Mesut Özil

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Sarni said:
I admire your optimism about Cleverley but I think he's going to find it very difficult to become as good as Ozil is at the moment - only a year separates them and there's a vast difference in experience and class between the two at the moment. While I rate Cleverley and wish him well, I think he doesn't have more than a 30 per cent chance of making it to the United's first team in the next few years. It's extremely tough to become a first team player at United nowadays. For all the talk about giving youngsters a chance not many of them are able to make it, take the likes of Eagles and Richardson for example - both seemingly talented with great desire but they couldn't cut it. I'm glad that Evans, O'Shea and Fletcher have found their way to the first team but they're the only ones in this century to do so, three players in 10 years isn't really much, is it?
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Cleverly is a very good young player. He has every chance of becoming an important player for the club. a 30% chance is silly low. I think he's better then what you think he is, which is fine. There are many reasons why a lot don't make it. Eagles was never good enough. Richardson was never good enough. The reason it's so few is because the squad was pretty much 'tied' up and because the standards got so high, you couldn't even afford to lose a game which is not the case at the moment

There are plenty of kids who will make it here and some that won't. In terms of Cleverly though, when you look at the situation to say 30% chance isn't right at all. I appciate it's what you think, but the fact is Sir Alex knows he's good enough and he is certainly more then 30% sure. The best thing, when you promote kids is not only that they learn the united way, they bleed the club (most) but they're loyal and he's a better player then you believe him to be.

The fact is Ozil is very good and has alot more experience/exposure then Cleverly and it's only natural to side with Ozil like it was Tevez over Rossi. He has a great chance not just because he's talented but because he couldn't have better players round him to learn from. He could easily win an England cap by the end of the season. There's lot of possibilities for him this season.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
We have Carrick to be the deep lying playmaker and Anderson is being slowly and painfully converted into one, and if that fails we can always hope James or Pogba can become that or we sign Rodwell. What we've truly lacked though is a Scholes of old and a younger version of the current Giggs in our squad for long term benefit. Cleverely and Ozil would provide us with that. As SAF tries to develop Gibson into his own version of Lampard.
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How do you rate Gibson's chances to make it at United, Chief?
 
The caf would be so much easier and calmer if they had the same enthusiams for our current players than they have for potential signings
 
radd said:
Top red alert.
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Go through the old Ozil thread. Its ridiculous. Has nothing to do with being a top red, but ppl going bananas just because some bookies changed the odds or someone posted fake twitter rumours is OTT
 
If we kept buying though we'd be silly. Someone like Ozil might be a star at united, but so might cleverly though he's not as 'fashionable' i guess. So we then risk losing a talent for Ozil who dreams of Barca or whoever in 3/4 years time.

We have outstanding youth. It is the best group since the mid ninties and I'm sure Sir Alex is well aware who we have coming through. If we don't buy Ozil, it's not because we can't spare 8-12million. It's because he's not better then what we have in the team now or in the wings.

Take king as an example. He could be a top top player in a few years if he can get a run of games going but some people won't be happy with that because we didn't buy him for 40 million. Mental. What kids need is exposure to the big games or the people that don't appriciate them, actually watching the youth to get excited about them to think ...
 
Escobar said:
Go through the old Ozil thread. Its ridiculous. Has nothing to do with being a top red, but ppl going bananas just because some bookies changed the odds or someone posted fake twitter rumours is OTT
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No it wasn't. It was mostly following the news that he was going to sign for Barca yesterday. Disproving it as bull then people making up any old shit to see if they could feed the tweet mania of last night, anyway this is going way off topic.
 
gambit28 said:
No it wasn't. It was mostly following the news that he was going to sign for Barca yesterday. Disproving it as bull then people making up any old shit to see if they could feed the tweet mania of last night, anyway this is going way off topic.
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:wenger:
 
SATA said:
I await another frantic day of Mesut Ozil, and expect this thread to reach 35 pages when i come back in 5 hours :wenger:
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We're not allowed that now
I've lost interest in Ozil since that thread got deleted :(
 
Was Ozil even playing in this game Fulham 5 Werder Bremen 1 and if so, how did he perform? :angel:
 
Devil may care said:
In a years time?
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Maybe not. Maybe they will be ready in two years to make proper pushes for the first team (expect James at least to be a member of the squad next season).

