Fair enough, I didn't get that from the later posts I read.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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Not at all. I enjoy letting you beat yourself with stupidity. Says a lot about your logical reasoning when the best you can do in an argument is "virgin" and "get laid"
Ronaldo would have gone down as one of the greatest wingers, IMO. He changed his style in order to be more productive and this has had some bad effects as well.
Fair enough to you for the view that you hold. I just can't see how league domination in the best league in the world can be taken out of the big trophy comparison.
I would really have loved to see that. I'm sure he still would have scored an insane amount of goals, had he gone down that path. I always ask myself why he changed his style so much when entering his peak.
Was it down to personal preference on his behalf? Was it to counter some latent physical problem or a means to prolong his time at top level?
For me it's one of the big "what could have been" questions, like the one what a healthy Ronaldo Luis could have done in his career. Or a more motivated Ronaldinho.
A healthy 10-15 years of Luis Ronaldo and the Messi Ronaldo debate as g.o.a.t doesn't exist.
@Cal?
So having played 160 games less , he only has 40 goals less .
Messi goals to games ratio - 0.78gpg
Ronaldo goals to game ratio - 0.68gpg
Surely even you can see this favours Messi.
So having played 160 games less , he only has 40 goals less .
Messi goals to games ratio - 0.78gpg
Ronaldo goals to game ratio - 0.68gpg
Surely even you can see this favours Messi.
This debate is something sane people should probably stay well away from. But not feeling particularly sane, I'll just say that I find it...interesting (or insane, whatever you like) that it's suddenly become a fact of sorts for his more blinkered disciples that Ronaldo is a “leader”. This is now something he excels at, unlike Messi, who is a – I don't know, non-leader, at any rate. And a bottler at that. Whereas Ronaldo, who won the Euro title by leading his team in the dressing room at half time and by being the player the rest of them all wanted to win it for, is clearly no bottler.
The logic on display is what you'd expect it to be, I suppose.
But I will allow myself to say that even given the context, the arguments offered on these pages since Portugal's win have been sensationally stupid.
None of them are leaders. That would be my take on it. None of them have displayed any striking leadership on the pitch, or any impressive ability to step up and drag their teams to victory when things looked bleak. None of them have seemed particularly apt at getting the best out of their team mates when the flow wasn't on their side. So, I'm not saying that Messi has anything on Ronaldo in that regard (that has to be stressed, I suppose, since people will immediately take any comment as being black or white). I'm just saying that portraying Ronaldo as a “leader” is laughable. That isn't what he has looked as at all for most of his career. And it's not what he looked like until he was carried off the pitch in the final either.
The logic on display is what you'd expect it to be, I suppose.
But I will allow myself to say that even given the context, the arguments offered on these pages since Portugal's win have been sensationally stupid.
None of them are leaders. That would be my take on it. None of them have displayed any striking leadership on the pitch, or any impressive ability to step up and drag their teams to victory when things looked bleak. None of them have seemed particularly apt at getting the best out of their team mates when the flow wasn't on their side. So, I'm not saying that Messi has anything on Ronaldo in that regard (that has to be stressed, I suppose, since people will immediately take any comment as being black or white). I'm just saying that portraying Ronaldo as a “leader” is laughable. That isn't what he has looked as at all for most of his career. And it's not what he looked like until he was carried off the pitch in the final either.
Well said . He's not a leader . His whole attitude can be summed up in one quote
" me me me me me me me me me me" - annoying 3year old
This is a man who's actually said that if Portugal had 3 more cristiano Ronaldos on their team they would win something . Yet as soon as he goes out the team they actually win . Leadership 101. Undermime all your teammates
Agree that neither are great 'leaders'. But what is this, none of them have stepped up to drag their teams to victory? Are you talking only about International Finals?
No, not as such. It's more of a general impression. To what extent do they - as I said - excel at driving their teams on, making their team mates better, being the main man, the general on the pitch, the one who can, when called on, turn the tide, and so forth.
Does either Messi or Ronaldo strike you as being such a player? I'd say no, not least when comparing them to other generals in the history of football.
The amount of players who were both generals and uncommonly talented individuals whose technical prowess was eye catching and rare - is slender. But they do exist. You could argue that Di Stefano, Pelé, Cruyff and Maradona all belong in that category, to mention the most commonly listed GOAT candidates people like to bring up.
I get what you are trying to say. The whole Ronaldo being a leader is overblown. It's just a new found counter in the never ending Messi v Ronaldo debate. Messi similarly lacks some of those attributes that make him as you say a General. They both are individually so brilliant that they often drag their teams by default, that's what I think. Hence, not drag their team seemed off.
Indeed - and that's always part of the equation too. You don't need to be a Roy Keane style "I'm going to drag this thing over the line no matter what" player in order to actually do just that. Being an exceptionally good player will often be enough - whether you're an according-to-Hoyle "leader" or not. And how good you are, at the end of the day, is a matter of what you achieve, using your own skill set, your own set of tangible and intangible positives as a football player. Messi not being a "general" in the sense I implied above isn't a deciding argument against him in the GOAT debate, it's just one factor among other factors.
Your point is well worth bringing up - because it's subtle. Most points made in these debates are not.
Cheers. These debates are much saner when you wait a few days, sometimes weeks after an event that caused the sudden revisit.
@Chesterlestreet @Moonred
In a different thread there is a comparison between Messi and Maradona on that topic, written by Joga Bonito.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/messi-retires-from-argentina.418969/page-16
Just in case you haven't read it yet - I think it's great.
In a different thread there is a comparison between Messi and Maradona on that topic, written by Joga Bonito.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/messi-retires-from-argentina.418969/page-16
Just in case you haven't read it yet - I think it's great.
