Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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When all is said and done , I think this debate will end much the same way pele and Gerd Muller did . Pele , forever going to be regarded as a GOAT, and Muller as just one of the greatest goalscorers. If there had been forums back then you would probably have had people claiming Muller was better .
You do a disservice to Ronaldo. I don't think he's in such a limited category at all, especially based on his entire career. Also you underestimated how well marketed he is. He has mediocre finals and they're masked by him scoring an irrelevant penalty, or a relevant one in a shootout. He becomes a great leader and key man in the final after doing nothing in the game itself. He knows how to milk his successes even if he hasnt played genius football.

But yeah, I agree that the comparison with Messi falls flat. He was a wonderful player for us and has been an even better one for Madrid. But I've always considered the "battle" with Messi to be a manufactured one with the latter clearly being the better player and easily the best ive seen.
 
Luckily we all know by now that you can't always take statistics at face value. As for your opinion, that's entirely fine, but if you look through the POTT thread you'll see how often people mention Nani and Pepe rather than Ronaldo.
I watched all of Portugal's games and didn't consider Nani to have had a particularly good tournament, they certainly would not have reached the knockout stages without Ronaldo's contribution.

It should be considered a big plus for Ronaldo versus Messi that he has managed to win an international tournament when playing for an unfancied team in which he is the only world class player versus Messi, who plays for Argentina; surely the best team in the copa america and with more world class players.

History remembers the trophies a player wins; this will go down as part of Ronaldo's legacy.
 
I watched all of Portugal's games and didn't consider Nani to have had a particularly good tournament, they certainly would not have reached the knockout stages without Ronaldo's contribution.

It should be considered a big plus for Ronaldo versus Messi that he has managed to win an international tournament when playing for an unfancied team in which he is the only world class player versus Messi, who plays for Argentina; surely the best team in the copa america and with more world class players.

History remembers the trophies a player wins; this will go down as part of Ronaldo's legacy.

I really don't think there are many world class players for Argentina other than messi . Maybe mascherano . Aguero is overrated , di Maria incredibly inconsistent , higuain the same .... Ronaldo is in a similar boat with Portugal as Pepe ( when he's not being a dick) is capable of being one of the better centre backs in the game as he just proved in the euros .
 
I really don't think there are many world class players for Argentina other than messi . Maybe mascherano . Aguero is overrated , di Maria incredibly inconsistent , higuain the same ....

He has been consistently injured during last 3 international tournaments.
 
I watched all of Portugal's games and didn't consider Nani to have had a particularly good tournament, they certainly would not have reached the knockout stages without Ronaldo's contribution.

It should be considered a big plus for Ronaldo versus Messi that he has managed to win an international tournament when playing for an unfancied team in which he is the only world class player versus Messi, who plays for Argentina; surely the best team in the copa america and with more world class players.

History remembers the trophies a player wins; this will go down as part of Ronaldo's legacy.

History doesn't just remember the trophies a player wins, it also remembers how much they actually contributed to the wins too. Ronaldo might be Portugal's only world class player but, even still, there were a few Portugal players who contributed more than him over the course of the tournament.

My opinion is basically this (from the POTT thread):

Probably Griezmann or Pepe.

Ronaldo almost certainly wasn't the best player of the tournament. I mean, he was quite good...but he essentially scored three goals in two different games, and in not one of them was his goal a sole, decisive winner, or even one that could've been said to have won the game for his team alone. His goal against Wales was excellent, but Portugal would've probably still won that anyway.

His overall game wasn't that good, and if we're judging his contributions then it'd have to be by goals, and Griezemann outshone him in that regard comfortably. Ronaldo also never once came up against overly challenging opposition (compared to what France or Germany or even Italy faced), and was injured early in the game when he did face a top team at the tournament.

Portugal's Euro victory could arguably be attributed in large part to their defence at times, and due to that if you're giving it to one of their players it probably should be Pepe or the GK. Nani was also very good, to be fair.

I think people have strayed from the whole point of the "Messi/Ronaldo needs to win an international trophy" argument. The trophy itself doesn't matter as much as the high class performances we assumed would be required from Messi/Ronaldo for their teams to achieve success. The performances are what matter and, in this case, Portugal managed to win the trophy without Ronaldo performing at that high a level.
 
I really don't think there are many world class players for Argentina other than messi . Maybe mascherano . Aguero is overrated , di Maria incredibly inconsistent , higuain the same .... Ronaldo is in a similar boat with Portugal as Pepe ( when he's not being a dick) is capable of being one of the better centre backs in the game as he just proved in the euros .

