Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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prtk0811 said:
Barcelona play the same posession based game. the words were sir alex's words. not mine
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To think they're playing the same football under Enrique that they were under Pep is wrong. Their midfield is getting older and their influence is waning, they have players like Neymar who are direct, they would be hindering their squad to play that patient build-up style. Had they still been a possession side do you think they would be opting for signings of the Andre Gomes ilk?

Sir Alex is biased towards Ronaldo, he has worked personally with Ronaldo, Pep blows Messi's horn because he's worked with Messi, that's how it works. That's why I don't take the opinion of managers seriously, they're obviously going to be biased.

Sir Alex has also said Barcelona were the best team he's ever faced and no-one has ever beaten us the way they did, with Messi being the best player in that match. Don't take everything they take so seriously.
 
Moby said:
As opposed to fans?
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Never said they weren't, in fact I've said the opposite, it's why this argument will never get anywhere. It's purely down to preference. They both score a feck load of goals, one has transformed into a pure poacher, one is happy to dictate play. They've both won everything there is to win at club level. I personally think Messi is better, but claiming Ronaldo is better is also understandable. Everyone appreciates the game differently.

Who's better comes down to form and how good the players around them is. It's true Messi probably wouldn't be as good playing for Sunderland, but neither would Ronaldo.

NT performances are dictated by a lot of things and both have been very underwhelming in that aspect.
 
Let's put them both in the same team. Where would you play them and who would the other player be in a front 3 (modern players)

The idea of peak UTD Ronaldo on the left, Peak False 9 Messi and Robben on the right :drool:
 
Arbitrium said:
Let's put them both in the same team. Where would you play them and who would the other player be in a front 3 (modern players)

The idea of peak UTD Ronaldo on the left, Peak False 9 Messi and Robben on the right :drool:
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I would set up something like that, Ronaldo and someone else upfront and Messi behind them or set up like Real Madrid today and have Messi play the position of Isco.
 
I hope they become best mates once they retire and both wear "I'm with the best player in history" tshirts when in public together
 
Arbitrium said:
I hope they become best mates once they retire and both wear "I'm with the best player in history" tshirts when in public together
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Both humbly refuse the mantle of GOAT; instead they admit that it was Shola Ameobi all along.
 
Arbitrium said:
Let's put them both in the same team. Where would you play them and who would the other player be in a front 3 (modern players)

The idea of peak UTD Ronaldo on the left, Peak False 9 Messi and Robben on the right :drool:
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At their peak, Messi as false 9 and Cristiano on the left. On the right someone who will press and defend. You already have all the goals you'll need so it would be someone to do a bit of the hard work. Someone like Ribery I guess, he's better on the left but I can't think of anyone else.

Have they ever played an exhibition match together? It would be a shame if they stopped playing without that happening once
 
Peyroteo said:
At their peak, Messi as false 9 and Cristiano on the left. On the right someone who will press and defend. You already have all the goals you'll need so it would be someone to do a bit of the hard work. Someone like Ribery I guess, he's better on the left but I can't think of anyone else.

Have they ever played an exhibition match together? It would be a shame if they stopped playing without that happening once
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Pedro would probably work out there, or someone like ludovic guily, who was the player to originally make way for Messi really. He never did much wrong on the right for that Barca side, but Messi just made him redundant
 
MrMarcello said:
Fanboiism... ruining sports one opinion at a time.
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Ha.
In the meantime a bunch of fans are missing the fact that we are fortunate enough to be watching 2 of the all time greats playing during the same time. That doesnt happen at this giddy level very often.
 
Revan said:
I see no possible scenario when Ronaldo will be rated as lower than in fourth place. Especially when he will be compared with guys who no-one saw them playing.
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I can, just look at the divergence of opinion on this forum regarding his place in the pantheon.

You have those who can't stand him, let's call them the Penaldo brigade, to those who indulge in what was a weekly jizz-fest in the Ronaldo thread with each goal he scored.

& then you have Cal?, who as I recall placed him alongside the likes of Muhammad Ali in the wider sporting sphere. :lol:

Revan said:
He is already the most popular footballer in the world, and the kids who grew up watching him will have an opinion. Those who didn't see him play, will read about him and look his highlights, both looking fantastic. It will all be part of the legend of Ronaldo. And his story is fantastic.

Lets be fair, Pele is very close to an unanimous choice for the GOAT (or was, until Messi came around) despite that the 99.99% of people who have him as No.1 have never seen him play bar a couple of matches in World Cups (at best) and his career highlights. Even in Maradona, only Italians have seen him play week after week. Most people have them as high based on their story.

