Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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Fergus' son said:
You would think this was obvious but clearly not - the bumps are because Ronaldo now has an international trophy and Messi does not - not sure if you're aware but their international achievements are quite a point of discussion throughout this whole debate.
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Yes but their international achievements are important in the context of their performances at major competitions, not just in terms of who ends up with the most trophies regardless of what they did/didn't contribute to getting those trophies.

The idea is that they're supposed to lead their teams to trophies and the performances they put in to do that mark them apart. In this case Ronaldo had nothing to do with Portugal winning the final, so them winning the final proves nothing in regard to Ronaldo's performance.
 
Messi missed an important penalty. He never won anything with Argentina, at a time when Brazil is not that good. Argentina has won plenty of trophies - before Messi.

On the other hand, Ronaldo just won the European cup with Portugal. Portugal had never won anything before Ronaldo. Ever.

Ronaldo > Messi
 
nick2004 said:
He never won anything with Argentina, at a time when Brazil is not that good.
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That's flawed logic.

The current Chile team are absolutely fantastic. IMO as good as any of the teams from Europe right now.

And of course Germany are a great team as well.

Why are Brazil relevant?
 
Pink Moon said:
That's flawed logic.

The current Chile team are absolutely fantastic. IMO as good as any of the teams from Europe right now.

And of course Germany are a great team as well.

Why are Brazil relevant?
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In Copa America, Brazil is always relevant.

On the other hand, if Messi is not good enough to help Argentina beat Chile, then...
 
nick2004 said:
In Copa America, Brazil is always relevant.

On the other hand, if Messi is not good enough to help Argentina beat Chile, then...
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Ronaldo has also been playing at a World Class level for far longer than Messi. Non-stop since 2005-06. That fact alone gives him an edge on head-to-head. :D
 
Eboue said:
You realize he is older, right?
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Yes he is. But how does it matter? He is still competing with Messi every season right? So, he is not going away anytime soon, while Messi's output has clearly seem to be on a decline judging by the past 2 seasons. Isn't it? In fact Messi has already retired from one form of football(international football), while Ronaldo has just won a trophy in that one.

It would not be outrageous to suggest Ronaldo would perform at world-class level for a longer duration than Messi, irrespective of the age difference.
 
baanke laal said:
Yes he is. But how does it matter? He is still competing with Messi every season right? So, he is not going away anytime soon, while Messi's output has clearly seem to be on a decline judging by the past 2 seasons. Isn't it? In fact Messi has already retired from one form of football(international football), while Ronaldo has just won a trophy in that one.

It would not be outrageous to suggest Ronaldo would perform at world-class level for a longer duration than Messi, irrespective of the age difference.
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Over 100 goals, over 40 assists, two league titles, two Copa Del Reys and a CL in the last two years. That is decline?
 
baanke laal said:
Compare the same (G/A output) with his past 2-3 seasons and you would see the decline (By Messi/Ronaldo standards, not Wayne Rooney standards).
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That's a rather simplistic argument. The decline is kinda blown out of proportion because if you scratch the surface, he's scored 0.93 goals per game over the last 3 seasons, and provided 0.40 assists per game - vs 1.12 goals per game, and 0.33 assist per game for the preceding 3 seasons - while having injury issues, and playing a full season under Tata Martino - who didn't have a lot of harmony with the team. So it's by no means a decline of him as a player because the two columns kinda even out, especially when you compare the decreased volume of game he's played in, and some of the tactical inconsistencies the team had.

Another wrinkle to consider is that Messi is not playing as a False 9 anymore (hence he's further away from goal - and not operating in central areas - with direct access to the goal), and his game is more predicated on creating because of the void left by Xavi the puppet master, and sacrificing a bit of his individuality to strike a balance with Suárez and Neymar, and open the game for them. No other player in football is capable of doing that to the standard Messi does - in terms of playmaking, and touch, and his new found ability to 'manipulate' the game, and scoring the number of goals he does - with the frequency he does so.

That's what sets him apart and makes him so unique (like Cruyff in the past, or seasoned Pelé, or perhaps prime Puskás), and that's something no current player will replicate - infact, he's probably a Top 3 passer is football, as things stand - on top of being a lethal, lethal scorer. The mesmerizing things he does with the ball in almost every single game cannot be easily quantified, which is what exasperates Messi vs Ronaldo 'debate' neutrals, and also those who hold Ronaldo in higher regard - because it seems laced with hyperbolic praise. Will leave it at that, instead of indulging in a circular discussion that's been done a million times before, and will rumble on for the foreseeable future.
 
Let's imagine the inverse situation.

In 2009, if Ronaldo went to Barca and Messi got a transfer to Real, what would happen?

