Fair enough but you are ignoring the point I made in the first place. Messi has put up ridiculous numbers vs the best English teams and people think he needs to prove himself as if he couldn't do it against the fodder PL teams.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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I dont often hear prolific footballers or managers, especially neutrals, say that Ronaldo is the best of all time, yet Messi was being compared to Pele and maradonna when he was 24. I imagine if he wasnt playing in the same era as Messi he probably would have been talked about in that that way more often.
I sense making up something because it utimately didn't happen.
Falcao, Soldado, Di Maria's inability to settle at United, Robinho, Cavani, Morata, Forlan, Morientes, Deco, Suker etc.
Plenty players failed from La Liga to PL.
Plenty great players failed when moving leagues - Cannavaro, shevchenko, kaka, hazard, zlatan Ibrahimovic, schweinsteiger, robben, sneidjer, jerome boateng at city vs Bayern, Gnabrybat Arsenak vs Bayern etc.
The fact he didn't move is a solid reason - especial since he played for one of the most technical teams that were built towards his style in his league almost from his debut days that had Eto"o Ronaldinho, xavi and iniesta - the success has been dribbling down bit by bit as the quality of player has not been so legendary.
It was a perfect time to move these days but I was not surprised that he didn't do it and signed a nice contract instead.
And again - don't think that i am saying Messi will be a complete flop in a different league playing for a different club - I just don't believe he will be able to play the same standards we have got to see from the Messi that has played for Barcelona all his life, La Liga all his life, amazing goals vs getafe or getting to react off the abilities of iniesta, xavi and ronaldinho etc all his life.
This still goes on a daily basis? Extraordinary.
Scientists and psychologists should study this thread.
Scientists and psychologists should study this thread.
Not ignoring, I don't think anyone has an issue with your stats - it was that you made a false statement which people then easily debunked.
Of course Messi has great stats from his CL games, he is one of the GOATS & plays in a historically dominant, attacking team. That part isn't up for debate, it's a fact.
They should weigh in with their opinion about who is the best as well.
They are already on here, sucked in by the endless debate and lure of finding some hidden stat yet to be uncovered by either players' acolytes, the promise of redcaf immortality is a hard prize to resist.
it’s not a solid reason at all. Loyalty to a club used to be praised, now we criticise it. So long as you are at a big club in a good league, there’s no need to move.
C'mon man. Messi has torn us apart enough for this to be a moot point.
And again there is a difference between him tearing us up when playing for Barcelona with all those players playing technical gifted possesion based football and tearing us apart when playing for Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Real Madrid or Juventus.
I mean look at that goal that I posted where iniesta completely tore up Arsenal a new hole in 21 seconds by just shifting the ball from his left foot to his right. Absolutely insanity.
Crespo Kaka and Shevchenko during the last peak few years of serie A vs Liverpool in the CL final and beating them vs how they played when moving leagues?
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There's also plenty Premier League players that flop in La Liga and other leagues. It's a nothing argument.
He did win everything in Italy though, both collectively and individually. The only trophy he didn’t win Juventus is CL. Messi hasn’t won one either in past 6 years at Barca, despite being by far the most paid player in the world.
Even last season he didn’t the league (neither did Messi), he still managed to win double domestic cup trophy with Juventus, and finished as Serie A top scorer and Euro top scorer. So winning nothing is incorrect description (2 domestic cups and 2 top scorer awards).
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This is why C Ronaldo is valued by many.
C Ronaldo is success and records wherever he goes.
Obviously Guardiola made him better, which is demonstrated by the fact that he declined as soon as Guardiola left. The same can't be said for Messi.
This is why I say players can look absolute bosses when playing for Barcelona. During their peak it was arguably to some the best manager or the best managed team of all time. Or it was playing for a team that had players like Xavi and Iniesta, David Villa, Pedro, Puyol,Pique who went on to dominate internationally by playing an almost carbon copy of Barcelona club football. Bit by bit as those players or managers left and retired the success as a club also started to wane.
I mean look at Neymar- many instantly put him as the 3rd best player in the world when playing for Barcelona - he left and the words are not heard as much as anymore.
Maybe because they were replacing those players with clowns like Paulinho, Vermaelen, Braithwaite et al? Barcelona are the worst run club in football.
Who doesn't think Neymar is still top 3 in the world?