Ronaldo's (and Messi's of course) story will be just as good, and Pele will be 'a long time ago'. There is no doubt in my mind that both of them have a good shot at being remembered as the GOAT of the sport. While Messi has been the better player, Ronaldo has the advantage of having done it with 2 clubs and his national team. I don't think that Messi should leave Barca to make happy people in internet forums, but really, doing it outside of him comfort zone looks better in the story.
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I take your point about each player's story but I think you overstate the importance of it. I've watched the entirety of Ronaldo's career, more or less, and his 'story' as you put it doesn't feature much in my thoughts. He left Manchester United, the biggest club in England with what was the best side in the Premier League, to go to Real Madrid, the biggest or joint-biggest club in Spain with what has been the second best side in La Liga for the majority of that time. The title triumphs with each, three with United in six years and just one with Real in seven, merely prove that point.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be highlighted or anything, but I find the merits of it to be marginal.
 
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uber talent vs uber efficiency. Absolutely remarkable.
Question: Should Ronaldo win UCL back to back, where would that place him all time and how would it impact this "debate"?
 
Obiorahking_ said:
uber talent vs uber efficiency. Absolutely remarkable.
Question: Should Ronaldo win UCL back to back, where would that place him all time and how would it impact this "debate"?
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He & Messi are already the best 2 ever.
 
Ronaldo is a product of modern zonal defending.

He doesnt have the zig zag, fluid body movement to win 1 on 1 duels like early 2000s and 90s defenses played you.

That 3rd goal, 3 defenders form a "line" to defend a "space" Ronaldo simply stops in the middle of the box and waits for a easy tap in. These sort of looks were super rare 15 years ago. You actually had to have 1 on 1 capabilities.

I also think this modern system makes it much tougher for CMs to play the game, so generally today they are way more skillful. But the amount of easy poaches allowed today are astronomical compared to 15 years ago.
 
beckbeck said:
Ronaldo is a product of modern zonal defending.

He doesnt have the zig zag, fluid body movement to win 1 on 1 duels like early 2000s and 90s defenses played you.

That 3rd goal, 3 defenders form a "line" to defend a "space" Ronaldo simply stops in the middle of the box and waits for a easy tap in. These sort of looks were super rare 15 years ago. You actually had to have 1 on 1 capabilities.

I also think this modern system makes it much tougher for CMs to play the game, so generally today they are way more skillful. But the amount of easy poaches allowed today are astronomical compared to 15 years ago.
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So if we teach rooney positioning he'll start scoring?

He's a product of a very very rare god given talent and hardwork.
 
I'm a huge Ronaldo fan and even I had started to wonder if he would begin to wane a little. But more records, more hattricks, on the biggest stage is just sensational.

What a player.
 
beckbeck said:
Ronaldo is a product of modern zonal defending.

He doesnt have the zig zag, fluid body movement to win 1 on 1 duels like early 2000s and 90s defenses played you.

That 3rd goal, 3 defenders form a "line" to defend a "space" Ronaldo simply stops in the middle of the box and waits for a easy tap in. These sort of looks were super rare 15 years ago. You actually had to have 1 on 1 capabilities.

I also think this modern system makes it much tougher for CMs to play the game, so generally today they are way more skillful. But the amount of easy poaches allowed today are astronomical compared to 15 years ago.
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Very interesting post. I have always believed that CMs in todays game have become a lot more well rounded than before with the onset of the likes of Verratti, Modric, Pogba, Kroos, Koke, Saul, ..... but I could never come to a concrete conclusion why. Why do you think a "modern" zonal system contributed to this as supposed to a traditional man marking system that we currently play?

Second I think you downplay Ronaldo's movement as just simply running into the middle and waiting for the ball to fall its way because from there it becomes a slippery slope. Should we say the same thing about Higuain? Cavani? Chicharito? Suarez?
 
Lord Megadrive said:
You obviously don't remember the 18 year old we signed.
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He was obviously already extremely devoted to his sport back then, but even so a lot of people thought he wasn't even the best talent at Sporting when we signed him, going for Quaresma or Fabio Paim instead.

Ronaldo is no doubt extremely talented, but with his work ethic he would have probably been a legendary player regardless. Gary Neville made it to where he was on just his work ethic and Ronaldo makes him look like Adriano in that department.
 
Messi is probably a better footballer, but Ronaldo is a non-human machine.

Years from now when people look back at history, I think Ronaldo will be remembered as the greatest simply because he had achieved more. Won CL with two different clubs, Won a major tournament with his country, will probably lead his club to be the first to retain the CL, and plenty of individual awards and ground breaking records.

Messi is one of the best footballers of all time, but Ronaldo is simply the greatest.
 