As I've pointed out repeatedly, that completely ignores the fact that Messi started off at a very dominant Barca side whereas Ronaldo as a winger at Sporting@Cal?
So having played 160 games less , he only has 40 goals less .
Messi goals to games ratio - 0.78gpg
Ronaldo goals to game ratio - 0.68gpg
Surely even you can see this favours Messi.
Also if anything that stat merely shows that Messi matured earlier than Ronaldo. Something to do with all those hormone supplements?
This thread is an absolute goldmine, 10/10, lightens up my mood
They used to score a roughly the same rate, nowadays it's anything but close.
La Liga + CL 15/16
Ronaldo 51 goals
Messi 32 goals
I can't believe anyone would compare the two to be honest.
One is a superstar of a human footballer.
The other is from another universe.
One is a superstar of a human footballer.
The other is from another universe.
This is another cringeworthy thing. The perception that Ronaldo is selfish jerk and Messi is some kind hearted selfless guy.
The amount of power he exerts at Barca is just crazy. Else how did Tata Martino get the Barca job? He never managed a big team and hadn't even managed in Europe I think? Even Moyes had some credentials for the United job. He also shouts at others for not passing him the ball. (I remember some youngster a few years back got fired at by Messi for not passing to him). He has immense power at Barca which no one does at Madrid (except Perez).
There's no difference between Messi and Ronaldo in selfishness imo
Aguero is certainly world class, as is so Maria in my opinion. Let's not go down the route of how you define this though, my point is that Argentina have a far better team than Portugal, and yet have failed to win anything, with messi.
Whether or not he was their best performer, Ronaldo led them (as captain) to a major tournament when nobody fancied them, and they certainly wouldn't have achieved it without his input in qualifying and the tournament itself.
Ronaldo demands the highest standards of himself and his teammates, he can come across selfish, throw tantrums etc. But this is purely his immense will to succeed, it won't be to everyone's liking though. Off the field is an entirely different story, it is hard to think of a more charitable and humble footballer for those who have bothered to read into it.
Messi has been portrayed as some sort of supreme ethical being, when in fact he too has shown undesirable personality traits, kicking the ball at fans, petulant fouls and for Argentina, seeming to alienate rather than unite his teammates. This doesn't fit the narrative though.
Perhaps this explains why Messi didn't pay taxes? He is a supreme ethical being from another universe with no obligation to pay any taxes!
You are not very good with context, are you?
You conveniently ignore the fact that Ronaldo played 48 games vs 38 for Messi (CL+Liga). Also Suarez is our main striker, not Messi. Messi plays behind Suarez and shares penalty/free kick, which something your idol would never do.
When you use the word 'rate', you check it against number of matches or number of minutes - it's 0.93 GPG for Ronaldo vs 0.83 GPG for Messi for 2015-16 season. And that considering he shoots less than Ronaldo, takes less panalties, and not being the primary striker.
Yep. Well put.
Messi has won the ballon d'or, so has Ronaldo.
I had the same discussion with him one or two pages earlier. It's futile.
He leaves out all goals scored for the national team (because it favours Messi), while of course regarding the titles won with those teams as a major point in case for Ronaldo. So performances for the NT are optionally totally neglectable or supremely important for the evaluation of a player's season, depending on the outcome of a particular partial result.
When I called him out on that, he gave a wrong number for Messi's NT goals (6 instead of 9), while of course saying nothing about the number of games played (because, again, it favours Messi).
They counted Ronaldo's goals in friendlies, while not counting Messi's.
Relying on a faulty source can happen, but you also could have said something about that back then.
Was Pele that big of a leader? He was never Brazil's captain, not even in 1970 when the team was captained from Alberto who was half a decade his junior, and Pele was already established as Brazil's (mankind's?) best ever player. He also looks a complete idiot every time he speaks, so probably he wasn't that big of a leader, but just a supremely gifted footballer.
There's a strong case for him leading well in 1970. On paper Brazil's midfield and attack was an overdose of centrally-orientated playmaker types. There was Jairzinho - very direct wide attacker always cutting goalwards, Rivelino - a classic ball-hogging 10 playing in a more functional role out wide, Tostao - an attacking midfielder basically playing as a 9.5, Gerson - classic playmaker, and Pele himself. It shouldn't have worked but Pele takes a lot of credit for gelling the attack, making it a functioning unit and playing a slightly more self-sacrificing role than what he'd been doing for most of his career in order to get the best out of the whole. Zagallo obviously had to work hard on it and on Pele to embrace that way of playing.
Cal? Is still arguing?
These stats talk is stupid. You use it when your talking about players who are nearly identical in skill, like : Maradona vs Messi, etc
You just look at Messi with the ball and he's just simply better than Ronaldo, its not a matter of stats. 99% of the world agrees with this, lets just move on.
You just look at Messi with the ball and he's just simply better than Ronaldo, its not a matter of stats. 99% of the world agrees with this, lets just move on.
Yeah, he was a great player and could be said that he lead by example, but he definitely doesn't look to me that he had Maradona-like charisma and leadership.
Clearly not the case, but go on, live in your own little dream.
He only played 25 times for sporting Lisbon .
Fergie today:
“Usually top players can only play for about five or six years at the highest level, then it's over. Cristiano has been doing this for over 10 years. That makes him so exceptional.
"Every generation has its special footballer, Cristiano is currently."
“Usually top players can only play for about five or six years at the highest level, then it's over. Cristiano has been doing this for over 10 years. That makes him so exceptional.
"Every generation has its special footballer, Cristiano is currently."
Hardly surprising really is it?
United before he turned good after the 2006 WC was hardly dominant... also I've already acknowledged that Messi matured at an earlier age.
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