Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Zehner]

Yep this right here is a fundamental misunderstanding of Ronaldo and what he's good at.

Goal scoring is the most values asset of any player and it is priced as such in transfers. This just circles back to my earlier point that for average fans Messi seems to pass the "eye" test because the skill he's good at is more mainstream and easily understood.

Nonsense. Goal scoring isn't the most valuable asset and isn't prices as such. The most expansive transfers in football history:

1. Neymar
2. Mbappe
3. Coutinho
4. Dembele
5. Joao Felix
6. Antoine Griezmann
7. Grealish
8. Cristiano Ronaldo
9. Romelu Lukaku
10. Eden Hazard

Transfer fee records:

2017: Neymar
2016: Pogba
2013: Bale
2009: Cristiano
2009: Kaka
2001: Zidane
2000: Figo


Neymar, Coutinho, Dembele, Felix, Griezmann, Grealish, Pogba, Zidane, Kaka, Figo and Hazard weren't stand out goal scorers but stand out dribblers, playmakers, etc. And Cristiano and Bale wouldn't have cost as much if they only scored goals but weren't prolific dribblers, too.

 

[NasirTimothy]

He's played more CL games due to helping his team progress and Messi's early injury problems. Unless Ronaldo gets a career ending injury this season I doubt that record will ever be caught.

Or maybe because he’s younger

 

[MrEleson]

It’s also worth noting Ronaldo didn’t score in his first 25 games in the CL. He was definitely a slow starter in that competition (probably mostly due to his position and role on the pitch; with him playing as a touchline RW in his first 4-5 years).

At Madrid he has more goals than games in the CL.

 

[Volumiza]

Well that is likely to happen.

And if PSG get knocked out early? The difference is now, Ronaldo still plays for a team that gets a lot of global coverage. He will still create major headlines in both the league and CL. Who really cares about PSG outside the CL other than PSG fans?

 

[NasirTimothy]

Nonsense. Goal scoring isn't the most valuable asset and isn't prices as such. The most expansive transfers in football history:

1. Neymar
2. Mbappe
3. Coutinho
4. Dembele
5. Joao Felix
6. Antoine Griezmann
7. Grealish
8. Cristiano Ronaldo
9. Romelu Lukaku
10. Eden Hazard

Transfer fee records:

2017: Neymar
2016: Pogba
2013: Bale
2009: Cristiano
2009: Kaka
2001: Zidane
2000: Figo


Neymar, Coutinho, Dembele, Felix, Griezmann, Grealish, Pogba, Zidane, Kaka, Figo and Hazard weren't stand out goal scorers but stand out dribblers, playmakers, etc. And Cristiano and Bale wouldn't have cost as much if they only scored goals but weren't prolific dribblers, too.

Maradona also broke the transfer record twice.

 

[NasirTimothy]

And if PSG get knocked out early? The difference is now, Ronaldo still plays for a team that gets a lot of global coverage. He will still create major headlines in both the league and CL. Who really cares about PSG outside the CL other than PSG fans?

PSG will win back to back CL titles.

 

[Zehner]

And if PSG get knocked out early? The difference is now, Ronaldo still plays for a team that gets a lot of global coverage. He will still create major headlines in both the league and CL. Who really cares about PSG outside the CL other than PSG fans?

Me. Call me crazy but I like watching Neymar, Mbappe and Di Maria. One could argue that Ligue 1 now has three of the five best players in world football while the EPL has maybe one, depending on whether you see de Bruyne, Cristiano, van Dijk or Salah among them.

 

[Volumiza]

Me. Call me crazy but I like watching Neymar, Mbappe and Di Maria. One could argue that Ligue 1 now has three of the five best players in world football while the EPL has maybe one, depending on whether you see de Bruyne, Cristiano, van Dijk or Salah among them.

I'm the same mate, if I can catch a PSG match then I'll watch it ... but ... I can't help but feel like these players are slightly wasted in that league.

I dunno, the prem now has all of those you mention and loads of other players that are real top, exciting talents across a really wide spread of teams. Regional bias aside, there are few competitions in sport quite like the prem.

 

[Volumiza]

PSG will win back to back CL titles.

They have a good chance. I was just making the point that Ronaldo can still make big world headlines in the league and CL. Messi needs the CL to reach the kind of audience that United have globally.

