Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Maluco]

Again lads, they still beat the teams that beat those teams. That’s how tournament football works!

Copa América with Argentina isn’t a patch on Euro win with a team like Portugal. It doesn’t matter who beat who on the way. You always have to beat the teams that won!

Even if that were the measuring stick (which it’s not), Argentina didn’t beat ANY great teams to win the Copa! That Brazil side with Renan Lodi, Everton and our own Fred are shocking!

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Again lads, they still beat the teams that beat those teams. That’s how tournament football works!

Copa América with Argentina isn’t a patch on Euro win with a team like Portugal. It doesn’t matter who beat who on the way. You always have to beat the teams that won!

Even if that were the measuring stick (which it’s not), Argentina didn’t beat ANY great teams to win the Copa! That Brazil side with Renan Lodi, Everton and our own Fred are shocking!

They beat Brazil in the Maracanã.

That is a far more difficult accomplishment than anything Portugal did in the Euros.

It's not even close.

 

[Daysleeper]

Again lads, they still beat the teams that beat those teams. That’s how tournament football works!

Copa América with Argentina isn’t a patch on Euro win with a team like Portugal. It doesn’t matter who beat who on the way. You always have to beat the teams that won!

Even if that were the measuring stick (which it’s not), Argentina didn’t beat ANY great teams to win the Copa! That Brazil side with Renan Lodi, Everton and our own Fred are shocking!

no, this is a dumb take, it’s all about matchups and Portugal had the resists of any NT winning of the last 25 years .

 

[Daysleeper]

They beat Brazil in the Maracanã.

That is a far more difficult accomplishment than anything Portugal did in the Euros.

It's not even close.

exactly

 

[TheLiverBird]

It’s Messi

I could have saved 561 pages of gibberish and straw clutching if I’d have just posted this when it started

so sorry guys

 

[Maluco]

They beat Brazil in the Maracanã.

That is a far more difficult accomplishment than anything Portugal did in the Euros.

It's not even close.

Don’t agree. That Brazil team are not good at all. It’s the worst Brazil team I can remember in my lifetime, and I live here! That one game isn’t better than Portugal winning the Euros. France are a much, much better team than Brazil.

It was Messi’s 6th crack at a Copa! They almost had to beat Brazil and win one eventually. It would have been a black mark on his record if they hadn’t. They are consistently the 1st or 2nd best team on the continent in terms of quality, for every single Copa.

You can’t say the same for Ronaldo and Portugal. There was no expectation there with the teams that were involved. It’s not a dumb take. Winning a tournament that’s happens every 4 years with the amount of quality teams competing in it is a far bigger achievement than winning a Copa when you have gotten a stab at it 4 times in the last 6 years alone!

This is what I mean by silly argument. I am a Ronaldo fan, who fully accepts that Messi is a better footballer, but you have his supporters willing to argue ridiculous things just to have every possible argument aligning to their viewpoint.

Portugals Euro win is a far bigger achievement than winning a Copa with Argentina. The Euros has far better teams involved, a wider selection of top teams, is held less regularly and they even beat a better team in the final!

 

[Rojow]

No matter what you say. Argentina beat Brazil in the Maracaná. And Brazil were the favourites for the tournament. By far.

It can't be better than this except, maybe, winning the World Cup in Brazil. Something that nearly happened.

 

[Daysleeper]

Don’t agree. That Brazil team are not good at all. It’s the worst Brazil team I can remember in my lifetime, and I live here! That one game isn’t better than Portugal winning the Euros. France are a much, much better team than Brazil.

It was Messi’s 6th crack at a Copa! They almost had to beat Brazil and win one eventually. It would have been a black mark on his record if they hadn’t. They are consistently the 1st or 2nd best team on the continent in terms of quality, for every single Copa.

You can’t say the same for Ronaldo and Portugal. There was no expectation there with the teams that were involved. It’s not a dumb take. Winning a tournament that’s happens every 4 years with the amount of quality teams competing in it is a far bigger achievement than winning a Copa when you have gotten a stab at it 4 times in the last 6 years alone!

