Not true. The other extreme: Ronaldo didn't win the EC because he didn't play the final. (your exact words)
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Not true. The other extreme: Ronaldo didn't win the EC because he didn't play the final. (your exact words)
He did win it but he didnt win it as in he didnt win it for them, he didnt play the final so he couldnt win it for them. You made the claim, Ronaldon won them the EC and Messi quited his NT after losing the final, that being the difference between them. That is ridiculous.
Messi is better for me, but what's funny is the people who have Messi down as the GOAT, and Ronaldo nowhere near him.
It's amazing how these 2 players put in excellent numbers and also push each other to the limits.
2 completely different players but suited to their teams like a perfect glove.
I don't think we will see a player like Messi who is almost best at everything (technical side of the game) or Ronaldo, a player who puts insane numbers in the latter stages of CL.
2 completely different players but suited to their teams like a perfect glove.
I don't think we will see a player like Messi who is almost best at everything (technical side of the game) or Ronaldo, a player who puts insane numbers in the latter stages of CL.
Agree with this, but I don't agree that Messi hasn't changed. He doesn't dribble as much or as well, and he doesn't have that electric acceleration he once had either. In that regard, they both had to change, but I think Ronaldo has adapted his game more.
I was comparing attitude differences - I was quoting facts. It's funny how almost everyone is supposed to agree that Messi is more talented than Ronaldo, yet if one says Ronaldo has more drive - it's considered blasphemous.
Ronaldo absolutely has more drive, I agree with you strongly on that. Ronaldo's drives for me is a big reason why we are discussing about this, I think in footballing terms there is quite a difference between the two but Ronaldo's drive just elevates him. He always tries to better and better and always tries to perform. Messi lets his head down more often. If Messi had his drive he would undisputedly be the GOAT and reversely if Ronaldo had that natural talent combined with the drive, he would be the GOAT.
It is kind of crazy, isn't it? People in this thread even said that he was bad in group stages. Portugal was with one and a half legs out of group stage, and then Ronaldo saved you in the final match.I think a few people here need a rewatch of our Euro 2016 campaign. I wouldn't blame them if they didn't bother though
There's no doubt Cristiano was our best player and you won't find a single person in the country displeased with his performances for Portugal as a whole.
Then the crazy sprint against Croatia which resulted in the goal.
Scoring the pen against Poland and forcing/pushing Moutinho to shoot it when he was shitting himself.
Goal and assist against Wales who was like the most in form team.
But he was shit. He just scored 3 goals and assisted 3 others for a team that scored 9 goals, being the second (joint) highest top scorer and the third highest assist maker. Hardly impressive. Nani, Pepe, Fonte, Eder, Luis Figo, Eusebio and that Portugal fan were better in that Euros.
I think Nani, Pepe were better in the Euros.
I think Football is a funny thing, you can have players that rile up the team, run their socks off, win tackles and engineer the time and space for others to score and assist, but they never get credit.
Last night for Instance, Ronaldo scored 3 goals, he will get all the credit. People like Marcelo, Kroos, Modric have been wonderful all season, so has Isco but they won't get a mention of course. It's a team game, and sadly people only measure assists and goals.
People are so number driven now, they don't look at the whole picture, dribbles, tactical awareness, key passes, chances created (on-top of assists). Talking only about assists and goals is like judging a job by a salary.
People measure a number baseline as the sole metric of Success, Messi is by far a better footballer than Ronaldo and now we will see Ronaldo score a lot more goals as he plays as a #9 and Messi drops deeper, but Ronaldo is top 5 in the greatest of all time at this point.
I don't think you can judge it all on goals and assists. I don't judge a book based on its page numbers either, I judge it on its contents. People just look for a lazy way to shoehorn footballers now, take Iniesta for example probably the greatest midfielder of his generation but he doesn't score much. Zidane was far from prolific, yet he's considered one of the best midfielders ever, it's more than goals and assists.
Think the player who has the most attributes of both is R9, but I dont think he was better than Messi and CR7 will definitely have the better career too.Imagine a Ronaldo-Messi hybrid.
Pepe wasn't as good as people say in the Euros. Patricio saved his ass multiple times in the final and Bruno fecking Alves replaced him in the semis and it wasn't even noticeable. He was guilty of the Iceland goal too. He was our third best player in the Euros and he gets the credit he deserves but he wasn't as important as Cristiano.
Did you mean to counter something I said? Lets not get into a discussion about how either of the best players in the world would be better if they applied themselves better.
Let me make this clear, Messi is a great player. He is regarded by many as the best to ever play the game. Ronaldo is so good that there is genuine, legitimate, debate.
Question to the Messi fans who try to put down Ronaldo at the Euros but elevate Messi in the 14 WC for reaching a final.
