like with a passmaster in central midfield.
 
You act like Scholes plays ans starts everygame. If everyone was fir he would start less than half of the games.
 
You act like Scholes plays ans starts everygame. If everyone was fir he would start less than half of the games.

Bollocks. When he doesnt play everything requires more effort. His range and passing abilty is sorely missed when he's not in the team. He's still our playmaker and incredibly important to our midfield. Its him and Fletcher all the way at this point.
 
It'd certainly send out a message of intent to our Premier League and European rivals, if we could get hold of a rising superstar like Özil, that's certain.

Yet, we'd need to keep a 4-5-1 shape - or 4-3-3, if you want to call it - to get the best out of him. For Bremen, he played in a diamond midfield on the left and afterwards in the centre when Diego left the club.
 
It'd certainly send out a message of intent to our Premier League and European rivals, if we could get hold of a rising superstar like Özil, that's certain.

A message that needs sending out.

We lost our best player (at the time) to Real Madrid, who also signed Kaka. Barca have Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Fabregas (soon tba). City are signing Silva and Toure plus more tba.

Along with the most important factor of actually needing Ozil, we need to make a statement that reinforces our position in the football World order.

As stated above the most important facor is that we (more than any other big club) actually need Ozil, last season the success of 4231, 433 and 451 for us, coupled with an evident lack of a playmaker in midfield was noticeable for the entire season.

Seriously, sign this young man up, at any cost.
 
A message that needs sending out.

We lost our best player (at the time) to Real Madrid, who also signed Kaka. Barca have Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Fabregas (soon tba). City are signing Silva and Toure plus more tba.

Along with the most important factor of actually needing Ozil, we need to make a statement that reinforces our position in the football World order.

As stated above the most important facor is that we (more than any other big club) actually need Ozil, last season the success of 4231, 433 and 451 for us, coupled with an evident lack of a playmaker in midfield was noticeable for the entire season.

Seriously, sign this young man up, at any cost.
Couldn't agree more, redwhiteblack.
 
Firstly just because you don't see me post in the thread often doesn't mean I don't read the thread.. Stop making assumptions.. Secondly Although I do agree Pastore would most probably give more to the team than Maxi and probably even Veron it is still no excuse for you to say that Veron does nothing for the team.. Even if you just meant to compare him to Pastore that still doesn't stand true.. Because he clearly is a very important part of the Argentine side.. I agree Maradonna makes many of his decisions based on heart rather than head but having Veron in there is definitely a decision based on the head..

I wouldn't make the assumption if only you clearly showed what I was talking about but you didn't and you expect me to not think that you didn't read the previous pages :confused:
Here it is clearly: I THINK PASTORE SHOULD PLAY AHEAD OF VERON CAUSE HE COULD ONLY BE AN IMPROVEMENT ON THE BALD MIDFIELDER.
 
I wouldn't make the assumption if only you clearly showed what I was talking about but you didn't and you expect me to not think that you didn't read the previous pages :confused:
Here it is clearly: I THINK PASTORE SHOULD PLAY AHEAD OF VERON CAUSE HE COULD ONLY AN IMPROVEMENT ON THE BALD MIDFIELDER.

I fully agree.
 
Unfortunately we dont even seemed to be linked with him, so unless SAF is employing stealth tactics it is unlikely we will sign him
 
The majority of the time we sign people even though we're not linked with them.

Certainly the less known players but Ozil would be hard to keep under wraps would he not with all the publicity he now receives. Maybe Im wrong but don't think SAF would be interested in him purely in WC form, he would have to been on his radar for a while, we don't know whether he was or not
 
Certainly the less known players but Ozil would be hard to keep under wraps would he not with all the publicity he now receives. Maybe Im wrong but don't think SAF would be interested in him purely in WC form, he would have to been on his radar for a while, we don't know whether he was or not

We do because he's spoken about us trying to buy him right before the end of the transfer window a couple of seasons ago. And as you know with Sir Alex, sometimes he does keep going back in for some players such as Berbatov and Hargreaves. Ozil could be the same.

Would have been useful to sign him before the world cup though.. I mean, he would have been one of my 2 immediate choices for players to improve the team this summer before his great tournament form and its not like I'm an expert. So there's no reason to think that we, or another top team, could have got in there and got the deal done before his price rocketed based on world cup performances.
 
We do because he's spoken about us trying to buy him right before the end of the transfer window a couple of seasons ago. And as you know with Sir Alex, sometimes he does keep going back in for some players such as Berbatov and Hargreaves. Ozil could be the same.

Fair enough, hadnt realised he mentioned him and your right if that is the case, he does not forget about players
 
Fair enough, hadnt realised he mentioned him and your right if that is the case, he does not forget about players

Yeah. Its still a longshot because obviously he's going to be in such demand now, so its like the only thing that keeps us hanging in there. If we hadnt been in for him before its like you say, not going to happen.

With a hell of a lot of luck, its always been in the back of his mind "What would it have been like at United? Did I miss out? Did I miss my chance?" and if we go back in for him, and Barcelona dont, then maybe we'd be his priority. Best case scenario and all that. But yeah at this point he wouldnt be our regular type of signing which you have to think makes it somewhat unlikely...

Oh by the way I just re-read your post and I may not have been clear. It was Ozil who spoke about us being in for him in the past and deciding not to come. Not Sir Alex mentioning that we went in for Ozil.
 