This is what I mean by silly argument. I am a Ronaldo fan, who fully accepts that Messi is a better footballer, but you have his supporters willing to argue ridiculous things just to have every possible argument aligning to their viewpoint.

Portugals Euro win is a far bigger achievement than winning a Copa with Argentina. The Euros has far better teams involved, a wider selection of top teams, is held less regularly and they even beat a better team in the final!

euro have better teams involved but when you avoid all fo then you are WAY off the mark. Jammiest euro of the past 25 years.

And this Brazil team are better than you give them credit for

 

[Maluco]

euro have better teams involved but when you avoid all fo then you are WAY off the mark. Jammiest euro of the past 25 years.

And this Brazil team are better than you give them credit for

We will just agree to disagree. Once again, you still have to beat those teams who have taken out the best teams and they played a harder final than Argentina anyway, in my opinion. Even if you think it’s equal enough (which I don’t think it is), Argentina have had far more attempts at it and are the 1st/2nd best team in the competition every time!

The great Brazil teams of the past, like the 2002 World Cup winners would have taken Thiago Silva, Casemiro, and that’s about that, from the current Brazil team. Not even Neymar would have made that front 3. There were players in that first eleven that wouldn’t even have seen the squad in years past.

It’s a low point in Brazilian football and you can feel it here every time they play. The buzz is gone and the defeat was met with apathy.

Messi deserves a win, but to equate it with Portugal’s Euro win doesn’t make sense.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

We will just agree to disagree. Once again, you still have to beat those teams who have taken out the best teams and they played a harder final than Argentina anyway, in my opinion. Even if you think it’s equal enough (which I don’t think it is), Argentina have had far more attempts at it and are the 1st/2nd best team in the competition every time!

The great Brazil teams of the past, like the 2002 World Cup winners would have taken Thiago Silva, Casemiro, and that’s about that, from the current Brazil team. Not even Neymar would have made that front 3. There were players in that first eleven that wouldn’t even have seen the squad in years past.

It’s a low point in Brazilian football and you can feel it here every time they play. The buzz is gone and the defeat was met with apathy.

Messi deserves a win, but to equate it with Portugal’s Euro win doesn’t make sense.

It doesn't make sense because Messi and Argentina had a tougher run.

Messi has gotten to 5 finals with Argentina, 1 of them being the WC final and has now won an international trophy.

Ronaldo has gotten to 2 final, 1 of which he didn't help them win because he went off injured anyway.

From them points, Messi has had the much superior international career. I know he didn't win all of them but he has gone much further in tournaments than Ronaldo.

 

[Pocho]

Who kicked Portugal out of the 2018 WC? Uruguay. Well, Argentina defeated them too.

 

[hellhunter]

Who kicked Portugal out of the 2018 WC? Uruguay. Well, Argentina defeated them too.

Who kicked out Argentina in 2018 WC? France. Well, Portugal defeated them too.

 

[Maluco]

It doesn't make sense because Messi and Argentina had a tougher run.

Messi has gotten to 5 finals with Argentina, 1 of them being the WC final and has now won an international trophy.

Ronaldo has gotten to 2 final, 1 of which he didn't help them win because he went off injured anyway.

From them points, Messi has had the much superior international career. I know he didn't win all of them but he has gone much further in tournaments than Ronaldo.

I am not even questioning international careers mate, even though Messi has played with far better footballers than Ronaldo at an international level. That wasn’t my debate and am happy enough with the opinion that Messi has been better internationally. That’s an acceptable opinion to have.

I was just saying that Portugal winning the Euros is a much more impressive feat than Argentina winning a Copa America. For a whole host of reasons!

I don’t think it’s even open for discussion, and can only believe it is because people on this thread don’t seem to be able to have objective discussions about anything involving these two players.

 

[MrEleson]

They beat Brazil in the Maracanã.

That is a far more difficult accomplishment than anything Portugal did in the Euros.

It's not even close.

Nonsense. France 2016 are better than current Brazil.

