Shearer has 68G 26A vs those teams
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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Nope you heard him, Messi has more. Sorry.
Sorry I meant for goals/assists per game ratio.
Shearer played far more games against them and the majority of them 68 goals and 26 assists from Shearer didn't come against top 6 teams.
Shearer scored his goals and got his assists when Spurs and Man City were not top 6 sides. Especially as the best finish City had in the PL until Shearers retirement was 8th, 9th twice and then 14th and below. Spurs finished 7th once and were finishing around 10th to 14th most seasons. Chelsea finished no higher than 11th in their first 4 PL seasons as well.
If you're working it out this way though - with Shearer - you can put Leeds in who he absolutely terrorised. Goals alone he scored 20 in 19 games...
Be interesting outside of Messi/Ronaldo who has scored most CL goals versus English opposition, maybe someone like Zlatan or Inzaghi?
it's Muller I believe.
I don't really compare the two,
Ronaldo has proved himself in the top league in England, in Spain and in Italy... he's been consistant with goals and assists.
Messi has only played in the top Spanish league, we don't know how he would cope with the physicality of the English and Italian leagues.
We've seen big players from Spain come to England and be a flop.
I do think Barcelona have over the years had better players all across the park than Real Madrid so the service Messi was getting was from world class players, where as you can't exactly say all the Madrid players were world class to provide chances for Ronaldo.
Ronaldo is slightly more selfish, which is fine when you can actually and consistently back it up with goals and assists, I saw this trait in Gareth Bale but he unfortunately he lacked consistency and wasted to many chances.
If they had both played in Italy and England as well as Spain then I would judge but even if Messi was to move now at his age I don't think it would be fair to judge his impact on other leagues.
One thing I will say is that Ronaldo seems to treat his body like a god, I can see him still being fit when he's 40 if he still has enthusiasm for football, I'm not sure Messi is like that and think he'll probably play until he's 36, I also think as soon as he starts to deteriorate he will just retire rather than being like some other older players who stick around and are happy to play a substitute role.
Ronaldo has proved himself in the top league in England, in Spain and in Italy... he's been consistant with goals and assists.
Messi has only played in the top Spanish league, we don't know how he would cope with the physicality of the English and Italian leagues.
We've seen big players from Spain come to England and be a flop.
I do think Barcelona have over the years had better players all across the park than Real Madrid so the service Messi was getting was from world class players, where as you can't exactly say all the Madrid players were world class to provide chances for Ronaldo.
Ronaldo is slightly more selfish, which is fine when you can actually and consistently back it up with goals and assists, I saw this trait in Gareth Bale but he unfortunately he lacked consistency and wasted to many chances.
If they had both played in Italy and England as well as Spain then I would judge but even if Messi was to move now at his age I don't think it would be fair to judge his impact on other leagues.
One thing I will say is that Ronaldo seems to treat his body like a god, I can see him still being fit when he's 40 if he still has enthusiasm for football, I'm not sure Messi is like that and think he'll probably play until he's 36, I also think as soon as he starts to deteriorate he will just retire rather than being like some other older players who stick around and are happy to play a substitute role.
David Silva who's physically similar to Messi has been one of the best players in the 2010s and Messi is twice the player. Saying stuff like he couldn't do in on a wet cold night at Stoke is one of the stupidest things ever - probably coined by CR fans
For me it is what stands out the most from Maradona to pele - one had a tougher league career. One arguably played more when international football was the best maybe and it's why people have respect for pele but don't call him as a goat as easily as they once did.
I agree with this completely.
Italian players never made it in the UK. Some La Liga Players did and some didn't. Some PL players who bossed it completely flopped in La Liga like Hazard. It maybe a mentality thing to as why it just hasn't happened yet.
No one is saying that Messi comes to England and becomes a pure flop - its more that I don't see the reason why Messi comes to the PL and plays to the level Messi does in the La Liga for a whole season. His La Liga Performances have had a huge impact on how he is viewed as a player and that's a third due to the type/tactic of competition he faced, the team and tactic he played with and finally his own personal footballing ability. 2 out of 3 of those 3 things will be changed if he had decided to move once in his career.
Anyway as you said - I've stopped comparing the two because one is the most technical gifted player and one is the most variably successful.
The fact he consistently destroys the leagues best teams. This logic is baffling "Messi can only do it vs City, Spurs, United, Liverpool and Chelsea, he'd fail vs Newcastle and West Brom"
Pedro looked really good as a starter for Barcelona during pep's management but looked a level down when playing for Chelsea. Scored goals vs English teams sure - but the Pedro that played for Barcelona was more valued than the Pedro that played for Chelsea and would have continued to be that way if he stuck his career at Barcelona.
It's mad how much of a footballing DNA Barcelona has, no matter who the manager is you never really saw park the bus football did you? You saw that at United, Real Madrid and Juventus at least a few games a season.
Messi would do the same that he does in La Liga everywhere in the world. Thinking otherwise is know nothing about football. In fact, Messi's style of play it's been the same for all his life. Just go and see how he played when he had like 5 years old. We are talking about one if not the most gifted player of all time.