Aguero is world class. Injury prone but still an absolutely top player.
 
Real Madrid, Barcelona, United and Chelsea too. He also scores a lot in the CL. He is undoubtedly world class.

Na, he's not . Nowhere near consistent enough to be world class but everyone has a different opinion on what that means , and in my mind there are only 4 or 5 players in the modern game befitting of that tag .
 
Na, he's not . Nowhere near consistent enough to be world class but everyone has a different opinion on what that means , and in my mind there are only 4 or 5 players in the modern game befitting of that tag .
He is very consistent, and has been since his time at Atletico. If you look at his goals per game since Atletico, it is very good. He scores over 20 goals almost every year, with numbers in the high twenties and low thirty's in several seasons too. Despite his injuries, he still puts up great numbers. When he is on top form, I would only have Suarez ahead of him, but he is at least in the top 5 strikers. Fair enough if you have such standards for what is considered to be world class, but I am sure the vast majority of people would disagree that there are only 4 or 5 players that are world class and would consider Aguero to be deserving of that tag.
 
Revan, woot? :eek:

Ronaldo is not in the same tier as Di Stéfano and Cruyff. Just to focus on the latter, once we're out of 'the moment' of his EURO afterglow, or when Ronaldo's retired - and people look back at his career, he will definitely be considered inferior to Johan.

Athleticism: An argument repeated in Cristiano's favor, and how he's a complete attacker. Cruyff matches him step for step in an era based comparison - magnificent athlete, probably the most balanced footballer ever - who refused to go down after tackles, evasive, two footed, quick, great in the air (10% of his goals came via headers). Ronaldo is more built - and has more muscles, but Cruyff was a remarkable football based athlete who was both agile and strong on and off the ball.

Goal-scoring prowess: Advantage Ronaldo for this criterion. He's admittedly a better goalscorer - hungrier, gets into better positions, takes cleaner routes; and while Cruyff regularly scorer 30+ goals per season at his peak, he's no match for Ronaldo in terms volume based goal-scoring statistical impact.

Creativity and technique: This is where Cruyff pulls away. One of the top European passers of all time across all positions, and not just for attackers. ANd one of the greatest technicians (if not THE greatest) in football history. You could measure his impact on the game in terms of statistics, and key passes, and chances created - but to fully grasp his ability to have an impact on the game from all over the pitch, you have to rewatch his games and get overwhelmed by his beautiful ball control, and touch and general contributions to the flow of the match (something Ronaldo has struggled with for a while now).

Tactical acumen and leadership: Again, advantage Cruyff - who was Michels' on-field general, and one step ahead of the opponents. Time and time again, Cruyff floated across to cover weak-spots, bark orders, get players into position - while Ronaldo demands more freedom for himself, and can act petulant when things don't go his way. Cruyff would win penalties and give them to his team-mates to preserve the harmony (apparently scored 10):

Ronaldo would gladly strip the ball off 'em and attempt a bunk free-kick, or take a freebie from the spot.

International performance: Ronaldo winning the EURO doesn't settle things here. On a performance basis he wasn't even in the Top 10 of the 2016 Championship. Whereas Cruyff owned World Cup 1974 - with only Maradona 1986 and Platini 1984 being conclusively superior performances in an international tournament:





Coincidentally, both Ronaldo and Cruyff scorer 3 and assisted 3, but:

Impact on the club: Ajax was a European football dwarf, and Cruyff helped lead them to 3 European Cup finals, and 3 straight wins. That's in stark contrast with Ronaldo's European Cup wins (though again, coincidentally 0 they stand at 3 wins apiece). Ajax had it lowest historical rating when Cruyff made his debut:

From there, he helped take them to their highest aggregate rating ever, in about half a decade.

Goes to Barcelona, and does stuff like this:



Legacy in pure footballing terms: Cruyff is one of the founders of a revolutionized brand of totaalvoetbal - after Sárosi and Sindelar and co. And comparable to the likes of Di Stéfano, Pedernera, Pelé, Zizinho - on a more global scale - in terms of being a player that transcended his position. Ditto for Beckenbauer - who 'made' the libero position. 50 years from now, Beckenbauer will still be THE Lebero, and Cruyff will still be the most iconic total footballer. It's a pity that folks are ready to propel Ronaldo into the Cruyff/Beckenbauer tier on the basis of the European Cup win, and now the EURO - where he wasn't overly impressive either. Kinda like checking off an item on a checklist.

