Or maybe Messi had the better coach and team for his streak, just like Ronaldo had the better coach and team for his
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
- Status
I mean sure, people may not care much about the 2nd place in football as much as say the Olympic, but does that change the fact that reaching a final is a bigger achievement than not reaching the final?
Some people find it very hard to comprehend this. Messi had one of his best individual seasons in 18/19 and almost dragged his team to a treble. But they didn't make it. Because the team wasn't up for it.
Exactly and conversely didnt Ronaldo score 48 league goals one season and not win it?
or did I make that up?Exactly and conversely didnt Ronaldo score 48 league goals one season and not win it?
I don't know, but Barcelona didn't win the league either in the year Messi broke Müllers record for most goals in a season and calendar year.
Man I don’t think we will ever see anyone as good as these two ever again.
What kind of argument is this?! It feels like you're manufacturing an argument that has nothing to do with the subject. I don't think you'll find anyone that would disagree with the fact that finishing higher is better. It's almost as though you realised that this is a weird argument to make for Messi so are shifting the ground to try to make it seem that people are arguing that finishing lower is better, because that's an argument that (if anyone was making it) you'd win.
Eh? The argument is simply he has been the the wc final, hence a bigger achievement than someone who hasn’t. How is it manufactured?
Since you are in agreement that finishing higher is better, I don’t know what you are disagreeing with me here?
See above. But you keep saying 'is it not better to finish second than third?' like anybody is arguing otherwise. You're creating an argument that isn't there.
Maybe by name but Wales and Poland were excellent teams that tournament. The former dismantled a star-studded Belgium in the QFs and the latter finished on joint points with Germany in the groups. They were both tough teams for that single tournament and I would say with confidence that the 2016 version of both would beat this year’s Colombia.
This is very evidently the case, more particularly for all of Messi’s early successes. I mean he won 2 League titles and a CL without even playing up to 40% of the games. While every trophy Ronaldo won he was the topscorer and undisputed top dog for his team.
Yeah that sounds very unlikely.
Even the "heir apparents" in Mbappe and Haaland are nowhere near the same level as Messi and Ronaldo
The issue with comparing their trophy count is that Messi won top honours when he wasn’t the key player. I can’t think of a single trophy Ronaldo won where he wasn’t his team’s star man. You may argue Euros because he didn’t play in the final but he was still responsible for 6 of his team’s 9 goals that tournament.
No it’s not. Every team pretty much has someone that can score close range goals. Not every team has someone that can pass like Pogba or dribble like George Best.
I'd say that Messi was more often than not a better player than Ronaldo in La liga whilst they were both there. Personally I don't think for instance that Barcelona had stronger team when they won La Liga in 2017-2018. I think once Bale, Ronaldo, Benzema, Kroos, Modric, Casemiro etc had been assembled, I don't think there was much between them and Barcelona had wank managers after Guardiola. I'd say that when Barcelona lost Neymar and panic bought players who became flops Real Madrid became the better team without doubt.
Those tournament MVP and playmaker awards are as important as the goal records I’d say. But then on top of that you have the golden boots and Ballon D’Ors.
I don’t recall people talking about goal records in GOAT discussions in the past. When it was Pele v Maradona, the fact that Pele scored a lot more goals was not the decisive factor because everyone knew that football was about more than that.
Ronaldo’s goal records are a function of his longevity (excellent approach to his condition) and good fortune in avoiding serious injury. This has allowed him to play many more games than all the other people that are high on those lists. Still great achievements but they must be contextualised.
Last edited:
Is this intended as a reply to me or the other user?
Let's be honest, Pele and Maradona fanboys were far less annoying and anal than their Ronaldo and Messi counterparts.
Exactly and conversely didnt Ronaldo score 48 league goals one season and not win it?
You are correct.
They've both not won leagues in seasons where they had their best goalscoring records, and won leagues in seasons in which their goalscoring record wasn't up to their typical standard.
It's possible other individual metrics are more correlated to their league wins. I don't know, I haven't checked.
If Ronaldo can add to his tally of trophies while back at United, he should stretch his lead over Messi. Messi has chosen the easy route after leaving Barca. Coming back to the prem is a much harder task at 36 if you are trying only to protect your numbers.
It's not that complicated. You can check this argument against the individual metrics that judge player performances (goals, assists, more elaborate metrics), and if the correlation between those metrics and "winning the league" is not great then it means that argument isn't actually true.
There has to be a point after which "drawbacks" simply become "reasons to not use this argument."
There was no internet for people to say that Maradona was ‘clear’ in the 80s.
The other guy, I’ve edited the post
Messi didn't have that many options tbh (well he did but it would have significantly reduce his wages and then some). I do agree, Ronaldo playing in the PL is much better than Messi in the ligue 1. Overall I think Ronaldo's number for the season will be better than Messi's while playing in England
That would be the sensible conclusion yes.
Again, he doesn’t have a lead over Messi to begin with.
It's all pretty subjective. The Ronaldo fans consider his CL record(both goals and trophies) + his journeyman's career as proof of him being greater while Messi fans will point to his overall greater ability on the ball, vision and his Ballon D'or record which will most likely extend to 7 as him being greater/better.
He does in my eyes. I've always been more of a fan of Ronaldo than Messi, no disrespect to Messi. Ronaldo is a ruthless points machine.
Even more reason Ronaldo is going to be respected more in the final stages of his career. More difficult league and relative pay cut at the same time.
Yeah I get that. But CL trophies is the only significant metric where he’s ahead. Even with CL goals, he’s played more games. In everything else notable he’s behind, despite being older. At the very least it’s even. There’s no way CR is ahead.
By virtue of helping his team advance further along the competition more often.
You can't hold the record for most CL goal, multiple records for "most goals in a CL season", and most trophies, while playing less games than your rivals. Not unless you're incredibly inconsistent.
Last edited:
He won’t be. Because Messi is still putting in world class all round performances on a regular basis.
Messi has joined the top team in an easier league. Semi retirement. while Ronaldo has joined a team aiming for the top in arguably the toughest and by far the most competitive league in world football.
Yep this right here is a fundamental misunderstanding of Ronaldo and what he's good at.
Goal scoring is the most values asset of any player and it is priced as such in transfers. This just circles back to my earlier point that for average fans Messi seems to pass the "eye" test because the skill he's good at is more mainstream and easily understood.
Putting in a world class performance in the French league is meaningless. Champions league, different story..
Well that is likely to happen.
Even if he does have great performances every week, no-one will value it very highly due to the level of the league and opposition he will be facing, which has also applied to the likes of Mbappe and Neymar since they’ve been playing there. Only if he can maintain those performances in the CL will he be praised.
The thing is, I’ve watched football for so many years, and I just honestly can’t relate to reaching the final and then losing it, is an achievement at all. Do you feel we’ve achieved something last season reaching Europa league final? I just can’t.
He's played more CL games due to helping his team progress and Messi's early injury problems. Unless Ronaldo gets a career ending injury this season I doubt that record will ever be caught.
The EL is fairly insignificant for a big club. I still think we rate Fergie for reaching 3 CL finals in 4 years however we just got beaten by a better team. I would say Germany was a better team than Argentina as well. Obviously there isn't much glory in getting silver, but it's still a better achievement than getting knocked out early or going out in a embaressing fashion. Messi got a player of the tournament award as well, even though I personally don't think he deservered. He had a good tournament but hardly iconic.
- Status