Pedro had declined as a player and was no longer a starter for Barca when he moved to Chelsea. Not the same thing at all.
So pedro at his prime would be just as good for Chelsea as he was for Barcelona in your eyes?
I don’t think people doubt whether he can do it or not. It just theres no guarantee he can adapt equally as effective to all kinds of environment under different setups. Even Maradona has a difficult tenure during his time in Spain, there no guarantee even any GOAT can shine equally in all kinds of circumstance.
Everyone knows Barca is a perfect fit for Messi so naturally it’s more of a comfort zone for him to stay in Barca to play in a system he is familiar with, and with the whole team build around him. I don’t think it would affect his legacy though as he has been hugely successful throughout his career, but still can’t say for sure he could do it for a team playing different approach and setup under different environment, not that it matters much to me since he has been so far ahead of most others anyway.
This.
He was still playing for Barcelona when he did those things,
The question is usually put as, how would he adapt not only to another league but also to playing in a team which isn't as good/doesn't play his favoured style of football.
What? Take a look at your logic. This entire argument rests on the fact that Ronaldo went to Real Madrid and then Juventus after United. It would be like if Messi went to City. Do you think Messi could succeed under Pep at City? Or does City not count even though this argument rests on doing it in the PL, which would surely count at City, a PL side.
It also rests on the logic that as others have said a player like Maradona went to Barcelona and didn't set the world alight to the standards expected. So many players fail to do this and you see it season after season - yet we are expected to believe Messi will purely by nothing?
This stupid argument again.
This season especially, it is a bigger challenge for Messi to “stay in his comfortzone” in the car crash of a barcelona team than move to 1 team leagues/richest teams PSG, City, Bayern or Juventus like CR7 did.
If Messi moved to Bayern or Juventus 3 seasons ago, he would have many more league titles than he has won with Barcelona over the last 3 years. He can even sit on the bench for every single match and still outperform his last 3 years barcelona trophy count
This season especially, it is a bigger challenge for Messi to “stay in his comfortzone” in the car crash of a barcelona team than move to 1 team leagues/richest teams PSG, City, Bayern or Juventus like CR7 did.
If Messi moved to Bayern or Juventus 3 seasons ago, he would have many more league titles than he has won with Barcelona over the last 3 years. He can even sit on the bench for every single match and still outperform his last 3 years barcelona trophy count
A typical non-reply reply from someone that has no answer.
It is simple, if you are a player, where is the hardest to win a trophy from now onwards? Bayern, PSG, Juventus, Man City or Barcelona.
Which is the broke team that has the worst manager of all 5 clubs?
Lets look at the last 3 years and which of these teams won the least leagues titles?
But I do not expect someone like you to understand because you know, anything to belittle messi!
love how the "physicality" of other leagues compared to La Liga is still a thing. you would have thought La Liga clubs weren't wiping the floor with English clubs regularly in European competitions.
also, is this even a debate anymore?
also, is this even a debate anymore?
Maradonna didnt really not perform at Barcelona. He got struck by illness and a severe injury and then he got into a mass brawl at the end of his 2nd season but his performances while fit were actually good.
That's why im laughing at you. The most similar player to Messi of all time has failed in different leagues to play up to the same level yet I'm supposed to believe Messi can do it because I ride him in multiple positions.
Messi has not played under a single manager that has parked the bus at Barcelona. It could be argued the most defensive manager he played with was the counter attacking manager of Luis Enrique which wasnt defensive at all - just a mix of playing both.
Imagine Messi playing for Mourinho, Ancelotti, even SAF who didn't use inverted wingers early on.
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“A lot of things went on with Maradona. We even changed the training timetable so he could sleep in in the morning,” revealed the man who signed the Argentine.
Maradona’s house was said to resemble a hotel where friends and acquaintances came to party at all times. In unauthorized biographies about his life, it was revealed that this bad company he kept in Barcelona introduced him to a habit that would come to control his life: cocaine. Still, the drugs would not come to define his tournaments with Barcelona as they would later, and the problem was much less understood at the time.
Thats why you deserved to be laughed at even more. Remind me again how his Argentina team played to reach the WC2014 final or Copa2021.
Plus because someone hasn’t done something, you disregarded everything he has done?
Ok lets apply your logic then. CR7 can only win big trophies(league titles and cls) in club level when he is playing for the richest club in any league, and only under very reputable managers.
Put him under crap tiers such as Pirlo, Moyes, Valverde and Setien level managers, he will win nothing as shown in the last season, even with Juventus. He needs 1) a very rich club or THE TEAM in a 1 team league plus 2)a tier 1 coach to succeed. Give him a tier 2 pellegrini, he did not even succeed in Real Madrid.