Geez man, how can I reply to this.

I'll start by saying that Cruyff is my favorite player that has played before my time. I liked him more than Pele and Maradona.

I quite agree with your post, especially with Cruyff's influence. I actually pointed him in some other thread as the most influential football man ever.

I quite agree that the only thing Ronaldo has on him are goals. Cruyff was a good goalscorer, but Ron is something else. If we take their 10 peak years, it is 425 goals vs 279 goals. This is a big difference, for every 2 goals Cruyff scored, Ron scored more than 3. To make it even more impressive, Ronaldo did it 10 years in a row, while for Cruyff I had to choose his best 10 years.

After Ronaldo won his third Ballon D'Or (I think that his second was undeserved and should have gone to Ribery), I said that Ronaldo is already on Beckenbauer category and is just below Cruyff and Di Stefano. Since then, Ronaldo has won an another UCL and lead his national team to win a big international trophy. I am one of those who thinks that Ronaldo actually had a good tournament, and was their most important player. Obviously, he wasn't anywhere as good as Cruyff in 1974, but still.

I think that Ronaldo will win his fourth Ballon D'Or and so will have one more than Cruyff. I think that Ronaldo's peak will last quite longer than Cruyff's, and while there isn't a match about which of them was a better 'player', at the same time there isn't a match about which of them was the better 'goalscorer'. And actually, I am one of the few caftards who think that goals might matter in football, after all.

With the success of Ronaldo this year, and at the same time, all the records he has been broken during the years, I think that it is time to put him in the same category as Cruyff and Di Stefano. So, a top 6 player of all time. To get into the Messi/Maradona category, in my opinion he needs to win a world cup, by completely dominating it. Same about Messi in order to get rated in the same level (or above) Pele.
 
Revan, woot? :eek:

Ronaldo is not in the same tier as Di Stéfano and Cruyff. Just to focus on the latter, once we're out of 'the moment' of his EURO afterglow, or when Ronaldo's retired - and people look back at his career, he will definitely be considered inferior to Johan.

Athleticism: An argument repeated in Cristiano's favor, and how he's a complete attacker. Cruyff matches him step for step in an era based comparison - magnificent athlete, probably the most balanced footballer ever - who refused to go down after tackles, evasive, two footed, quick, great in the air (10% of his goals came via headers). Ronaldo is more built - and has more muscles, but Cruyff was a remarkable football based athlete who was both agile and strong on and off the ball.

Goal-scoring prowess: Advantage Ronaldo for this criterion. He's admittedly a better goalscorer - hungrier, gets into better positions, takes cleaner routes; and while Cruyff regularly scorer 30+ goals per season at his peak, he's no match for Ronaldo in terms volume based goal-scoring statistical impact.

Creativity and technique: This is where Cruyff pulls away. One of the top European passers of all time across all positions, and not just for attackers. ANd one of the greatest technicians (if not THE greatest) in football history. You could measure his impact on the game in terms of statistics, and key passes, and chances created - but to fully grasp his ability to have an impact on the game from all over the pitch, you have to rewatch his games and get overwhelmed by his beautiful ball control, and touch and general contributions to the flow of the match (something Ronaldo has struggled with for a while now).

Tactical acumen and leadership: Again, advantage Cruyff - who was Michels' on-field general, and one step ahead of the opponents. Time and time again, Cruyff floated across to cover weak-spots, bark orders, get players into position - while Ronaldo demands more freedom for himself, and can act petulant when things don't go his way. Cruyff would win penalties and give them to his team-mates to preserve the harmony (apparently scored 10):

Ronaldo would gladly strip the ball off 'em and attempt a bunk free-kick, or take a freebie from the spot.

International performance: Ronaldo winning the EURO doesn't settle things here. On a performance basis he wasn't even in the Top 10 of the 2016 Championship. Whereas Cruyff owned World Cup 1974 - with only Maradona 1986 and Platini 1984 being conclusively superior performances in an international tournament:





Coincidentally, both Ronaldo and Cruyff scorer 3 and assisted 3, but:

Impact on the club: Ajax was a European football dwarf, and Cruyff helped lead them to 3 European Cup finals, and 3 straight wins. That's in stark contrast with Ronaldo's European Cup wins (though again, coincidentally 0 they stand at 3 wins apiece). Ajax had it lowest historical rating when Cruyff made his debut:

From there, he helped take them to their highest aggregate rating ever, in about half a decade.