Hey, I'm not disrespecting Messi at all. Incredible player and whether he's the GOAT or Ronaldo is isn't based on my view. I just have a great deal of respect for Ronaldo coming back to the prem at his age, knowing full well how hard it will be for him to continue racking up his numbers over the next 2 years. That is not the easy option. That's the brave option.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I'm the same mate, if I can catch a PSG match then I'll watch it ... but ... I can't help but feel like these players are slightly wasted in that league.

I dunno, the prem now has all of those you mention and loads of other players that are real top, exciting talents across a really wide spread of teams. Regional bias aside, there are few competitions in sport quite like the prem.

fair points

 

[NasirTimothy]

They have a good chance. I was just making the point that Ronaldo can still make big world headlines in the league and CL. Messi needs the CL to reach the kind of audience that United have globally.

Hey, I'm not disrespecting Messi at all. Incredible player and whether he's the GOAT or Ronaldo is isn't based on my view. I just have a great deal of respect for Ronaldo coming back to the prem at his age, knowing full well how hard it will be for him to continue racking up his numbers over the next 2 years. That is not the easy option. That's the brave option.

Fair points all

 

[MrEleson]

PSG will win back to back CL titles.

How can you say so with such certainty?

 

[Volumiza]

fair points

Fair points all

Fair is my middle name

 

[RedRonaldo]

Those tournament MVP and playmaker awards are as important as the goal records I’d say. But then on top of that you have the golden boots and Ballon D’Ors.

I don’t recall people talking about goal records in GOAT discussions in the past. When it was Pele v Maradona, the fact that Pele scored a lot more goals was not the decisive factor because everyone knew that football was about more than that.

Ronaldo’s goal records are a function of his longevity (excellent approach to his condition) and good fortune in avoiding serious injury. This has allowed him to play many more games than all the other people that are high on those lists. Still great achievements but they must be contextualised.

I just can’t agree with this. I’ve been hearing people talk about Pele record alot of times since when I was a kid, then in the past, I’ve heard about Di Stefano being one of GOAT, and holding the CL record for many years. And then later when Raul breaking it it becomes big headline back in the time. Then of course later Messi and Record keep breaking it are making a lot of headlines too. I don’t know where have you been all these years, but its on news from time to time, and it’s always been hot topic whenever someone’s about to break it.

And to be honest and no offence, it’s indeed the very first time I heard there’s a thing called playmaker award. Perhaps it’s same thing as best midfielder, or best defender award they given it out as part of award ceremony? Anyway, don’t think it’s major awards, never heard of it to be honest.

As for tournament MVP award, I don’t know, it’s kind of “newer” awards in terms of prestigious of tournament history. For example, in Euro, Golden boot is awarded since 1960, but the official player of tournament is awarded since 1996. In WC, Golden ball starts at 1982, but Golden boot starts at 1930. And guess who win Golden Ball in WC 2010? Diego Forlan. I just don’t find it very prestigious and significance. I only trust Ballon D’or to be very honest. And yes, Messi is the best in Ballon D’or history.

 

[Zehner]

I'm the same mate, if I can catch a PSG match then I'll watch it ... but ... I can't help but feel like these players are slightly wasted in that league.

I dunno, the prem now has all of those you mention and loads of other players that are real top, exciting talents across a really wide spread of teams. Regional bias aside, there are few competitions in sport quite like the prem.

Yes, the EPL is more competitive. But I don't see where the difference is between Messi and Ronaldo playing in La Liga and playing in Ligue 1, Clasicos aside. Or Lewandowski playing in the Bundesliga or Cristiano in Serie A. Most leagues have become one or two horse races over the years. That was never an issue in the past, why should it be now?

Thing is, if Messi now plays with Neymar and Mbappe and still remains the standout player of his squad at 34, that is hugely impressive.

 

[Volumiza]

Yes, the EPL is more competitive. But I don't see where the difference is between Messi and Ronaldo playing in La Liga and playing in Ligue 1, Clasicos aside. Or Lewandowski playing in the Bundesliga or Cristiano in Serie A. Most leagues have become one or two horse races over the years. That was never an issue in the past, why should it be now?

Because before, they were in the same league slugging it out with each other at the two biggest clubs. It was a level playing field. Now, one has chosen an easier road than the other.

 

[Zehner]

I just can’t agree with this. I’ve been hearing people talk about Pele record alot of times since when I was a kid, then in the past, I’ve heard about Di Stefano being one of GOAT, and holding the CL record for many years. And then later when Raul breaking it it becomes big headline back in the time. Then of course later Messi and Record keep breaking it are making a lot of headlines too. I don’t know where have you been all these years, but its on news from time to time, and it’s always been hot topic whenever someone’s about to break it.