 

[mshnsh]

Ronaldo fans Before copa 2021 'Messi hasn't won anything with Argentina so he can't be considered the greatest'

Messi wins Copa America.

Ronaldo fans ' Winning copa America doesn't mean anything. It is a useless competition. South American teams are crap'

The definition of goalposts moved.

You guys are ignoring 2 facts:

1.While Portugal did win the Euros, they played mostly against minnows, they had tones of luck through out and they won ONLY 1 game in 90 minutes throughout. Had the rules not been changed, they would not even have made it out of the group stages.

2. Ronaldo himself was not good at the tournament. He was neither the top scorer nor the player of the tournament. His contribution was 2 goals and a nice assist vs Hungary, 1 goal and a jammy assist vs Wales.

It was more the team and luck for Portugal, Ronaldo played his part without being particularly great.

Messi on the other hand had an excellent tournament this year, topping pretty much all the stats. His contribution was far more than anything Ronaldo has ever produced in any tournament for Portugal and he was rightfully voted player of the tournament.

I'm not in anyway questioning Ronaldo's greatness ( I think he is one of the greatest ever) but downplaying Messi's achievements to big up Ronaldo is just nonsense.

 

[mshnsh]

I am not even questioning international careers mate, even though Messi has played with far better footballers than Ronaldo at an international level. That wasn’t my debate and am happy enough with the opinion that Messi has been better internationally. That’s an acceptable opinion to have.

I was just saying that Portugal winning the Euros is a much more impressive feat than Argentina winning a Copa America. For a whole host of reasons!

I don’t think it’s even open for discussion, and can only believe it is because people on this thread don’t seem to be able to have objective discussions about anything involving these two players.

You are taking it out of context. Compare the contribution of the individual players to the teams tournament wins and also consider the teams Portugal played in euro 2016.

You are just a salty Ronaldo fanboy unwilling to accept Messi's accomplishment since you, like many other Ronaldo fanboys, have used Messi's lack of success with Argentina as stick to beat Messi with. And now you have nothing.

It's not open for discussion because Messi had an outstanding tournament while Ronaldo scored 3 penalties and a tap in on his way out in the round of 16 While Messi was player of the tournament and top scorer at Copa America.

 

[Maluco]

You are taking it out of context. Compare the contribution of the individual players to the teams tournament wins and also consider the teams Portugal played in euro 2016.

You are just a salty Ronaldo fanboy unwilling to accept Messi's accomplishment since you, like many other Ronaldo fanboys, have used Messi's lack of success with Argentina as stick to beat Messi with. And now you have nothing.

It's not open for discussion because Messi had an outstanding tournament while Ronaldo scored 3 penalties and a tap in on his way out in the round of 16 While Messi was player of the tournament and top scorer at Copa America.

Oh dear, what’s all this about? Read all my posts on the subject. I am not a Ronaldo fanboy. I have said several times that Messi is better. I have said nothing about their contribution or given a judgement on who had a better international career (I personally think it was Messi, just about)

Literally, my only argument is that a Portugal Euro win is far more impressive than an Argentina Copa America win. Arguing otherwise is just proof that some people can’t be objective in this thread. It doesn’t matter which teams eventually got through in the Euros! It’s a more competitive tournament with a larger number of quality teams involved (of which Portugal are 6th/7th at best). It has a higher standard of football and it’s only held every four years!

You guys need to have better reading comprehension and leave your biases at the door. Into attack mode, and in doing so, completely proving my point.

I didn’t say anything about what you have said here so not sure who you are arguing with.

 

[Swoobs]

Who kicked out Argentina in 2018 WC? France. Well, Portugal defeated them too.

With GOAT cheerleader CR7 on the sidelines. Congratz

 

[Swoobs]

Oh dear, what’s all this about? Read all my posts on the subject. I am not a Ronaldo fanboy. I have said several times that Messi is better. I have said nothing about their contribution or given a judgement on who had a better international career (I personally think it was Messi, just about)

Literally, my only argument is that a Portugal Euro win is far more impressive than an Argentina Copa America win. Arguing otherwise is just proof that some people can’t be objective in this thread. It doesn’t matter which teams eventually got through in the Euros! It’s a more competitive tournament with a larger number of quality teams involved (of which Portugal are 6th/7th at best). It has a higher standard of football and it’s only held every four years!