Goes to Barcelona, and does stuff like this:



Legacy in pure footballing terms: Cruyff is one of the founders of a revolutionized brand of totaalvoetbal - after Sárosi and Sindelar and co. And comparable to the likes of Di Stéfano, Pedernera, Pelé, Zizinho - on a more global scale - in terms of being a player that transcended his position. Ditto for Beckenbauer - who 'made' the libero position. 50 years from now, Beckenbauer will still be THE Lebero, and Cruyff will still be the most iconic total footballer. It's a pity that folks are ready to propel Ronaldo into the Cruyff/Beckenbauer tier on the basis of the European Cup win, and now the EURO - where he wasn't overly impressive either. Kinda like checking off an item on a checklist.

I like the way how you put away the goalscoring part in a short paragraph. ;) The fact is Ronaldo has broken all sorts of records (50+ goals for 6 or 7 seasons now)? All time topscorer in the CL...

Anyway, one key point you've conveniently left out if that the old European Cup is easier to win than the Champions League,.
 
It's comforting to know that in 100 years and people are debating the best ever , messis YouTube highlights are better and more varied than Ronaldo
 
I like the way how you put away the goalscoring part in a short paragraph. ;) The fact is Ronaldo has broken all sorts of records (50+ goals for 6 or 7 seasons now)? All time topscorer in the CL...

Anyway, one key point you've conveniently left out if that the old European Cup is easier to win than the Champions League,.
You make it sound a bit like Cristiano Ronaldo is some mythical embodiment of goalscoring the likes of which the world has never seen but is it really like that? My casual impression is that he is setting these records, in the era with the most goals, with the harshest refereeing, (best pitches/equipment etc) in a great Madrid side that often enjoys a sizeable advantage in quality over lesser sides in La Liga. He's had both top teams geared to give him the most freedom and takes full advantage of having 7-8 shots a game.

Even though I'd agree that his longevity and consistency in output is super impressive, it's in the era where players are generally most professional about how they manage their fitness and sports science/training is at its highest. imo Cristiano Ronaldo is this generation's greatest incarnation of the complete forward, but he drops to the periphery too much when I watch him in big games for me to say he's more special than that.
 
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What do you believe that Messi would prefer?

A. A winner's cup.

B. A loser's youtube video.

He would prefer to get injured in one of the 3 finals he carried Argentina to, only for his team to win the tournament for him, whilst looking better at the same time. :)
 
He would LOOOVE to get injured at the 25 minute and win the gold! Winthout missing the penalty! Unfortunately, he retired...

It's obvious you have nothing worthwhile to add and are simply one of his numerous fan-boys so this is where i'll stop.
 
It's obvious you have nothing worthwhile to add and are simply one of his numerous fan-boys so this is where i'll stop.

The point is that Messi has retired from international football.

No gold metals for him.

He played with a great team that included Aguero and Di Maria and yet... zero cups.

He is nothing like Maradona. Too bad...
 
The point is that Messi has retired from international football.

No gold metals for him.

He played with a great team that included Aguero and Di Maria and yet... zero cups.

He is nothing like Maradona. Too bad...

Yet they were both injured in finals or just coming back and not match sharp.

Ronaldo is nothing like Maradona at international level either.

In fact the only great international players this generation are the spanish squad who won 2 Euros and a WC.
 
The point is that Messi has retired from international football.

No gold metals for him.

He played with a great team that included Aguero and Di Maria and yet... zero cups.

He is nothing like Maradona. Too bad...

To be pedantic Messi does have a Gold Medal.
 
To be pedantic Messi does have a Gold Medal.

Nick is too far gone using matetialistic arguments versus actual footballing ability. Im surprised a moth landing on his face hasnt been used as his supporting argument yet.
 
The point is that Messi has retired from international football.

No gold metals for him.

He played with a great team that included Aguero and Di Maria and yet... zero cups.

He is nothing like Maradona. Too bad...

You have absolutely no idea as to why he retired, if anything I'd wager it has more to do with the Argentinian FA than it does his international struggles. Secondly, Ronaldo might have a gold medal in a tournament that he was hugely underwhelming in but lets look at this objectively and not through your love for Ronaldo, shall we. The fact is that Portugal played very good in the final, without him even on the pitch, whilst there were several players who outperformed him throughout the tournament.