He's still doing it now in a shit Barca team, to imagine he couldn't reproduce what he does with current Barca at current City, Liverpool, United or Chelsea is plain ridiculous. Messi doesn't live the lifestyle Maradona did and he's played a ton of different systems at Barca and for Argentina and been the best player in each and every one. Nothing is 100% certain of course but I'd put my house on Messi being just as good vs fecking Newcastle or WBA as he is vs Granada and Levante.
Nobody hears about Neymar anymore because he plays in a league no one cares about and tends to get injured around his sisters birthday.
Messi would obviously be successful wherever he goes.
However the question isn't necessarily about success. It's more about how much would he be impacted by a move, and would he look the same as his otherworldly Barcelona self?
We'll never know, but judging by his past Argentine performances (which is the only other team he's played in), it's safe to say there would have been a drop off outside of Barcelona's environment.
However the question isn't necessarily about success. It's more about how much would he be impacted by a move, and would he look the same as his otherworldly Barcelona self?
We'll never know, but judging by his past Argentine performances (which is the only other team he's played in), it's safe to say there would have been a drop off outside of Barcelona's environment.
You don't think he'd be better at Chelsea, United, City or Liverpool than he is playing with fecking Griezmann, Dembele, Braithwaite and co... People act like he's still playing with prime Xavi and Iniesta. The team he currently plays in is barely a top 7 PL team if you remove Leo (same can be said for Ronnie at Juve currently mind)
When Forlan was given a run of games he was excellent. Unfortunately because of Ruud, he was always on the bench.
By the time Kaka moved to Madrid, he was already on a steep decline which is why Milan sold him.
Hazards time at Madrid has been marred by injuries.
Zlatan was successful wherever he played, by the time he came to United, he was already way past it and it was a very unsuccessful united side. The Barcelona thing had to do with his relationship with Guardiola.
Etc etc
But take into account that Messi is a far far superior footballer to all of them.
The reason why he hasn't moved has nothing to do with fear of lack of success or of decline in playing level but rather it's Barcelona who do not at any cost want to let him go. Messi has almost moved back in 2014 and last year.
Now, I believe that the reason you bring up all this is because you are a Ronaldo fan. Truth is, Ronaldo played for some of the biggest teams in the countries where he has played. Man utd continued being successful even after he left, Madrid won the league even after he left, and Juve were already successful even before he joined. Its not like he played for slouches and inspired them to success. Plus his playing style means that so long as there is quality behind him, he will score and ultimately this is what Ronaldo fans like to quote in favour of his greatness which I do not doubt.
I also have no doubt in my mind that Messi would have succeeded as much if he played for any other team. His ability means that invariably wherever he goes, the team would adapt to him rather than him having to adapt to the team. And he would immeasurably improve the team. What he brings to the table is imo unparalleled in modern football.
I mean its fine you can convince that something that hasn't happened will 100% percent happen but ultimately its not been proved.
I'm not a Ronaldo fan because he is an ex United player or that I think he is the most technical.
I think he is the most successful player I have ever seen and ultimately he wanted to prove it to some degree and achieved it.
That is all.
I'm done here because I'm bored of this now.
As ive mentioned before Messi not moving clubs is hardly a stick to beat him with. Why would he move from his dream club in sunny spanish speaking Barcelona in his own and his clubs prime to move to that racist, fascist hellhole of a country called England with god awfull weather? Its only after the quality of the squad has declined so much that it would make sense for him to move for glory, but then he's gotten older and declined as well despite being favourite for the 2021 ballon'dor.
The problem with Argentina has been a lack of talent in midfield and unferperforming forwards meaning he has to be both a playmaker and a goalscorer. Sometimes that is too much even for him. And often times, if you mark out Messi, you win.
In addition, and that is the issue with international football in general, is a lack of chemistry due to players playing with each other only once in a while. It always the most organised team or the team which plays as one that wins the wc or Euro rather than the team with the best players. As can be seen in this year's Euros.
Mate you’re never going to be done. You’re too invested to let things go now, you’ve probably debated it for over a decade. This is your life now.
Brazil doesn't have national league system until around 1970. Hence majority of Pele’s club career were playing in regional league format in Brazil, which means he might have face some of the very strong top class opponents from time to time, but he would also constantly facing some of the very poor opponents equivalent to lower division standard of today.