You guys need to have better reading comprehension and leave your biases at the door. Into attack mode, and in doing so, completely proving my point.

I didn’t say anything about what you have said here so not sure who you are arguing with.

You are right in saying that it is indeed more difficult in winning a Euro in general. Just look at Italy 2021 route > Belgium, Spain and England on the way to winning. Even England had to face Germany and Italy had they won it. Both finished top of their groups as well.

However, looking at Portugal’s 2016 run, they had finished 3rd in a group consisting of themselves, Iceland, Austria and Hungary. They did not win any games against those 3 opponents.
They then played Poland, Croatia and Wales in the knockout stages, and only won 1 game in 90mins. Finally they met the only good opponent in France, which credit to them they beat with CR7 being the GOAT cheerleader.

Am I supposed to be impressed by this run?
Well lets just say I am more impressed by Portugal’s run than CR7’s run, since they at least beat France. But overall, is this that high quality Euro run that you talked about?

 

[mshnsh]

Oh dear, what’s all this about? Read all my posts on the subject. I am not a Ronaldo fanboy. I have said several times that Messi is better. I have said nothing about their contribution or given a judgement on who had a better international career (I personally think it was Messi, just about)

Literally, my only argument is that a Portugal Euro win is far more impressive than an Argentina Copa America win. Arguing otherwise is just proof that some people can’t be objective in this thread. It doesn’t matter which teams eventually got through in the Euros! It’s a more competitive tournament with a larger number of quality teams involved (of which Portugal are 6th/7th at best). It has a higher standard of football and it’s only held every four years!

You guys need to have better reading comprehension and leave your biases at the door. Into attack mode, and in doing so, completely proving my point.

I didn’t say anything about what you have said here so not sure who you are arguing with.

The problem with you is you are taking it out of context. Simple as. The nature of Portugals win was as jammy as they come. Had they won it the way Spain did in 2008/2012 or even Italy this year, I would have agreed. Or atleast if Ronaldo himself had produced a brilliant tournament individually resulting in the Euro win (regardless of how the rest of the team played ), I would have also have agreed with you. But of course non of these happened.

Other than that, you along with other Ronaldo fanboys on this forum have lost your whip and are now moving goalposts to downplay Messi's achievement. He produced a brilliant individual tournament that eventually led to Argentinas first major trophy since 1993.

 

[Swoobs]

The problem with you is you are taking it out of context. Simple as. The nature of Portugals win was as jammy as they come. Had they won it the way Spain did in 2008/2012 or even Italy this year, I would have agreed. Or atleast if Ronaldo himself had produced a brilliant tournament individually resulting in the Euro win (regardless of how the rest of the team played ), I would have also have agreed with you. But of course non of these happened.

Other than that, you along with other Ronaldo fanboys on this forum have lost your whip and are now moving goalposts to downplay Messi's achievement. He produced a brilliant individual tournament that eventually led to Argentinas first major trophy since 1993.

When you see CR7 50cents army saying Valverde, Enrique, Setien, Tito and Tata are in the same level as Mourinho, Ancelotti and Allegri, you know they have lost the argument. Beyond ridiculous

 

[Pickle85]

With GOAT cheerleader CR7 on the sidelines. Congratz

Grow up mate.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Charisteas is the goat, he won the Euro's with Greece. Beat that.

 

[Swoobs]

Grow up mate.

Thats the best you can come back with? Heed your own advice then

 

[mshnsh]

The problem with you is you are taking it out of context. Simple as. The nature of Portugals win was as jammy as they come. Had they won it the way Spain did in 2008/2012 or even Italy this year, I would have agreed. Or atleast if Ronaldo himself had produced a brilliant tournament individually resulting in the Euro win (regardless of how the rest of the team played ), I would have also have agreed with you. But of course non of these happened.