Who was more decisive for their country in the KO stages of those tournaments? Messi stats from the 14 WC are elevated by goals against Bosnia/Nigeria and Iran. He didn't score in the 4 KO matches of the tournament but I guess Higuain, ADM, Aguero and the manager were all to blame for that.
Who was more decisive for their country in the KO stages of those tournaments? Messi stats from the 14 WC are elevated by goals against Bosnia/Nigeria and Iran. He didn't score in the 4 KO matches of the tournament but I guess Higuain, ADM, Aguero and the manager were all to blame for that.
First, don't care about his stats. Those goals were vital to get through the group stages against those teams. That tells you how shit we were, playing with two defensive midfielders against Bosnia.
But it's unfair to Messi. He didn't score in the 4 KO matches. But against Switzerland in extra time he makes a great run from the midfield getting a player behind and attracting another to find a free Di Maria
That goal won us the game.
Then against Belgium, look where Messi was playing when Higuain scored
Clearly Messi was playing deep in most of times. As he does now for Barcelona. Argentina has no midfield and Messi had to come down and start the plays. On the other hand Ronaldo doesn't have to do any of these. And they didn't get through the group stages because of him...
I really enjoyed Ronaldo yesterday. He's out of this world in terms of goalscoring. And that's it. He is top 5 in the history of the game when it comes to goalscoring, there's no doubt for me.
But people simplify things with the common statements "but goals is the main objetive in football..". Well, putting the ball through the line is not everything. The construction of the play is also important. Who was more important in that Di Maria goal..Messi with his run or Di Maria with the free chance to aim and shoot?. Each one has their opinion.
What's his assist count?
That's just not true.
Nani's goal at 0:50
Quaresma's in 117th minute, if that's not deep enough to start a play then I don't know what is
If we didn't get through the group stages because of him then I would like to know who got us through the group stages
I don't follow numbers.
Ronaldo can pass the ball and put some great crosses for sure. But he's nowhere near Messi in terms of vision and ability to put balls through the lines or with the perfect weight through the air.
I don't care if Messi has more or less numbers (I think he has more) but you just have to watch them play to know it.
They're not the be all and and all, obviously, but 107 assists (based on the title of that video) is pretty crazy for someone who you say "only scores goals and that's it". Clearly he's pretty good at providing as well.
On Nani's goal, my bad. Although by some Ronaldo fans logic...Nani's the vital player in that play, because he scored. For me, it's Ronaldo.
Then you're putting a counter attack goal, which is not the same to play deeply by a tactical decision.
Well you can watch the video and take your conclusions. Most of the goals are normal passes in counter attacks or crosses. There may be a couple great balls through the line but you can't say that's a characteristic of him. I mean, messi can resolve more situations than Ronaldo can, due to his vision and precision with his passes, breaking lines.
The thing is that it's unfair to expect Cristiano to come deep in possession when we have 0 strikers on the pitch and he's the biggest goal threat. He's the only reliable goal threat we have so he needs to be close to goal. Ronaldo is still capable of playing through balls and playing deeper although he is obviously not as good at that as Messi. But football isn't just pretty dribbling and through balls, goals don't count less because they come from crosses or counters.
On the Nani goal, I'd definitely say he's the vital player for that goal. Ronaldo had the vision and the passing but Nani made the run and finished it.
I dont know if you support United but Rooney has more assists than Pogba in less minutes, every United fan who actually watches United would never say Rooney matches Pogba in terms of passing. Rooney plays further ahead and things like deflected shots, squaring the ball etc als count as assists. But if you look at the actually quality of passing, vision, types of passing, difficulty, breaking open defences, getting us into the final 3rd it's no contest. But that doesnt translate into a stat.
Pretty much so, Messi probably hates Higuain.
So somehow through balls are "better assists" than crosses?
The extent Messi fans will go...
Next, headers are pointless
While i do admit Messi is more talented than Ronaldo you just cant say Ronaldo isnt extremely talented and claim that 90% of his succes is his hard work.
I completely agree with you, it's a complete myth that Ronaldo works hard but Messi doesn't.
To learn anything takes a lot of practice, to be good at carpentry, playing the piano, maths, science, dancing, acting, football it doesn't matter, it all takes a lot of practice, understanding and cognition.
Your brain forms neurological connections through pattern detection, exposure to a subject like driving a car, performing turns and gear changes frequently over days, weeks, months. As Cavemen we had to find patterns in nature and become good at making tools. Now we have to learn alphabets, complex language patterns, learning to operate a B52 bomber through specialist training, etc.
To say Messi was born with "talent" is ridiculous, someone that works in Starbucks might be the most "talented" footballer on the planet right now, but to everyone he's terrible, he can't even kick a ball because he has never played.