And to be honest and no offence, it’s indeed the very first time I heard there’s a thing called playmaker award. Perhaps it’s same thing as best midfielder, or best defender award they given it out as part of award ceremony? Anyway, don’t think it’s major awards, never heard of it to be honest.

As for tournament MVP award, I don’t know, it’s kind of “newer” awards in terms of prestigious of tournament history. For example, in Euro, Golden boot is awarded since 1960, but the official player of tournament is awarded since 1996. In WC, Golden ball starts at 1982, but Golden boot starts at 1930. And guess who win Golden Ball in WC 2010? Diego Forlan. I just don’t find it very prestigious and significance.

Usually when Ronaldo or Messi broke a record it was the first time I heard of said record. I'm German and didn't even know about the "famous" calendar year record by Gerd Müller. The only record I knew was the >1.000 goals scored by Pelé. Players aren't remembered for their goal records but for their playing style. Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Zico, Platini, Best, Ronaldinho, Zidane, etc.

 

[RedRonaldo]

The EL is fairly insignificant for a big club. I still think we rate Fergie for reaching 3 CL finals in 4 years however we just got beaten by a better team. I would say Germany was a better team than Argentina as well. Obviously there isn't much glory in getting silver, but it's still a better achievement than getting knocked out early or going out in a embaressing fashion. Messi got a player of the tournament award as well, even though I personally don't think he deservered. He had a good tournament but hardly iconic.

I just never celebrate being finalist or semi-finalists. Yes it’s better than being knocked out in early rounds I guess, if that’s what you insist on saying. But I just feel very embarrassed to glorify or even mentioning something like this. Maybe for lower league side going into FA cup final would justify all the glorification, or traditional weaker nation from Asia or Africa getting into WC semi for the very first time in their history would justify that too. But if we are talking about top level football, it’s embarrassing to even suggesting that.

 

[Gehrman]

PSG will win back to back CL titles.

I doubt it. Poch hasn't won anything as a manager and didn't even win the league last year. Mpabbe will be gone next season, and I doubt a 35 year old Messi, 36 year old Ramos, semi-crocked Neymar and 34 year old Di Maria will lead them to a CL next season. They've got a fairly good chance this season, but I feel any of the strong teams have a equally good chance to knock them out. They've been hyped to win the CL for ages now with it always ending in tears.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I doubt it. Poch hasn't won anything as a manager and didn't even win the league last year. Mpabbe will be gone next season, and I doubt a 35 year old Messi, 36 year old Ramos, semi-crocked Neymar and 34 year old Di Maria will lead them to a CL next season. They've got a fairly good chance this season, but I feel any of the strong teams have a equally good chance to knock them out. They've been hyped to win the CL for ages now with it always ending in tears.

They’ll win this year and next year. Book it

 

[Gehrman]

I just never celebrate being finalist or semi-finalists. Yes it’s better than being knocked out in early rounds I guess, if that’s what you insist on saying. But I just feel very embarrassed to glorify something like this. Maybe for lower league side going into FA cup final would justify all the glorification, or traditional weaker nation from Asia getting into WC semi for the very first time in their history would justify that too. But if we are talking about top level football, it’s embarrassing to glorify that.

It's not glory, it's just still an objectively stronger finish. There was a reason we as united fans were so dissapointed when we were knocked out by Basel and Sevilla in the CL because we knew we should be doing better. When we lost 2 finals to Barcelona, you could argue about tactics and all but they were the better team all-around.

 

[Red Stone]

Messi's club career is over in my eyes as long as he stays at PSG. Joke club in a joke league, and every trophy they win will be even more hollow that the trophies City have won since they won the lottery. I don't even care if they win the Champions League.

I have felt the same about Neymar since he left Barca and would have felt the same about Ronaldo if he had gone there. PSG is everything that is wrong with football, especially after this summer.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Usually when Ronaldo or Messi broke a record it was the first time I heard of said record. I'm German and didn't even know about the "famous" calendar year record by Gerd Müller. The only record I knew was the >1.000 goals scored by Pelé. Players aren't remembered for their goal records but for their playing style. Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Zico, Platini, Best, Ronaldinho, Zidane, etc.

It’s just so normal because when no one is going to break it, there’s no value in reporting or discussing those. And to be very honest, when I was a kid I have no idea about Pele playing style at all, I only know his 1000+ goals and 3 WC, and everyone says he is GOAT in football. Same goes with Di Stefano, not a single idea about his playing style, but only heard he won 5 CL and was all time top scorer in CL.