In regards to Messi, who you play with doesn't mean squat when they don't perform, you went on and on about how much of a leader Ronaldo is when I could argue that Messi carrying those under-performing "stars" to several finals is more leadership than throwing your hands around on the sidelines. It's the common consensus that the Argentinian players are all underwhelming for their country. Also you claim that Portugal is a lesser team than Argentina but if this tournament is anything to go by they are superior to Argentina. Ronaldo was arguably their 4th or 5th best player overall throughout the tournament, had one of the worst performances of the tournament against Poland, was anonymous the first two games, wasn't a factor in the final and yet Portugal still won the tournament. Messi in the last Copa for example, had a much better tournament than Ronaldo did this Euros but Messi came up short, does that make the achievement of one more or less impressive?

If anything, we can compare them head to head in the 2014 World Cup, the same tournament in which Ronaldo couldn't motivate his team to qualify to the KO rounds in a group that consisted of the United States ffs. He scored one goal all group stages in the last irrelevant game against a team that was also going home IIRC. Whilst Messi scored 4 and won MOTM in all games, and proved pivotal for them to qualify in a much harder tournament than the European championship. He was voted MOTM in the round of 16 with his immense run and pass to ADM to win 1-0 against the Swiss. He wasn't as effective against the Belgians and played decent against the Germans but ultimately lost out. He had the most successful dribbles and created the most chances of any player at the tournament.

The one thing I am wondering is if Palacio scored that goal and Argentina won, would you and some others on here be claiming the same you claim about Ronaldo now? Of course not. You have some sort of bias towards one of them and for some reason judge them accordingly. They're the two greatest players of our generation but to use Ronaldo's Euro Cup victory as something to beat Messi with, especially considering for the most part he's arguably been better for Argentina is harsh IMO, especially in a tournament like this where Portugal rode their luck and he wasn't even their best player let alone the player of the tournament.

International football isn't the pinnacle of sport anymore, this isn't the 80's, the Euro Cup and how dire it was and the past few tournaments proves that. The Champions League is where the best players in the world play eachother, in environments they are accustomed to, with the world's best managers.

If anything, I'd argue Ronaldo and Messi are far superior to players like Muller, Platini etc. but have been much less effective with their national teams than those kinds of players. Both Ronaldo and Messi have been underwhelming for their nations.
 
Why does this debate keep going on....

As a quote I saw said:

"One day Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi will retire and normalcy will return to Football.

Records will stay for years and not get broken every week.

Hat-tricks will again become the highlight of a players season, not the expectation.

A half century of goals in a single season will be something to tell your grandchildren about, not just another seasonal target to be met.

The Ballon d'Or will become a FIFA prize again, rather than the person property of just two men.

Until that day, Let's stop comparing and enjoy them while it lasts"
 
Why does this debate keep going on....

As a quote I saw said:

"One day Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi will retire and normalcy will return to Football.

Records will stay for years and not get broken every week.

Hat-tricks will again become the highlight of a players season, not the expectation.

A half century of goals in a single season will be something to tell your grandchildren about, not just another seasonal target to be met.

The Ballon d'Or will become a FIFA prize again, rather than the person property of just two men.

Until that day, Let's stop comparing and enjoy them while it lasts"

Indeed. I've been arguing that Ronaldo didn't achieve much in this tournament but, at the same time, I know I'll be lucky to see maybe three better footballers in my lifetime (assuming I live another 50 or so years). It would be a shame if the Messi/Ronaldo divide saw us underappreciate their talents.
 
I like the way how you put away the goalscoring part in a short paragraph. ;) The fact is Ronaldo has broken all sorts of records (50+ goals for 6 or 7 seasons now)? All time topscorer in the CL...

Anyway, one key point you've conveniently left out if that the old European Cup is easier to win than the Champions League,.
The goalscoring part is in a short paragraph because it's only one aspect of attacking play. And before you envision me as some sort of overblown critic - keep in mind that I still rank him among the top 10 (just not in the Cruyff tier - who is the best European footballer of all time with Beckenbauer) and have defended Ronaldo in the past. Wrt this thread, I could've also dedicated separate paragraphs to Cruyff's superior dribbling skills (which were a shade below Maradona/Messi), his imagination (which ranks in the top tier of European players), his ball skills (again, just a step below Maradona/Messi), the variety in his game (again, GOAT tier for European footballers), the fact that he was one of the pioneers of the False 9 position (which is much harder to play than charging up the left flank - given that Cruyff was the first line of offense and defense - the architect, and the finisher) - but didn't, because they're individual aspects.