If James (for example) will be good enough in two/three years to merit his place, then I would not mind him being given the time/chance.

James could take a similar career path to Cleverley, with this full season in the championship pushing him on towards a first team squad place next season (particularly as he would not need to be registered).

Norwood is probably a bit further back in development, and I am not as excited about him to be honest.
 
Scholesy said:
Norwood.
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Norwood is talented but to be honest? I'd be suprised if he made it. Not a slur on him, just the competition is very strong.

Anyway back to Ozil, I think people are expecting an awful lot from a 21 year old and we're developing Anderson. Hopefully he comes back fitter then he has been and shows his worth. I would much rather see Anderson show his porto form for us
 
Escobar said:
The caf would be so much easier and calmer if they had the same enthusiams for our current players than they have for potential signings
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If we had youngsters of a similar class we would be as excited. We do not though.
 
imo the only direct replacement for scholes would be fabregas but he s unreacheable.
However, he ll eventually be replaced like others before him, not necessarily with another 'scholes'
 
Mitch Conor said:
If we had youngsters of a similar class we would be as excited. We do not though.
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We do, though not as 'proven' ie lacking game experience/big game exposure. However, United is tougher to get into and therefore the chances aren't as frequent. There's nothing wrong with our talent. As it is, Cleverly this season has every chance of impressing

But someone like Jonny Evans is a perfect example. Not an 'exciting player' in that sense but I don't think many people have any complaints? Unlike some clubs, we don't have to force the kids though. We can afford to be paitent and look at various times when to introduce someone.
 
dev1l said:
imo the only direct replacement for scholes would be fabregas but he s unreacheable.
However, he ll eventually be replaced like others before him, not necessarily with another 'scholes'
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Yep. United fans should have relalised by know that the great players cant be replaced.

Players like Cantona, Giggs, Keane and Scholes, cant be replaced with like for like.
 
I think Eikrem is more like Scholes than either of Norwood or James.. I am shocked they aren't sending him out on loan..
 
Striker10 said:
eek we do though not as 'proven' ie lacking game experience/big game exposure. However, United is tougher to get into and therefore the chances aren't as frequent. There's nothing wrong with our talent. As it is, Cleverly this season has every chance of impressing

But someone like Jonny Evans is a perfect example. Not an 'exciting player' in that sense but I don't think many people have any complaints?
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Evans is a CB, he is not ment to be exciting.

Cleverley isn't close to Ozil imo.

Cleverley is a good prospect - and could develop into a very usefull player for us. However, he simply is not in the same class as Ozil. Ozil could become world class, I don't see that potential in Cleverley.

Also, Cleverly could, and is more likely to, develop as a winger in use similar to Park - Ozil will be a central player like Kaka, Sneijder etc. In terms of looking to the future, we could easily see a situation with (in a 451) Cleverley on the left, Ozil in the centre and (for muppets sake) Morrison from the right, with all three being able to interchange and drift from wide to centre or vice versa.
 
Mitch Conor said:
Evans is a CB, he is not ment to be exciting.

Cleverley isn't close to Ozil imo.

Cleverley is a good prospect - and could develop into a very usefull player for us. However, he simply is not in the same class as Ozil. Ozil could become world class, I don't see that potential in Cleverley.

Also, Cleverly could, and is more likely to, develop as a winger in use similar to Park - Ozil will be a central player like Kaka, Sneijder etc. In terms of looking to the future, we could easily see a situation with (in a 451) Cleverley on the left, Ozil in the centre and (for muppets sake) Morrison from the right, with all three being able to interchange and drift from wide to centre or vice versa.
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That's not the point. If your Ozil, exciting is irrelevent. It's about what you produce. If you are productive. I don't care what you don't see? You'd have said the same about a young scholes. You think Scholes was always the genius he is today? You give the kids time to improve like scholes whos debut I remember. Ozil is more experienced then Cleverly. Perhaps you could give Cleverly a chance before saying he'll never be as good. He might you know, but they're not exactly the same type of player.

I can understand reservations about certain players, but if a kid keeps impressing he keeps impressing. If Ozil better then what we have, we will bid for Ozil.

You're talking about the development, something none of us will play a role in.
 