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And I can do the same thing as you 'messi can only play for team with a possesion footballing DNA or a team that was already the best team in La liga like post rijkaard and Ronaldinho and have been riding on the success of Barcelona as a team. I mean the guy couldn't win a La Liga without C Ronaldo at Real Madrid and lost it to Athletico Madrid soon as Suarez swapped clubs. Barcelona are looking less successful as a club the further they go from the xavi and iniesta periods in comparison - riding the benefits of playing with them whilst also adding his own amazing technical ability to something that was already fantastic as a core basis from his debut years.
Anyway, I'm not changing your mind and your not changing mine so just leave it. Great players have struggled to adapt to leagues in the modern era and the past era because such things require a balance of mindset, adapting and technical abilities.
Some just value the technical ability of a player and that's fine if that's your thing. As i have said - Messi is the most technical player I've seen with my eyes playing for the most technical gifted club in the most technical played league - but I value the achievements of C Ronaldo more.
Anyway, just enjoy football and take care.
That first paragraph was your stance all along, I am just using your logic. And I mean, he won league titles with Tito and Valverde, who arent exactly very reputable.
Personally I found it regrettable for Messi not to move from Barcelona this season, to a City or PSG, for he will have a far easier time in those places to win trophies and improve on his performances/stats given how bad Barcelona is these days.
But ok, agree to disagree then
I mean look at the team ability of Barcelona in 30 seconds
The ability as a team to high press an instant counter, the absolute one touch double skill of iniesta to pass it between his legs and take it past 2 players instantly before softly loft passing it past another 3 arsenal players with ease. Messi then lobs it and volleys it past the goalkeeper.
He played with that all his life
Everybody focuses on Messi's wonderful header that's like double his size but what about xavi ping point, perfectly placed perfectly placed cross cum pass that takes out one of the best if not the best defender during that year or two? Ferdinand is done before Messi even gets to position or his head on the ball - I don't even know where the other defender is.
I mean look at the team ability of Barcelona in 30 seconds
The ability as a team to high press an instant counter, the absolute one touch double skill of iniesta to pass it between his legs and take it past 2 players instantly before softly loft passing it past another 3 arsenal players with ease. Messi then lobs it and volleys it past the goalkeeper.
He played with that all his life
Interesting that you suddenly value passing and build up ability so much. They don't even score that much, you really shouldn't rate them. Apparently, passing, dribbling and chance creation are only important when rating the players Messi played, but not when actually comparing the two players in question themselves.
But don't worry, you can always go back to criticize Messi for taking medication that prevented him from being disabled, that little cheat
Interesting that you suddenly value passing and build up ability so much. They don't even score that much, you really shouldn't rate them. Apparently, passing, dribbling and chance creation are only important when rating the players Messi played, but not when actually comparing the two players in question themselves.
But don't worry, you can always go back to criticize Messi for taking medication that prevented him from being disabled, that little cheat
What do you mean? I say Messi is the most technically gifted player I seen but he always got to play with the most technical players aswell whilst also playing in a league that held that style in comparisons to serie A and PL.
Neymar vs Bale
Suarez vs Benzema
Ronaldinho vs Rooney vs Isco
Xavi & Iniesta vs Scholes & Carrick or modric & kroos
Busquets vs Hargreaves or Carrick or Casemiro
Pique and puyol vs Rio and Vidic vs Ramos and Varane
Alves vs Wes brown or Albiol
David Villa or even Thierry henry vs Giggs
Alba vs Marcelo vs Evra or coentrao
Etoo, Mascherano, rakitic vs whoever
For example I'd probably rate iniesta's or maybe even Ronaldinho's technical ability better than C Ronaldo- but that's not all I value my players by.it's like a guy valuing a women just by her looks.
Anyway I'm obviously just seeing things and just enjoying something I shouldn't. Need a break.
I cant really see why Messi wouldnt cut it in the PL when other la liga imports have absolutely bossed it in the prem. And Messi is far better than any of them.
Not actually true because Pele played at a time when Brazilian club football was among the best in the world and also played in very challenging continental club matches (e.g. in the Copa Libertadores). In the forerunner to the club World Cup (which Pele also won), South American teams beat European teams more often than the reverse during the 60s.
But this is the point, moving to City or PSG is actually easier, not a ‘challenge’. The challenge is still trying to win with this Barcelona team.
I agree that staying with this Barcelona team and try to win things is a challenge, as compared to going to PSG or City.
However, I still find it regrettable as he could have easily took the easy way out to win more trophies and also silence some of his illogical critics at the same time.
Messi can't do it in different leagues is the most idiotic argument against him. Players like Aguero, Zola, David Silva etc have been extremely successful despite similar stature and unquestionably inferior ability compared to Messi.
Valverde is as defensive a manager as they come, Enrique played direct football much like Premier league teams and was tactically naive, Koeman, Setien and the Argentine bloke (can't remember his name) are/were as clueless as they come. Messi has had to play under all these guys and yet has still been successful often completely outperforming everyone else in the league including Ronaldo.
As far a physicality is concerned, Copa America is very physical, far more than the Euros and yet he has made it to 4 finals and won once. Player of the tournament twice.
I sense saltiness.
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