Again not saying he couldn't, but there is still clear advantage for him in today's Barca team in terms of suiting his playing style, as they are always playing under same philosophy/system, with the team entirely build around him. For example, even they have been relatively "poor" this season, they still have average 62.4% possession in the league, with 93% in short pass, which is still by far the highest. In comparison, league champions Atletico only has avg 51.8% possession and 86% in short pass. Real has 57.7% possession and 87% short pass. Imagine if he plays under a team with more long balls, and counter attack approach, or more defensive approach, he might not be able to produce same high level of football as much as he did at Barca, which is very natural. This could even be applied to other best attacking players in the past like Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc.
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I am waiting for Zehner response on this, he would definitely claim Neymar is still the 2nd or 3rd best player in the world.
I cant believe anyone is making a big deal of this. It ignores any personal failings Neymar might have(and his injuries) and when he is on form he is actually one of the best in the world. Also following the logic that Barca magically improves players it doesnt follow that Coutinho, Griezmann and Dembele have been massive flops.
When Pogba is on form he is also one of the best in the world, just saying.
If Neymar wasnt playing in the 5th strongest league in the world and not getting injured in the crucial stages of the season he probably would be rated higher. And outside Barca and PSG he on average has a higher G+A average for his NT than Messi and Ronaldo despite playing(mostly) in a fairly average Brazil side compared to the sides of the past.
The overall standard across the country was strong which is proven by the fact that Brazil won 3 out of four world cups during that period with every single player on those teams playing their club football in Brazil. That wouldn’t have been possible if the domestic state and National leagues/cups were not of a very high standard.
Well let's say, for whatever reasons (injures, partying, spending time with his sister), he hasn't done enough over the past 3 seasons at PSG to justify his price tag. He does have fair share of good games, but that's not enough for supposedly top 3 player in the world with world record fee, and in only top 5 league.
Let's compare his stats for his club and country over past 3 years:
Neymar 2018-2021 (26-29 yrs old)
Club: 59 goals in 86 games
Country: 15 goals in 28 games
Overall: 74 goals in 114 games
Let's compare to the other top 3 players in the world playing in similar position over same period of time:
Messi 2018-2021 (31-34 yrs old)
Club: 120 goals in 141 games
Country: 15 goals in 28 games
Overall: 135 goals in 169 games
Ronaldo 2018-2021 (33-36 yrs old)
Club: 101 goals in 133 games
Country: 30 goals in 32 games
Overall: 131 goals in 165 games
Mbappe 2018-2021 (19-22 yrs old)
Club: 111 goals in 127 games
Country: 16 goals in 38 games
Overall: 127 goals in 165 games
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His transfer fee was over the top. He could never justify it. Overall he has 87 goals and 52 assists in 116 games for psg. With 20 goals and 12 assists in 28 games in the CL. Add to that his dribbling, chance creation and entertainment value which is what makes people watch football and he's not half bad. Personally I think he's a world class player but I wouldn't have him as the 2nd best or 3rd best every year.
yes, Neymar is worst case top 4 in the world
They have a vaguely similar philosophy nothing more. Its like comparing Solksjaers United to Fergusons in that they both like to counter attack. Anyone that says Pep, Enrique and Valverde share the same philosophy just doesn't watch much football. It really is that simple. Wasn't he literally named player of the tournament playing for an Argentina team who were happy without the ball?
Madness the 4th best player in the world loses the title to Rennes or some budget team isn't it 
Meanwhile you see CL winners and world cup winners or euro winners in the same year no where near
Meanwhile you see CL winners and world cup winners or euro winners in the same year no where near
Sure its not half bad, but expectation was very high on him remember, he hasn't quite match the kind of expectation we have on the 2nd or 3rd most talented/best player in the world during his supposedly peak years, in quite extensive period too. There's still quite a large gap between him in his peak years, with ageing Messi and Ronaldo, and young and inexperienced Mbappe, in terms of end products for extensive period of time, which is quite a shame. If you never rate him as top 3 player in the world, then of course there would no complain on him.
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Sure, but thats the whole point isn't it, even if he still did great for Argentina, I just don't think he was as good as compared to his Barca performances. He has far higher goal/assist ratio for Barca than for his country. His game is more based on possession attacking football with many short pass around, allowing him to play a free playmaking role with zero defensive duties. Don't get me wrong, in my mind he would still be considered as a GOAT in almost any strong/decent side he would play for, as he has the kind of football talent which is out of this world, and has the kind of consistency/longevity very very few could match throughout the history. But Barca would still be one of the best place for him which suit his game the best, even today.
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