Other than that, you along with other Ronaldo fanboys on this forum have lost your whip and are now moving goalposts to downplay Messi's achievement. He produced a brilliant individual tournament that eventually led to Argentinas first major trophy since 1993.

PS that is not to say that I don't rate Ronaldo, I really do and I agree that he is one of the all time greats (top5 of all time).

 

[Zehner]

We will just agree to disagree. Once again, you still have to beat those teams who have taken out the best teams and they played a harder final than Argentina anyway, in my opinion. Even if you think it’s equal enough (which I don’t think it is), Argentina have had far more attempts at it and are the 1st/2nd best team in the competition every time!

The great Brazil teams of the past, like the 2002 World Cup winners would have taken Thiago Silva, Casemiro, and that’s about that, from the current Brazil team. Not even Neymar would have made that front 3. There were players in that first eleven that wouldn’t even have seen the squad in years past.

It’s a low point in Brazilian football and you can feel it here every time they play. The buzz is gone and the defeat was met with apathy.

Messi deserves a win, but to equate it with Portugal’s Euro win doesn’t make sense.

Mate, Neymar is their record goal scorer and he delivers every time he's on the pitch for Brazil. Probably the second best player on the planet. And you don't need to compare them to Brazilian teams of the best but to the teams of the present and the aren't much worse like for like than France (if at all, in the end they have Neymar) and significantly better than Argentina (which has very weak spots).

 

[kc7]

In Euro 2016 elimination rounds, France, England, Spain, Italy, Germany were all in the other bracket. There is not a single team in Portugal's bracket that won a Euro before.

 

[Pocho]

Who kicked out Argentina in 2018 WC? France. Well, Portugal defeated them too.

Not Ronaldo. He was waving the towel.

 

[Maluco]

Mate, Neymar is their record goal scorer and he delivers every time he's on the pitch for Brazil. Probably the second best player on the planet. And you don't need to compare them to Brazilian teams of the best but to the teams of the present and the aren't much worse like for like than France (if at all, in the end they have Neymar) and significantly better than Argentina (which has very weak spots).

Of course Neymar is an excellent player!

But Renan Lodi, Danilo, Fred, Lucas Paqueta, Éverton and Richarlison all started the final and wouldn’t make Frances squad! That is 6 of their starting eleven. They are not on the same level as the top European sides anymore. It’s a good win, but it’s not a great win in 2021.

It’s a silly debate because even if you argue that a Copa win is just as valuable quality-wise, they have played it 4 times over the last 6 years! It’s value has been tarnished. Argentina are the 1st/2nd best team every time and they have had far more attempts at it.

Again, I think Messi is better, deserves his win, and I actually think his international career is slightly better, but it’s a false equivalency to say that a Copa win is as valuable as a Euro win.

That was literally my only point. This thread is a toxic mess though with posters frothing at the mouth (not you obviously), so I will remind myself to stay clear!

 

[Zehner]

Of course Neymar is an excellent player!

But Renan Lodi, Danilo, Fred, Lucas Paqueta, Éverton and Richarlison all started the final and wouldn’t make Frances squad! That is 6 of their starting eleven. They are not on the same level as the top European sides anymore. It’s a good win, but it’s not a great win in 2021.

It’s a silly debate because even if you argue that a Copa win is just as valuable quality-wise, they have played it 4 times over the last 6 years! It’s value has been tarnished. Argentina are the 1st/2nd best team every time and they have had far more attempts at it.

Again, I think Messi is better, deserves his win, and I actually think his international career is slightly better, but it’s a false equivalency to say that a Copa win is as valuable as a Euro win.

That was literally my only point. This thread is a toxic mess though with posters frothing at the mouth (not you obviously), so I will remind myself to stay clear!