Would love to see him here but I have a bad feeling. I wonder who else is in for him, that is of course that we actually are ourselves
 
We won't get him because we can not compete with the likes of City, Chelsea, Inter, Madrid and Barca. One of these will surely go for him if he's available, which will be the case after this world cup. On the back of having been one of the star performers of the World Cup and one year left on his contract?

Unless he has great love for Werder, he's gone. And there will be plenty, rich, takers... we're not among them, even if we're desperate for him.
 
Most likely signing Silva means City are out of the running as they are players who have the same best position. Chelsea were after Silva so will most likely turn their attention to someone like Ozil...
 
Most likely signing Silva means City are out of the running as they are players who have the same best position.

You never know with them, especially now they're filthy rich. Transfer strategy might be similar of that of Real Madrid's before Mourinho: they don't have one.

On that account, Madrid and Barca might not be in for him... Doesn't seem a Mourinho type of player and they're stacked with quality attackers. Barca won't go for him if they get Fabregas.

That leaves Inter, Chelsea and MAYBE City if they're dumb enough.
 
You never know with them, especially now they're filthy rich. Transfer strategy might be similar of that of Real Madrid's before Mourinho: they don't have one.

On that account, Madrid and Barca might not be in for him... Doesn't seem a Mourinho type of player and they're stacked with quality attackers. Barca won't go for him if they get Fabregas.

That leaves Inter, Chelsea and MAYBE City if they're dumb enough.

Of those three teams imho I would say Chelsea would be the big players, the other two might not even be interested. Where our chances lie all depends on which side of the financial arguement you believe, now that is me at my diplomatic best
 
Ferguson seems to dislike Germans, I doubt we'll even attempt to go for him
 
Has anyone mentioned Mueller?

He also looks a great talent

He absolutely is. But he's a German at Bayern Munich, so the fee would be ridiculous. So if you mean has anyone mentioned Muller as a transfer target, its not worth the keystrokes.
 
He absolutely is. But he's a German at Bayern Munich, so the fee would be ridiculous. So if you mean has anyone mentioned Muller as a transfer target, its not worth the keystrokes.

I see what you mean.

Shame mind :(
 
From the 3 games I have seen, Ozil would be a wonderful signing for us. Good age, great potential, surely he's a 'value' signing.

With City signing Silva, Barca after Fabregas, Real unlikely to sign another 'inexperienced' player (having signed Canales and Di Maria) and with Inter having that buffoon in charge, I can only see Chelsea rivalling us in a serious bid for the lad.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before; some of you might have a stroke by reading this, but how about a cash plus Berbatov bid for Ozil?? Berba thrived in Germany, whilst Ozil is the type of player we need.
 
Who said Özil even wants to play for us? Maybe he's that type of "anti-England" player many seem to have converted to of late.
 
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He looks a good talent, but I'm pretty sure he played v United in the CL and didnt do that much

So if you happen to not have a blinder against United, you're out of the equation?
 
No, I just dont want to deal with Bayern and also he's been great for Germany, which really doesnt mean he will be a club superstar. I dont see many people on wanting to buy Robinho, who incidentally I think is another great talent.
 
No, I just dont want to deal with Bayern and also he's been great for Germany, which really d. I dont see many people on wanting to buy Robinho, who incidentally I think is another great talent.

If City sell Robinho to Santos for a cut price, and then he signs for us it will be awesome.
 
Ozil is an interesting case for the value for money mantra, many seem to feel it equates to cheap but contextually given his talent level and his age, Ozil would represent either massive long term service to the club or a potentially big sell on fee, which in turn would make even a hefty transfer fee value for money.
 
Ozil is an interesting case for the value for money mantra, many seem to feel it equates to cheap but contextually given his talent level and his age, Ozil would represent either massive long term service to the club or a potentially big sell on fee, which in turn would make even a hefty transfer fee value for money.

Completely agree. Giving the nature of football, it's likely that in 5 years (at 26) his value will be through the roof. It's entirely possible that to sign him now for 40m could end up in a profitable sale in 5 years.

I've not been so sure we should sign a specific player no matter what the cost since Wayne Rooney first burst onto the scene.

I just hope that Fergie feels the same, I really do.
 
If we were interested in Ozil I think we'd have had some sniff in the media by now.

Very frustrating, he's exactly the type of player our team is crying out for and 18million really isn't alot of money if you consider he'd be in the team for at least 3 years and would then be sold off for alot of money if not profit.

He's exactly the type of player we should be using the Ronaldo money on.
 
Why do you say that? I thought we were quite interested in Neuer, and didn't we have a German in our youth side until recently?

What indications are there that interest in Neuer was anything but tabloid rumours?

I say that because it seems that Fergie has never been seriously linked with any German players. Schweinsteigger, Podolski, Lahm, Klose were very good players even 4 years ago when we were looking at those positions and we were never even close to signing them even though they were available. Even before that I can't remember anything, but I don't remember late 80s early 90's so may be SAF did try back in the day and I'm not aware of it?

We had couple of kids in our youth side, but they were just kids, they didn't have that German style of play drilled into them, they were growing up in England at an English academy under the supervision of a Scott. It's a far cry from picking up an established German star. I hope I'm wrong and we sign Schweinsteigger and Neuer, but Fergie's recent comments after the Bayern game don't fill me with confidence.
 
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