You come into the world as a complete blank slate, the notion of talent is absolutely absurd, maybe you enjoy something more because you are good at it, and you are slightly better than everyone else so your brain thinks "Hey I'm better than this person" suddenly you practice more than that 10% gap becomes a 20% gap and so on.
People get to be where they are being from the age of 3-4 they have a ball at their feet, they cognitively think "Okay, what happens if I try this with the ball? How do I get it to there? How can I beat my opponent effectively?"
Then there's of course external factors such as having the right environment, consistency, having good advice from coaches and being nurtured, but nobody can pretend Ronaldo plays football 18 hours a day and Messi plays for 3 hours and there's some magical force in the universe called "talent".
Pretty sure Messi has become really good at free-kicks and playmaking due to the way Barcelona play and plenty of practice, where-as Ronaldo has become a lesser dribbler and a better finisher because of his attributes, the Madrid set up and the midfield being so good as opposed to Barcelonas current state.
No matter what is said anyway people have confirmation bias anyway, you can say anything you like but if people blindly follow some rule like "Mourinho doesnt play youth" or "Don't eat carbs they are bad!" people blindly follow the information, ignore 9 pieces of information against that fact, but then get happy when one source agrees with them.
That's the world we live in though.
TLDR Ronaldo most likely doesn't work harder, or isn't any less "talented". Talent is a completely ridiculous word that means nothing.
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I remember watching Ronaldo against Roma back in 2007 and thinking that he's incredibly good and might well become a top 5 player in the history of the game. He wasn't a goal machine back then, so my admiration wasn't based mainly on goals but on the way he was playing. The myth that Ronaldo is just a goalscorer has been invented by Messi fanboys as a stick to beat him with. He's always been one of the most complete forwards in history: can shoot and pass with both legs, monster in the air, excellent at set pieces, pace, power and determination in abundance, extraordinary movement and reading of the game, etc.
Well, I'm just saying that Messi does score as much as cristiano, but has much better dribbling, vision and ability to break lines. That's why he's better than Ronaldo, who is not involved in the generation of the plays normally (there are exceptions).
But then it seems like we're saying cristiano is utter shit or something when he clearly is in a league on his own. It's just Messi is also in a league of his own above Cristiano.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...am-was-on-my-level-wed-be-first-a6900466.html
Well, I'm just saying that Messi does score as much as cristiano, but has much better dribbling, vision and ability to break lines. That's why he's better than Ronaldo, who is not involved in the generation of the plays normally (there are exceptions).
But then it seems like we're saying cristiano is utter shit or something when he clearly is in a league on his own. It's just Messi is also in a league of his own above Cristiano.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...am-was-on-my-level-wed-be-first-a6900466.html
Aww were your feelings hurt Thiago Messi?
Yeh, probably won't sleep tonight.
You can have a genetic make-up more suited to your role. I mean, we could probably guess that Mata would have never been as effective a centre-back as Smalling, and the latter wouldn't be as effective in attacking midfield. At very young ages, too.
Even in 2007 it was nearing the end of "old school Ronaldo"
I'm more angry at what Ronaldo chose to do with his talent than any other thing about him. Main reason I rate Messi a whole level above Ronaldo is because I see him play and he scores like Ronaldo AND makes his team play like say Modric.
Now, Ronaldo had the talent and the potential to match or even surpass Neymar's technique, but he chose to build his body (and that also means his whole game) as an efficient striker, and that took away a lot of his capacities from his vintage version, you can't be as agile as Neymar if you build your body in the opposite way, 2004 and 2010 Ronaldo seem like two different players. It took some years for Messi to add absurd goalscoring to his arsenal, I think Ronaldo would've gained it too even if he didn't gain 10 kg and focused on striking the goal more than any other player in the world
Had he chose a different path, if I look at Messi as a mix of Modric's game pressence and Ronaldo's goalscoring, Ronaldo could've had Messi's goalscoring and Neymar's game pressence, and at that point I woulnd't have a problem to compare him toe-to-toe with Messi, as I don't have right now if we have to compare Modric with Xavi for example
I agree genetics also plays a part, but the rest is down to just practice and what goes in your brain.
If at age 5 you had some huge mental leap about beating an opponent which you perfected over 11 years, and it lead to a lot of other discovers you will have a huge benefit over others, so genetics yes does play a part.
Outside of those factors I just don't believe in talent.
Theres a really interesting book out there called The Talent Code. People arent just born good at something, their environment, surroundings, upbringing, education, social circles, life experiences and influences etc etc all contribute to a persons ability to do whatever they excel at.
But for example, can you practice the control on the ball Messi has while running? I mean giving those little touches at full speed.
That's something you're born with.
Mata is 5'7", Franco Baresi one of the greatest defenders ever was just 5'9", only 2 inches taller and considerably shorter than Smalling.
Socrates the brilliant Brazilian attacking midfielder of the late 70's and 80's was well over 6 ft tall.
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