 

[Zehner]

Because before, they were in the same league slugging it out with each other at the two biggest clubs. It was a level playing field. Now, one has chosen an easier road than the other.

The way I see it, both players were able to stat pad a lot because they played in the first era of super rich clubs that was characterized by super squads with a concentration of star players unseen before. Week in, week out they got to player teams several levels inferior to them. And that was the case for the best part of both player's careers. People are now talking about competitiveness but didn't when Ronaldo left Madrid for a team that had won 8 or 9 league titles in a row at the time of his arrival. Meanwhile, Messi would've most likely joined City if Barca had sorted things out earlier. That just comes across as changing the goal posts to make one player look better.

There is just so much flawed logic being thrown around. And the reason for it is that people bring up pointless arguments such as league trophies, goal records, etc without context. Watch them play and decide. I did and for me it is very clear.

 

[shamans]

PSG will win back to back CL titles.

What makes you think that ? Maybe Mbappe steps up but Messi hasnt been known to rally his team if we're being honest

 

[Zehner]

It’s just so normal because when no one is going to break it, there’s no value in reporting or discussing those. And to be very honest, when I was a kid I have no idea about Pele playing style at all, I only know his 1000+ goals and 3 WC, and everyone says he is GOAT in football. Same goes with Di Stefano, not a single idea about his playing style, but only heard he won 5 CL and was all time top scorer in CL.

So likewise you'll never hear about Ronaldo's or Messi's records again until somebody breaks them

In the end, football doesn't happen on paper. If you're interested in historic players, you'll make sure to watch footage of them.

 

[Gehrman]

Because before, they were in the same league slugging it out with each other at the two biggest clubs. It was a level playing field. Now, one has chosen an easier road than the other.

I don't doubt that Ronaldo would have been off to PSG in a heartbeat if they wanted him after he became disgruntled at Juventus. Still I love the fact that he came to us. Ronaldo has affinity for United. Messi doesn't have any ties to any club other than Barcelona really.

 

[Zehner]

What makes you think that ? Maybe Mbappe steps up but Messi hasnt been known to rally his team if we're being honest

What does that even mean?

 

[Gehrman]

What makes you think that ? Maybe Mbappe steps up but Messi hasnt been known to rally his team if we're being honest

All of this rallying the team bollocks in simply just bollocks. Messi has more often than not been the best Barcelona player on the pitch. If the defense has a mare there isn't much he can do about that tbh. As 1 player you have to do your job, you can't perform the job of the 10 other players on the pitch.

 

[Gehrman]

What does that even mean?

It means gesticulating a lot.

 

[NasirTimothy]

What makes you think that ? Maybe Mbappe steps up but Messi hasnt been known to rally his team if we're being honest

They have the best player in the world, the second best player in the world and Mbappe. Plus a lot of other good players. I think they’ll win again next season even when Mbappe goes.

 

[shamans]

They have the best player in the world, the second best player in the world and Mbappe. Plus a lot of other good players. I think they’ll win again next season even when Mbappe goes.

Mbappe second best I bet on your list Ronaldo is competing at 11th best with Lukaku so forgive me if I'm not keen on taking your expert analysis.

All of this rallying the team bollocks in simply just bollocks. Messi has more often than not been the best Barcelona player on the pitch. If the defense has a mare there isn't much he can do about that tbh. As 1 player you have to do your job, you can't perform the job of the 10 other players on the pitch.

I don't believe this and based no my observation it's one of the reasons I rate Ronaldo higher. Whenever Barcelona or Argentina is losing in a big game Messi just goes into this defeated sort of mode. I have given him the benefit of the doubt many times but in losing efforts especially the last 10 minutes of the game or so he is a polar opposite to Ronaldo.

This is my opinion. I can't "prove" it as fact with any stats but it's what I've seen so it's a judgement I've made but I know many will disagree and i know someone is gonna pick up some game where Messi helped the team comeback to prove me wrong but it's not going to change something I've observed so many times.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Mbappe second best I bet on your list Ronaldo is competing at 11th best with Lukaku so forgive me if I'm not keen on taking your expert analysis.

He’s not 11th best but he’s not better than Messi or Neymar. Not at this stage in his career.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I don't believe this and based no my observation it's one of the reasons I rate Ronaldo higher. Whenever Barcelona or Argentina is losing in a big game Messi just goes into this defeated sort of mode. I have given him the benefit of the doubt many times but in losing efforts especially the last 10 minutes of the game or so he is a polar opposite to Ronaldo.