Frankly speaking, it doesn't matter to me if the Copa is as competitive as the Euro. My opinion on this topic would've remained the same regardless of this tournament. I just think you're downplaying Brazil a fair bit. Let's not forget you're comparing the squad with probably the currently best country in the world in terms of player quality. I'd say that there were few teams at the Euro if any that were better individually than Brazil. Needless to say anything about Neymar but Marquinhos, Thiago Silva, Fabinho, Casemiro, Firmino, Ederson and Alisson have all been integral parts of CL winning or at least CL final making squads. That's an amazing axis that few other nations can keep up with. And they're accompanied by some amazing talents (Vinicius, Militao) or at least classy players (Richarlison, Paqueta, Gabriel Jesus, Fred, Lodi). Sure, some players out of that axis didn't play but they wouldn't have been left out if those who played in their stead didn't perform.

And looking at the squads at this EC, it's not like their European counterparts have world class players in every position either. I'd probably put that Brazil team ahead of every European team individually except France and England. They're at least on par with Germany, Belgium, Portugal and Italy and definitely better than Spain. I mean, look at this possible formation:

-----------------------------------Ederson-------------------------------------- Alisson
--Danilo--------------Silva------------Marqinhos-------------Lodi--- Militao
---------------------------------Casemiro--------------------------------------
----------------------Fred----------------Fabinho---------------------------- Paqueta
---Vinicius----------------Firmino-------------------Neymar---------- Richarlison, Gabriel Jesus


And that's not even considering all the players that weren't nominated like Arthur, Fernandinho, Alex Sandro, Douglas Costa, Rodrygo, Coutinho, Telles, Lucas Moura or David Neres.

 

[Maluco]

Frankly speaking, it doesn't matter to me if the Copa is as competitive as the Euro. My opinion on this topic would've remained the same regardless of this tournament. I just think you're downplaying Brazil a fair bit. Let's not forget you're comparing the squad with probably the currently best country in the world in terms of player quality. I'd say that there were few teams at the Euro if any that were better individually than Brazil. Needless to say anything about Neymar but Marquinhos, Thiago Silva, Fabinho, Casemiro, Firmino, Ederson and Alisson have all been integral parts of CL winning or at least CL final making squads. That's an amazing axis that few other nations can keep up with. And they're accompanied by some amazing talents (Vinicius, Militao) or at least classy players (Richarlison, Paqueta, Gabriel Jesus, Fred, Lodi). Sure, some players out of that axis didn't play but they wouldn't have been left out if those who played in their stead didn't perform.

And looking at the squads at this EC, it's not like their European counterparts have world class players in every position either. I'd probably put that Brazil team ahead of every European team individually except France and England. They're at least on par with Germany, Belgium, Portugal and Italy and definitely better than Spain. I mean, look at this possible formation:

-----------------------------------Ederson-------------------------------------- Alisson
--Danilo--------------Silva------------Marqinhos-------------Lodi--- Militao
---------------------------------Casemiro--------------------------------------
----------------------Fred----------------Fabinho---------------------------- Paqueta
---Vinicius----------------Firmino-------------------Neymar---------- Richarlison, Gabriel Jesus


And that's not even considering all the players that weren't nominated like Arthur, Fernandinho, Alex Sandro, Douglas Costa, Rodrygo, Coutinho, Telles, Lucas Moura or David Neres.

That 8 player axis has two goalkeepers and Bobby Firmino. The top European nations left players of a similar standing at home. Brazil have maybe 5 top, top outfield players, one of which is 35 years old (Ramos, for example, was left at home because his squad was so competitive)

Their fullbacks are as average as they come, their midfield lacks creativity and Vinicius and Firmino are vastly overrated. Neither is a big goal threat.

Poor full backs, no creative force in midfield and a reliance on Neymar for goals.

Their line-up for the final had 4/5 players that wouldn’t have made France/Spain/England or even Italy/Germany squad.

None of those players that weren’t called up have had great seasons or would have made much of a difference. I also wouldn’t define Lodi, Fred, Gabriel Jesus and the like as “classy”. Merely functional.

I would put 5-6 European teams in front of this Brazil side in terms of quality of the first eleven and the squad. It’s an average side which has disillusioned their supporters here in Brazil.

It’s not the thread for this debate, and that’s possibly my fault for trying to make the Copa point in this thread. I, like you, don’t really care or think it matters much in the grand scheme of things. I am just sick of both sides arguing crazy things just to try to keep all the chips on their side of the argument.