Red Stone said:
He was obviously already extremely devoted to his sport back then, but even so a lot of people thought he wasn't even the best talent at Sporting when we signed him, going for Quaresma or Fabio Paim instead.

Ronaldo is no doubt extremely talented, but with his work ethic he would have probably been a legendary player regardless. Gary Neville made it to where he was on just his work ethic and Ronaldo makes him look like Adriano in that department.
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Yes they both worked hard to make more of their talent. But the fact is you don't get picked for big clubs on hard work alone. Being able to make the most of your talent is what makes you a great. (Messi is also a hard working player yet thats never used as a stick to beat him like it is with Ronaldo)
 
Stadjer said:
Not really.. Ronaldo also is insanely talented. He destroyed the Man Utd defense when he was just 17 years old.. not many players can do that.
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He absolutely didn't destroy United, he didn't even participate in the goals. https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=AfgdUfDgCq8

You guys are homers, I get it.

But as a youngster, you can't compare Ronaldo to a Messi. He is 90% hard work.
 
Imagine a WC final or Portugal v Messi next year. This thread will cause the collapse of the internet. ;)
 
beckbeck said:
He absolutely didn't destroy United, he didn't even participate in the goals. https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=AfgdUfDgCq8

You guys are homers, I get it.

But as a youngster, you can't compare Ronaldo to a Messi. He is 90% hard work.
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Classy...

Messi is actually the result of more hard work than Ronaldo. A lot of medical care went into him!
 
Cal? said:
Imagine a WC final or Portugal v Messi next year. This thread will cause the collapse of the internet. ;)
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Basically their individual performance wouldn't matter, the team who ends up winning would "crown" Messi or Ronaldo, even if they were piss poor or played only 20 minutes of that game.
 
Womp said:
Shit like this is why this argument is so tedious. Barcelona don't play the same football they did years ago, they're not as willing to hold onto the ball and dominate the game as they use to. They're purely a counter-attacking and attacking side now.

It's as if you can't discuss either of them without trying to downplay them. Genuinely thinking one of the most talented players we've ever seen play the game would struggle outside of Barcelona is laughable.

Also, they've both been underwhelming for their nations, if national performances were the barometer then Neymar is on a different level to them both.
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Firstly, anyone that suggest Mess "would struggle" outside of Barcelona is not being genuine or has no understanding of the player. Wherever he plays, he will most likely always be in the argument for GOAT. However, there is something to be said about Messi spending his entire career in a Barcelona team that has been catered to his needs. How much does that downplay his success? IMO not really but it is a valid point and if you are going to go down the "Messi vs Ronaldo" debate which I'm not a big fan of, you must take these things into consideration.

Secondly, Ronaldo has not been underwhelming for his nation. He was a key part in them winning Europe last year. Apart from that, no one expects much from Portugals national team so he hasn't really been disappointing anyone. Messi on the other hand has failed in the NT level. People will argue all day that it's not his fault, higuin sucks and all that but it doesn't matter. At the the end of the day him (and all the other Argentine players involved) did not deliver the gold.
 
shamans said:
Firstly, anyone that suggest Mess "would struggle" outside of Barcelona is not being genuine or has no understanding of the player. Wherever he plays, he will most likely always be in the argument for GOAT. However, there is something to be said about Messi spending his entire career in a Barcelona team that has been catered to his needs. How much does that downplay his success? IMO not really but it is a valid point and if you are going to go down the "Messi vs Ronaldo" debate which I'm not a big fan of, you must take these things into consideration.

Secondly, Ronaldo has not been underwhelming for his nation. He was a key part in them winning Europe last year. Apart from that, no one expects much from Portugals national team so he hasn't really been disappointing anyone. Messi on the other hand has failed in the NT level. People will argue all day that it's not his fault, higuin sucks and all that but it doesn't matter. At the the end of the day him (and all the other Argentine players involved) did not deliver the gold.
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He was poor and had little to no influence in the group stages, was good in the knockout stages and didn't even play in the final. For someone of Ronaldo's standards that's not a great tournament. Nani and Pepe had better tournaments than he did imo. They won the final against a talent stacked France squad without him and he only managed 3 goals or something all tournament, not the best by his standards by a long shot.

Furthermore placing international success on Ronaldo's feet when he didn't even play in the final, but spiting Messi who many consider to be the only reason Argentina have made 2 Copa finals and a World Cup final is incorrect to me. Had Ronaldo been more influential and actually played the final (which many could argue was their only difficult match) then I'd accept it. Imo though they've both underwhelmed for their NT. You just have to look at how poor Argentina are looking without Messi now, they're a disjointed side. Messi still should have been better though.