Ronaldo with Xavi and Iniesta, and later with Neymar and Suarez, would do better or worse than Messi with Real?
 
nick2004 said:
Let's imagine the inverse situation.

In 2009, if Ronaldo went to Barca and Messi got a transfer to Real, what would happen?

Ronaldo with Xavi and Iniesta, and later with Neymar and Suarez, would do better or worse than Messi with Real?
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Ronaldo would have won more.

Consider this, if Messi played for Spain instead?
 
nick2004 said:
Let's imagine the inverse situation.

In 2009, if Ronaldo went to Barca and Messi got a transfer to Real, what would happen?

Ronaldo with Xavi and Iniesta, and later with Neymar and Suarez, would do better or worse than Messi with Real?
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God, if Madrid is such a bad team to play for...
 
When all is said and done, it will come down to how they have performed and what they have won with their countries.
Nobody remembers Napoli's Maradonna as much as Argentina's Maradonna (at least I don't).
Same for Pele's Santos and Pele's Brazil.

Ronaldo's still a UTD product, as a fan take much pride in that.
 
nick2004 said:
In 2009, if Ronaldo went to Barca and Messi got a transfer to Real, what would happen?
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Arguments like these are neither here, nor there - and often fail to acknowledge the nuances involved with great teams, and what made them 'tick'. Based upon Ronaldo's skillset, he is not built to play in a high press, possession oriented team - especially in Pep's system where Barcelona essentially defended with the ball - with Messi and Xavi as the two reference points of the team. Couldn't think of a top, top player more ill-suited for that function than Ronaldo, truth be told. It's like putting Garrincha in Michels' Ajax, or with Di Stéfano and Puskás - and expecting him to be succeed like a Gento. It's not just a matter of putting X great player with Y great player, and the team would've been brilliant - several 'Galactico' teams through the years are a testament to that, and how minor details in chemistry and playing style can make, or break said team.

Ronaldo's perfect for the style of play Madrid employed - bits of possession mixed with springing on the counter-attack, which is his forte - running with momentum and sniffing out weaknesses in the opposition defense with Benzema as the foil, before overwhelming them with his unique blend of skill and athleticism, while the likes of Özil, Di María, and to an extend, Modrić - rallied around him to devastating effect when on song. Ronaldo and Messi were both suited to the team they played/play for, including United for Ronaldo - where Tevez and Rooney opened up lanes for him to run into - a wrinkle introduced by Fergie/Quieroz that brought the best out of him - in terms of goalscoring impact, and movement in the final third. Take Ronaldo or Messi out from the teams they played in, and there's be a huge sink-hole, that probably no other player could've filled - to the same degree, even them being swapped with each other.
 
Jinn said:
When all is said and done, it will come down to how they have performed and what they have won with their countries.
Nobody remembers Napoli's Maradonna as much as Argentina's Maradonna (at least I don't).
Same for Pele's Santos and Pele's Brazil.

Ronaldo's still a UTD product, as a fan take much pride in that.
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Not going to be the case in the future. Especially since the CL is broadcast around the World live. Also Ronaldo is not a Manchester United product.
 
Keeps It tidy said:
Not going to be the case in the future. Especially since the CL is broadcast around the World live. Also Ronaldo is not a Manchester United product.
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I didn't say youth product, however he learnt he's trade with UTD. Before that he was a proper show pony with lots of unrealized talent.
He honed his skills with us, won he's first champions league with us, won his first Ballon d'Or with us. All of that is testament to the hard work he put in at UTD and the hard work UTD did with him.
Yeah, he's a UTD product alright.
 
Nevertheless, he has one up on Messi now. Messi just needs to go out there and win something with Argentina. Simples.
 
Jinn said:
Nevertheless, he has one up on Messi now. Messi just needs to go out there and win something with Argentina. Simples.
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After a match where Ronaldo played less than a fifth of time, in which he didn't do anything memorable... righto.
 
baanke laal said:
Ronaldo has also been playing at a World Class level for far longer than Messi. Non-stop since 2005-06. That fact alone gives him an edge on head-to-head. :D
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That is not far longer. Messi finished third in Ballon D'Or in 2006-2007.
 
GhastlyHun said:
After a match where Ronaldo played less than a fifth of time, in which he didn't do anything memorable... righto.
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Still, he has a winners medal.
It's like saying, does Djimi Traore' deserve a champions league medal. As much as I hate to admit it, who the feck cares, he has one doesn't he?
Fact is, in most finals be it champions league, world cups, european cups the star players usually fail to shine. Ronaldo was injured, it's not like he didn't want to play.
 
baanke laal said:
Compare the same (G/A output) with his past 2-3 seasons and you would see the decline (By Messi/Ronaldo standards, not Wayne Rooney standards).
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Either you should watch more Barca games, or stop spreading nonsense. Output doesn't come from staying within the penalty box waiting for a tap-in. We have Suarez playing as proper striker. There is no decline, infact his last 2 seasons were among the best he ever played from pure team perspective. Messi's standard is not same as Ronaldo, it's much higher. All Ronaldo can do is match his goal scoring numbers and the comparison stops there. If goals were the sole criteria, Suarez is better than Ronaldo. And I do think Suarez is better than Ronaldo as pure striker.
 