This is my opinion. I can't "prove" it as fact with any stats but it's what I've seen so it's a judgement I've made but I know many will disagree and i know someone is gonna pick up some game where Messi helped the team comeback to prove me wrong but it's not going to change something I've observed so many times.

You can’t prove it because it’s not true. Messi has plenty of clutch moments in his career. That’s why he will probably end up with the most team trophies in history.

 

[NasirTimothy]

All of this rallying the team bollocks in simply just bollocks. Messi has more often than not been the best Barcelona player on the pitch. If the defense has a mare there isn't much he can do about that tbh. As 1 player you have to do your job, you can't perform the job of the 10 other players on the pitch.

It is bollocks. Seen many games where Ronaldo’s team were losing and he did nothing. The difference is that when Ronaldo’s team is losing, he shouts and waves his arms around a lot so people think he’s doing more.

 

[MrEleson]

They’ll win this year and next year. Book it

Lend me your crystal ball

 

[NasirTimothy]

Lend me your crystal ball

Nope

 

[MrEleson]

Usually when Ronaldo or Messi broke a record it was the first time I heard of said record. I'm German and didn't even know about the "famous" calendar year record by Gerd Müller. The only record I knew was the >1.000 goals scored by Pelé. Players aren't remembered for their goal records but for their playing style. Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Zico, Platini, Best, Ronaldinho, Zidane, etc.

Yeah that was the case in the past when players’ stats weren’t so easily accessible on the internet with smart phones or via pages on Twitter like opta, squawka etc. Even a metric such as the “assist” wasn’t really a glorified thing 15 years ago. When Henry was setting the premier league record back then for most assists in a league season, I doubt many people were even aware of it. Most things in the game was assessed empirically - i.e. by watching the players play. We’re in a new era now where I believe the focus for future generations will be a combination of both records/numbers and their qualitative play. The rise of Messi & Ronaldo with their extraordinary numbers has revolutionised how the game is viewed.

 

[Zehner]

It means gesticulating a lot.

Ah okay. I thought it's this mentalist thing when Ronaldo Uri Gellers a ball over the crossbar from the other end of the pitch with his superior mindset.

Yeah that was the case in the past when players’ stats weren’t so easily accessible on the internet with smart phones or via pages on Twitter like opta, squawka etc. Even a metric such as the “assist” wasn’t really a glorified thing 15 years ago. When Henry was setting the premier league record back then for most assists in a league season, I doubt many people were even aware of it. Most things in the game was assessed empirically - i.e. by watching the players play. We’re in a new era now where I believe the focus for future generations will be a combination of both records/numbers and their qualitative play. The rise of Messi & Ronaldo with their extraordinary numbers has revolutionised how the game is viewed.

I don't think so. 99% of talk is about goals anyway and that stat has been around for ages. The emphasis on goals scored primarily comes from media outlets that (successfully) tried to tell you a narrative about a rivalry.

If we're talking about more advanced stats like dribbles past, key passes, xG, xGC etc. it is a different story. But I think they're still too nerdy currently. Anyway, I believe Ronaldo prefers that fewer people are paying attention to them

 

[Sayros]

It's not that complicated. You can check this argument against the individual metrics that judge player performances (goals, assists, more elaborate metrics), and if the correlation between those metrics and "winning the league" is not great then it means that argument isn't actually true.

There has to be a point after which "drawbacks" simply become "reasons to not use this argument."

Hmm, nah. I got enough work as it is. I think this is silly, if you don't think league form over 9 seasons playing the same opponents with the two best teams in Spain isn't the best way to compare their impact, then that's fine with me. I just disagree and that's all there is to it. You can do all the research you want to prove me wrong, I'd love to read it, but I'm not doing homework to prove an opinion on a Messi vs CR7 forum.

Besides, it wouldn't prove anything. I'm sure you put CR7 or Messi in another league with a great team (like they had in Spain) then they would most likely win that league through the numbers they put out during their Liga days, but given that they both play in the same league for 9 years, one of them is bound of lose it (and outside of the odd Atletico appearance, either one was the runner up to the other). It makes your metrics suggestion a bit useless at that point, no? It's not just about the individual player performances, it's about those performances along with the team around them, and they were easily the two best teams in Spain. So once again, my suggestion is that's about as good of a comparison you can make on the impact of two players than comparing CL's or International career.