Also I'd argue that Ronaldo is more reliant on Madrid then Messi is on Barcelona, so claiming Messi wouldn't be as good is a double edged sword, Ronaldo wouldn't be as good playing for a less dominant team either. There isn't a player in the world who could be as good playing with worse teammates.

These arguments never lead anywhere though, people are emotionally invested into either of the two and the discussions always go in circles.
 
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The argument that Ronaldo is about graft and Messi about control isn't exactly unfair.

You berate a player because he's only a bag of tricks without any positive outcome (pre-2005 CR); he then transforms himself from a skinny wide man into a powerful all-round Forward and now we berate him for being 'just a poacher'. The way I see it, we are not given a choice when it comes to competition - it's not his fault there was someone like Messi playing in the same gen; My point being, when a player starts out - he wants to be the best in the world and yet the world seemed unequivocally in support of Messi because it's more beautiful to watch - at that early age being compared to and subsequently losing out on the Ballon' D' Or for 4 consecutive years and a whole lot of other factors changed CR's approach. he became more prolific, more of a poacher. It was not always the case.
The way they started out, Ronaldo was more skillful while at SCP - he was a natural winger. When CR came to United, he didn't light up EPL - We all thought he is an amazing talent but there was a time when all his tricks and foolery wasn't amounting to much (add to that his slight frame). It was then that we saw the quality that makes him world-class - his work ethic - all this OTT behaviour against his teammates we see today from him wasn't the case at United - couldn't be with Keane, Scholes. SAF and Queiroz drilled it in him (get ugly goals too) and we saw a skinny winger turning into one of the most devastating physical goal-scorers seen in the PL.

It's the attitude that defines Cristiano Ronaldo who shouts and gesticulates after getting injured to get his country it's first European Cup; To me, Cristiano is an inspiration - because we can only dream of having Messi's natural talents; Ronaldo's work ethic is something everyone can develop. For the thousand brilliant fecking geniuses out there, it's the ethics and attitude that helps segregate at the highest level - this is true for everything not just football.
 
Womp said:
He was poor and had little to no influence in the group stages, was good in the knockout stages and didn't even play in the final. For someone of Ronaldo's standards that's not a great tournament. Nani and Pepe had better tournaments than he did imo. They won the final against a talent stacked France squad without him and he only managed 3 goals or something all tournament, not the best by his standards by a long shot.

Furthermore placing international success on Ronaldo's feet when he didn't even play in the final, but spiting Messi who many consider to be the only reason Argentina have made 2 Copa finals and a World Cup final is incorrect to me. Had Ronaldo been more influential and actually played the final (which many could argue was their only difficult match) then I'd accept it. Imo though they've both underwhelmed for their NT. You just have to look at how poor Argentina are looking without Messi now, they're a disjointed side. Messi still should have been better though.

Also I'd argue that Ronaldo is more reliant on Madrid then Messi is on Barcelona, so claiming Messi wouldn't be as good is a double edged sword, Ronaldo wouldn't be as good playing for a less dominant team either. There isn't a player in the world who could be as good playing with worse teammates.

These arguments never lead anywhere though, people are emotionally invested into either of the two and the discussions always go in circles.
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Messi is the sole reason for Argentina's (Di Maria, Mascherano, Higuain, Dybala, Aguero, Tevez) cup triumphs runs while Ronaldo's Portugal who ended up winning the Euros did not have a great tournament? :lol:
'Didn't play in the final' is the stupidest argument I've heard - as if it's the player's fault for getting himself injured.
 
GailWynand said:
It's the attitude that defines Cristiano Ronaldo who shouts and gesticulates after getting injured to get his country it's first European Cup; To me, Cristiano is an inspiration - because we can only dream of having Messi's natural talents; Ronaldo's work ethic is something everyone can develop. For the thousand brilliant fecking geniuses out there, it's the ethics and attitude that helps segregate at the highest level - this is true for everything not just football.
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Well said, like you said many people just wish things to be easy for them in many things. Like wishing to be rich or a genius out of nowhere in order to get things easy and not realizing despite the natural talents one can have you still require a lot of effort and hardwork if you want to be among the very best.
 
Arbitrium said:
Let's put them both in the same team. Where would you play them and who would the other player be in a front 3 (modern players)

The idea of peak UTD Ronaldo on the left, Peak False 9 Messi and Robben on the right :drool:
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Peak Madrid Ronaldo on the left as a goalscorer making darting runs into the box getting the end of Messi's inch perfect lobs from the right.

It's the most unstoppable tandem ever seen in the sport.
 
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