People can harp on Ronaldo's goalscoring record as much as they want, but not only did the game of Cruyff or Platini or Maradona transcend 50+ goal stats - it's only one category for judging footballers. Infact, IMO, United Ronaldo was a much better footballer than the Real version - who puts up crazy goal stats but is a worse overall player. He could go on crazy dribble runs, slice up defenses on his own, try something different every game, maintain a balance between scoring and setting up countless chances for his team-mates. Might just be me, but if he had maintained that sort of level, I'd have judged him to be a better footballer than I do currently - because now, his game is significant reduced - which is a pity because there was a time when he had everyone on the edge of their seats - like a magician, of sorts.

The European Cup being easier to win than the Champions League is up to interpretation, and again, I've not left it out on a convenience basis, despite what you think. When Cruyff reached his first European Cup final, he had to beat a Benfica team with Eusébio, Coluna, Simoes and co. And had to face a Milan team with Rivera (eventual Ballon D'Or winner), Hamrin, Schnellinger, Prati, Rosato, etc etc in the final. And he had to beat out a Feyenoord team with Van Hanegem, Mouljin, Israël, Kidval, Jansen domestically (who won the European Cup the next season vs Jock Stein's Celtic) - before even qualifying for the European Cup. Over the next 3 seasons, he had to beat that Celtic team, Internazionale, Bayern Munich, Benfica (again), Arsenal, Atlético - whilst winning domestically, and facing the likes of Beckenbauer, Facchetti, Burgnich, Breitner, Coelho, Müller, Eusébio, Mazzola, Dalgligh, Coluna, Johnstone, Simoes, Jair, Hoeneß in the Cup. Ajax didn't just waltz into the final, and beat whoever, whenever. The qualification itself was harder given that Top 4 teams weren't guaranteed a spot.

eg. Watch this game where Ajax lost. Cruyff was the biggest presence outside of Rivera (instead of being marginal for 85 minutes, and scoring a goal to get on the stat-sheet):



If we put the old European Cup rules in current football, Ronaldo would've probably participated in 1 European Cup campaign since joining Madrid (including missing out on the seasons where they eventually won - because they weren't domestic champions). How good would the aggregate goal records look then? Yes, he was facing Messi's Barcelona, but that's part of the era based context, and why transposing rules from era to another is much more complex than simply - The European Cup was easy back then.

Also consider where Ajax started when Cruyff made his debut. He didn't walk into a United team where Fergie was already one of the Top 3 managers of all time, or a Madrid team that spent the highest amount of money in one transfer window in history. Cruyff built Ajax with Michels, and then smashed Europe - including the climb from the relegation zone when Michels took over, to then competing domestically, then reaching the final vs Rivera, and then beating everyone in their path - with Cruyff as the crown jewel - a player who scored with aplomb, controlled the game, defended - played all over the place, and was their spiritual focal point.

PS: Again, the post might seem overly critical, however I'm not denying that Ronaldo is a great, great player - one of the Top 10 football has ever seen. Because there's more to football than goals, and from that standpoint - Ronaldo does not have a case against the likes of Cruyff or Beckenbauer. His game is simply too condensed since joining Madrid (and the last part of his United career) to be considered in the same light as those two, among others.
 
:lol:
Na, he's not . Nowhere near consistent enough to be world class but everyone has a different opinion on what that means , and in my mind there are only 4 or 5 players in the modern game befitting of that tag .
You don't watch Aguero then:lol:
Over 100 PL goals in 4 seasons isn't consistent:rolleyes:
 
The goalscoring part is in a short paragraph because it's only one aspect of attacking play. And before you envision me as some sort of overblown critic - keep in mind that I still rank him among the top 10 (just not in the Cruyff tier - who is the best European footballer of all time with Beckenbauer) and have defended Ronaldo in the past. Wrt this thread, I could've also dedicated separate paragraphs to Cruyff's superior dribbling skills (which were a shade below Maradona/Messi), his imagination (which ranks in the top tier of European players), his ball skills (again, just a step below Maradona/Messi), the variety in his game (again, GOAT tier for European footballers), the fact that he was one of the pioneers of the False 9 position (which is much harder to play than charging up the left flank - given that Cruyff was the first line of offense and defense - the architect, and the finisher) - but didn't, because they're individual aspects.