I appreciate your debate though and the calm and reasoned way you made your points.

 

[Zehner]

That 8 player axis has two goalkeepers and Bobby Firmino. The top European nations left players of a similar standing at home. Brazil have maybe 5 top, top outfield players, one of which is 35 years old (Ramos, for example, was left at home because his squad was so competitive)

Their fullbacks are as average as they come, their midfield lacks creativity and Vinicius and Firmino are vastly overrated. Neither is a big goal threat.

Poor full backs, no creative force in midfield and a reliance on Neymar for goals.

Their line-up for the final had 4/5 players that wouldn’t have made France/Spain/England or even Italy/Germany squad.

None of those players that weren’t called up have had great seasons or would have made much of a difference. I also wouldn’t define Lodi, Fred, Gabriel Jesus and the like as “classy”. Merely functional.

I would put 5-6 European teams in front of this Brazil side in terms of quality of the first eleven and the squad. It’s an average side which has disillusioned their supporters here in Brazil.

It’s not the thread for this debate, and that’s possibly my fault for trying to make the Copa point in this thread. I, like you, don’t really care or think it matters much in the grand scheme of things. I am just sick of both sides arguing crazy things just to try to keep all the chips on their side of the argument.

I appreciate your debate though and the calm and reasoned way you made your points.

Likewise. Anyway, I think this thread makes so many rather silly excursions that I don't think this debate is derailing it any further. I believe your perception might be a bit affected by the fact that you're living in Brazil and the country usually has a very high standard. The grass is always greener elsewhere and many great European teams of the past are currently in a transition cycle.

Just take a look at Spain - Italy for instance. Spain's starting line up featured Ferran Torres and Oyarzabal. Olmo was probably their best attacking player, even by name. Morata was their number one striker throughout the tournament. And the Italy team with Barella, Di Lorenzo and Emerson wasn't exactly great either. I don't think those line ups were superior individually to what Brazil brought to the pitch. And you can make similar arguments for Germany, Belgium and Portugal as well if you apply the same standards that you're applying to Brazil.

 

[MrEleson]

And the Italy team with Barella, Di Lorenzo and Emerson wasn't exactly great either.

Barella is a great talent, what do you mean? And Emerson only played after the QF due to Spinazzola’s injury btw.

 

[Camara]

Not Ronaldo. He was waving the towel.

So better than Messi in the final this year, at least he didn't use a team slot for the entire game.

How is this year's Argentina run in Copa harder than Portugal in 2016?
Portugal's run was easier than usual for an Euro, but not easier in absolute terms comparing to this year's Copa.

BTW in the 2018 WC Argentina faced 3 teams in the easy portuguese run and was unable to beat any of them (1-1 draw vs Iceland, 3-0 defeat vs Croatia, 4-3 defeat vs France).

 

[Pocho]

So better than Messi in the final this year, at least he didn't use a team slot for the entire game.

How is this year's Argentina run in Copa harder than Portugal in 2016?
Portugal's run was easier than usual for an Euro, but not easier in absolute terms comparing to this year's Copa.

BTW in the 2018 WC Argentina faced 3 teams in the easy portuguese run and was unable to beat any of them (1-1 draw vs Iceland, 3-0 defeat vs Croatia, 4-3 defeat vs France).

Austria. Poland, Hungary, Wales. Bolivia would've reach that final.

 

[NasirTimothy]

In my point of view (which wont be agreed upon) Messi has improved after winning the Copa. Glad he has done something with the national team now. It's a shame that he is sticking to playing in the La Liga when it's looking at its poorest and staying loyal to Barcelona when this could have been finished as a thread in my eyes if he was able to pull off his numbers and achievements for someone else in a different environment and in a different league.

He doesn’t need to do that and it’s a nonsense argument, with respect. Pele was at Santos for most of his career, he’s still probably the greatest player of all time. If a guy wants to move around then fine, but it doesn’t make you better if you go to the biggest club in each country and score goals there.