GhastlyHun said:
After a match where Ronaldo played less than a fifth of time, in which he didn't do anything memorable... righto.
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He was very important in sending them to the final. Without Ronaldo, Portugal doesn't pass the group stage, let alone reach the finals.

I rate Messi higher too, but we cannot act like losing 4 finals in international football (3 of them when he was already mentioned as a greatest of all time candidate) doesn't matter. That with arguably the most talented international team in the world. Years from now, that will be counted heavily against him in GOAT debates. He should have done better at least in one of those finals. He was quite anonymous in three, and lost the pen in the fourth.
 
Revan said:
He was very important in sending them to the final. Without Ronaldo, Portugal doesn't pass the group stage, let alone reach the finals.

I rate Messi higher too, but we cannot act like losing 4 finals in international football (3 of them when he was already mentioned as a greatest of all time candidate) doesn't matter. That with arguably the most talented international team in the world. Years from now, that will be counted heavily against him in GOAT debates. He should have done better at least in one of those finals. He was quite anonymous in three, and lost the pen in the fourth.
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At no point, Argentina had the most talented international team in the world. They have always had a weirdly balanced team which only looked good on paper.
 
kouroux said:
At no point, Argentina had the most talented international team in the world. They have always had a weirdly balanced team which only looked good on paper.
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There hasn't been any team in the last 2-3 years that have had as much superstars as Argies. Heck, top players like Dybala and Tevez can't even make their bench, and them would have started for pretty much every other team in the world.

I really think that Messi should have won at least one of the last two Copas. He was bad in the final of World Cup, but Germans were very good and a more balanced team. Chile is good, but not great. Put Maradona instead of Messi in that team, and Argies win 9 times out of 10. Messi lost both, as he did a world cup and an another Copa (though there him being not that good in the final is comparable to Ronaldo in 2004).
 
Revan said:
There hasn't been any team in the last 2-3 years that have had as much superstars as Argies. Heck, top players like Dybala and Tevez can't even make their bench, and them would have started for pretty much every other team in the world.

I really think that Messi should have won at least one of the last two Copas. He was bad in the final of World Cup, but Germans were very good and a more balanced team. Chile is good, but not great. Put Maradona instead of Messi in that team, and Argies win 9 times out of 10. Messi lost both, as he did a world cup and an another Copa (though there him being not that good in the final is comparable to Ronaldo in 2004).
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When you look at a team, you cannot just focus on their attackers. Argentina has an ok/underwhelming midfield, a shit backline and an average keeper.
 
kouroux said:
When you look at a team, you cannot just focus on their attackers. Argentina has an ok/underwhelming midfield, a shit backline and an average keeper.
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Their defense in last Copa was Otamendi (who had just been the best CB in Spain), Mascherano (a very good Cb in Barca), Zabaleta (very good RB) and Rojo (okay LB).

Not great, but still good.

In International competitions, it is always like that, teams are unbalanced. Germany had to start a 70 years old Miroslav Klose as their striker, cause they didn't have anyone else.
 
Revan said:
Their defense in last Copa was Otamendi (who had just been the best CB in Spain), Mascherano (a very good Cb in Barca), Zabaleta (very good RB) and Rojo (okay LB).

Not great, but still good.

In International competitions, it is always like that, teams are unbalanced. Germany had to start a 70 years old Miroslav Klose as their striker, cause they didn't have anyone else.
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Are you sure that it was the last copa ?
 
Revan said:
Their defense in last Copa was Otamendi (who had just been the best CB in Spain), Mascherano (a very good Cb in Barca), Zabaleta (very good RB) and Rojo (okay LB).

Not great, but still good.

In International competitions, it is always like that, teams are unbalanced. Germany had to start a 70 years old Miroslav Klose as their striker, cause they didn't have anyone else.
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Very soon, Pepe will be elevated to Maldini level by the Messi fans, the likes of Fonte and William Carvalho should be playing for Madrid or Bayern.
 
I don't think you can compare these players. They are simply different. The way Messi plays will always be more exciting - though a younger Ronaldo was exciting. Messi has guile while Ronaldo has strength. If you had either in your team, you'd be happy. So I think they are equally as good. If I go by preference I would go with Messi but at these levels they are hard to separate and I wouldn't want too. However, Messi is at the perfect weight for his style of play. Ronaldos too bulky
 
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