Chirag said:
I think Eikrem is more like Scholes than either of Norwood or James.. I am shocked they aren't sending him out on loan..
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Eikrem would be more like scholes used to be imo - Eikrem is an AM, not a CM or deep lying playmaker. James and Norwood are (imo) positionally more suited to the role Scholes plays now.

As for Eikrem not being loaned out - the club are taking a very softly softly approach with him due to the lateness of his physical and footballing in general development (very much like Scholes)
 
Striker10 said:
That's not the point. If your Ozil, exciting is irrelevent. It's about what you produce. If you are productive. I don't care what you don't see? You'd have said the same about a young scholes. You think Scholes was always the genius he is today? You give the kids time to improve like scholes whos debut I remember. Ozil is more experienced then Cleverly. Perhaps you could give Cleverly a chance before saying he'll never be as good...

Your talking about the development, something none of us will play a role in.
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We are talking about opinions on development.

Would be kind of pointless if I said "I don't care what you see in Cleverley", as you have said to me.

For me, Ozil is an exciting prospect in the same way Ronaldo was. Cleverly simply isn't at that level imo.

I didn't say I wouldn't give Cleverley a chance - he is a player I really like and I think he could become a very valuable member of the squad, I really hope he does well. I just think Ozil has more potential than him.
 
Mitch Conor said:
Maybe not. Maybe they will be ready in two years to make proper pushes for the first team (expect James at least to be a member of the squad next season).

If James (for example) will be good enough in two/three years to merit his place, then I would not mind him being given the time/chance.

James could take a similar career path to Cleverley, with this full season in the championship pushing him on towards a first team squad place next season (particularly as he would not need to be registered).

Norwood is probably a bit further back in development, and I am not as excited about him to be honest.
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I have only seen clips of James to be honest, but he does look to have some talent, but I don't think buying in a player closer to ready should hamper him, at United if you are good enough you force your way through in the end, I really can't think of a youth player we have let go that I turned around and thought "We should have kept him."
 
Striker10 said:
Was Ozil even playing in this game Fulham 5 Werder Bremen 1 and if so, how did he perform? :angel:
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He came on at 38 minutes and Fergie left at 45. As for how did he perform? Well, there was no stream of the game but from what I could've interpreted from the Werder.de text commentary, he made a couple of good moves but was largely invisible.
 
Devil may care said:
I have only seen clips of James to be honest, but he does look to have some talent, but I don't think buying in a player closer to ready should hamper him, at United if you are good enough you force your way through in the end, I really can't think of a youth player we have let go that I turned around and thought "We should have kept him."
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conversely though, we sold players (kanchelskis, Hughes and Ince) to make way for young players in Beckham, Scholes and Butt. Turned out they were ready right away and we won the league, but I reckon Fergie would have accepted a poorer return in the league in return for those players developing as he thought they would.

We sold first team players and didn't bring any in cause Fergie had faith the youth players would be good enough if given the chance - if we had sold Hughes and signed a striker, or Kanchelskis and signed a right winger, I'm fairly certain the progress and development of Scholes and Beckham would have been hindered.
 
Mitch Conor said:
We are talking about opinions on development.

Would be kind of pointless if I said "I don't care what you see in Cleverley", as you have said to me.

For me, Ozil is an exciting prospect in the same way Ronaldo was. Cleverly simply isn't at that level imo.

I didn't say I wouldn't give Cleverley a chance - he is a player I really like and I think he could become a very valuable member of the squad, I really hope he does well. I just think Ozil has more potential than him.
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I said that because I don't know where he will end up. I don't think any of us know the future. We can obsess about Ozil and that's ok, but we've not got it too bad. If Clevelry scores 10 goals this season, which isn't beyond him, I don't think Ozil would do that much better. Fanboi ;) Ok you like the player. That's fair enough but you know Kings as exciting as a young Ronaldo. I think we've plenty of exciting players who could become world class players for the club but don't get me wrong. I won't exactly cry if we sign Ozil. Apparently Anderson was the best teenager in world football at one point...

Cleverly could easily be a first teamer in a few seasons. At a time where Chelsea are not invincible and where our midfields getting older and at a time where England is rebuilding, I don't think there's a better time to be a young English midfielder and it can really push you on to greater things quicker
 
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