People can harp on Ronaldo's goalscoring record as much as they want, but not only did the game of Cruyff or Platini or Maradona transcend 50+ goal stats - it's only one category for judging footballers. Infact, IMO, United Ronaldo was a much better footballer than the Real version - who puts up crazy goal stats but is a worse overall player. He could go on crazy dribble runs, slice up defenses on his own, try something different every game, maintain a balance between scoring and setting up countless chances for his team-mates. Might just be me, but if he had maintained that sort of level, I'd have judged him to be a better footballer than I do currently - because now, his game is significant reduced - which is a pity because there was a time when he had everyone on the edge of their seats - like a magician, of sorts.

The European Cup being easier to win than the Champions League is up to interpretation, and again, I've not left it out on a convenience basis, despite what you think. When Cruyff reached his first European Cup final, he had to beat a Benfica team with Eusébio, Coluna, Simoes and co. And had to face a Milan team with Rivera (eventual Ballon D'Or winner), Hamrin, Schnellinger, Prati, Rosato, etc etc in the final. And he had to beat out a Feyenoord team with Van Hanegem, Mouljin, Israël, Kidval, Jansen domestically (who won the European Cup the next season vs Jock Stein's Celtic) - before even qualifying for the European Cup. Over the next 3 seasons, he had to beat that Celtic team, Internazionale, Bayern Munich, Benfica (again), Arsenal, Atlético - whilst winning domestically, and facing the likes of Beckenbauer, Facchetti, Burgnich, Breitner, Coelho, Müller, Eusébio, Mazzola, Dalgligh, Coluna, Johnstone, Simoes, Jair, Hoeneß in the Cup. Ajax didn't just waltz into the final, and beat whoever, whenever. The qualification itself was harder given that Top 4 teams weren't guaranteed a spot.

eg. Watch this game where Ajax lost. Cruyff was the biggest presence outside of Rivera (instead of being marginal for 85 minutes, and scoring a goal to get on the stat-sheet):



If we put the old European Cup rules in current football, Ronaldo would've probably participated in 1 European Cup campaign since joining Madrid (including missing out on the seasons where they eventually won - because they weren't domestic champions). How good would the aggregate goal records look then? Yes, he was facing Messi's Barcelona, but that's part of the era based context, and why transposing rules from era to another is much more complex than simply - The European Cup was easy back then.

Also consider where Ajax started when Cruyff made his debut. He didn't walk into a United team where Fergie was already one of the Top 3 managers of all time, or a Madrid team that spent the highest amount of money in one transfer window in history. Cruyff built Ajax with Michels, and then smashed Europe - including the climb from the relegation zone when Michels took over, to then competing domestically, then reaching the final vs Rivera, and then beating everyone in their path - with Cruyff as the crown jewel - a player who scored with aplomb, controlled the game, defended - played all over the place, and was their spiritual focal point.

PS: Again, the post might seem overly critical, however I'm not denying that Ronaldo is a great, great player - one of the Top 10 football has ever seen. Because there's more to football than goals, and from that standpoint - Ronaldo does not have a case against the likes of Cruyff or Beckenbauer. His game is simply too condensed since joining Madrid (and the last part of his United career) to be considered in the same light as those two, among others.

That's a very detailed reply and whilst I disagree with most of these, respect your opinion, everybody appreciates different things in footballers.

The European Cup was easier to win because the participants are not as good, I'm sure no one disagrees that the 2nd-4th placed sides in the big leagues are better than the champions of minnows. Better teams in the competition = harder to win, the same for the Euro vs the Copa America.

The EC was harder to qualify for.

I just think you're underestimating the amazingness of the goal scoring figures Ronaldo (and until recently, Messi) are putting up each season for so many years.

There have been great scorers in the past and none has ever come close to those kind of records on a consistent basis with the exception of Pele, who included all kinds of random games in his record.

Goals wins games and I believe ultimately, scoring goals is the most important aspect of football.
 
Omg, all of a sudden Aguero/Di Maria/Mascherano and Higuain aren't top class players.

Messi fans ladies and gentlemen!
 
Omg, all of a sudden Aguero/Di Maria/Mascherano and Higuain aren't top class players.

Messi fans ladies and gentlemen!
Like I said somewhere since Sunday, Pepe will soon be elevated to Baresi level and the rest of the Portugal side known as Naniesta, Ederinho, etc...
 
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