 

[Daysleeper]

He doesn’t need to do that and it’s a nonsense argument, with respect. Pele was at Santos for most of his career, he’s still probably the greatest player of all time. If a guy wants to move around then fine, but it doesn’t make you better if you go to the biggest club in each country and score goals there.

Exactly

 

[NasirTimothy]

Exactly

Here’s what I don’t get about the ‘hasn’t done it in different leagues’ merchants.

Just try and think about it. Pele played most of his career for Santos. But there pretty much isn’t a single great player from anywhere in the world that was around at his time that he did not play against at least a handful of times, either in international club games or in international football itself. So the notion that he hasn’t proved himself is nonsense, because he pretty much destroyed whoever he came up against. Also, the Santos team that he started with in the 50s was totally different from the one he finished with in 1974. So the idea that he was reliant on a particular system or group of teammates is nonsense.

All the above applies for Messi but even more so, because all the top players in the world nowadays play in four of five leagues in Europe, and we have a champions league competition that pits all the top teams against eachother every single year. Messi has played against every top defender in the Italian, German and English leagues several times, I’d imagine.

So when someone says, ‘he hasn’t proved himself in the Premier League’ (for example), what they are in fact saying is that he hasn’t ‘proved himself’ against all the teams in the Premier League that are not good enough to get into the Champions League. Which is an asinine take……

 

[The holy trinity 68]

He doesn’t need to do that and it’s a nonsense argument, with respect. Pele was at Santos for most of his career, he’s still probably the greatest player of all time. If a guy wants to move around then fine, but it doesn’t make you better if you go to the biggest club in each country and score goals there.

Exactly

Here’s what I don’t get about the ‘hasn’t done it in different leagues’ merchants.

Just try and think about it. Pele played most of his career for Santos. But there pretty much isn’t a single great player from anywhere in the world that was around at his time that he did not play against at least a handful of times, either in international club games or in international football itself. So the notion that he hasn’t proved himself is nonsense, because he pretty much destroyed whoever he came up against. Also, the Santos team that he started with in the 50s was totally different from the one he finished with in 1974. So the idea that he was reliant on a particular system or group of teammates is nonsense.

All the above applies for Messi but even more so, because all the top players in the world nowadays play in four of five leagues in Europe, and we have a champions league competition that pits all the top teams against eachother every single year. Messi has played against every top defender in the Italian, German and English leagues several times, I’d imagine.

So when someone says, ‘he hasn’t proved himself in the Premier League’ (for example), what they are in fact saying is that he hasn’t ‘proved himself’ against all the teams in the Premier League that are not good enough to get into the Champions League. Which is an asinine take……

Messi has a better goals per game ratio vs 'The Top 6' from the PL than any other player in history and he doesn't even play in the PL.

Man City = 6 Games: 6 goals 2 assists
Man Utd = 6 Games: 4 goals 0 assists
Chelsea = 10 Games: 3 goals 3 assists
Arsenal = 6 Games: 9 goals 1 assist
Tottenham = 2 Games: 2 goals 0 assists
Liverpool = 4 Games: 2 goals 0 assists

34 games 26 goals 6 assists.

0.76 goals to game ratio.

0.94 goals and assists to game ratio.

His stats vs the best English clubs is insane, and people act like he would struggle vs the likes of West Brom and Norwich.

 

[Gehrman]

Messi has more goals vs 'The Top 6' from the PL than any other player in history and he doesn't even play in the PL.

Man City = 6 Games: 6 goals 2 assists
Man Utd = 6 Games: 4 goals 0 assists
Chelsea = 10 Games: 3 goals 3 assists
Arsenal = 6 Games: 9 goals 1 assist
Tottenham = 2 Games: 2 goals 0 assists
Liverpool = 4 Games: 2 goals 0 assists

34 games 26 goals 6 assists.

0.76 goals to game ratio.

0.94 goals and assists to game ratio.

His stats vs the best English clubs is insane, and people act like he would struggle vs the likes of West Brom and Norwich.

Messi doesnt have more goals against the top 6 than anyone in history though