Ok fair enough, I wasn't talking about tonight, it's a genuine questions. Some people on this thread give the impression that he's never ever had a bad game.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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well when it comes to messi and ronaldo not everyone can be a good poster and cool headed like you
Just to please Cal?...he wasn't excellent in the second half. Very quiet after his great first half.
Before the inevitable begins can I just say that it was his wonderful pass that killed the tie and after that Bayern were needing at least 5 goals. Which player in the world wouldn't be quiet and just stroll about the pitch after that?
Played his part in the 2nd goal too.
Did you even bother to read before quoting and replying?
I put it for context for the replies I agreed with.
Got the old Arsene handbrake on in the second half, after key contributions with two touches in the first.
He's like a broken record. Unbelievable consistency though, just as Ronaldo in his goalscoring.I don't get it, you're a top 5 poster in this one and the other thread purely for Ronaldo. You post on Ronaldo pretty much every single game, why watch (madrid I guess?) and post so much about a player you find boring?
My bet is that he has a secret mancrush on him, same kind the crazy ex-girlfriends have.
Playmaking is widely considered as one of the most beautiful aspects of football because it involves mastery of one of the core components of football - passing - and a cerebral nature on some level, and this is widely recognised as the aspect that Ronaldo falls down on, so I would say that's a definite exaggeration. Some people may love playmaking, dribbling and very little else, and the elegance and poise of someone like Silva, Hazard or Messi is the one thing they desire in a football match. If that's the case then Ronaldo won't be that enjoyable to watch. It'd be a bit strange because that's only one aspect of football but then there are some people who seem to only enjoy watching certain players or certain teams and have no time for football outside of that so it's not that strange when you look at the wider context.
Regardless, there are so many things that Ronaldo does exceptionally well outside of playmaking - which is undoubtedly a weakness - and goalscoring - which is obviously his core strength - that often get lost in these debates because people get sucked into debating in extremes and talking in hyperbole just to get their point across, simply because the same points have been said over and over and over again that the only way to make your point heard and have some semblance of a "discussion" is by sensationalising things. Which is one of the main reasons threads like these are absolutely awful.
I say that as someone who has been involved in all sides of the "debate" since the beginning too. When we reached the CL final I was adamant Ronaldo was the better, more complete player than Messi, then from 2009 up until around the beginning of last season I was in no doubt whatsoever that Messi was a level above, and then it looked like Ronaldo had a chance of surpassing Messi over the course of their careers through sheer will, determination and staying power while Messi looked physically and mentally drained for a long period of time...and now I'm back to thinking Messi's more or less untouchable. No doubt in that time I've spoken in hyperbole and discussed in extremes on a regular basis - it's just the nature of the debate at this stage. It does make for pretty rubbish discussion though.
For example some people come into the debate simply to say Ronaldo and Messi are the greatest ever, there's no argument to be had, modern football trumps all and that's all there is to it. The point in itself isn't that contentious but it's the underlying attitude and framing of the point that sort of sums up the debate. If your stance is that modern football is better than older football and the exceptional players of this era are therefore better than the exceptional players of previous eras, then why not simply describe them as the best players in the world (which ? It can only be because saying they're the best in the world isn't sensational enough, because it doesn't add anything else to the table.
Anyway, back to talking about Ronaldo rather than the Ronaldo and Messi debate itself...could anyone really argue against Ronaldo being exceptional at the following?
You can't judge a player on his component parts and ultimately it's about how he ties them together and utilises them that defines him as a player, but anyone with that level of quality and that repertoire of skills is exceptional by any measure. Yes a lot of these qualities are tailored towards scoring goals and his scarce involvement last week was one of many against quality opposition and underlines the somewhat more limited playing style he's chosen to utilise but that doesn't change the fact his arsenal of skills is practically unmatched in the modern game and a lot of those skills are comparable to the greatest players to play the game. Ultimately his inability to dictate the play in the final third means he isn't quite at the same level as the great attackers to play the game because no matter where they played they all possessed that essential skill, so I'm largely in agreement with the people who argue against Ronaldo in that context. I just think it's exaggerated and overblown and ends up leading to people either ignoring or missing some truly exceptional qualities that Ronaldo possesses.
- Athleticism (strength, speed, leap)
- Technique (first touch, striking, heading)
- Intelligence (positioning, timing)
- Mental strength
- Flair
The main thing I think that gets forgotten is Ronaldo's first touch. It's pretty much perfect. Definitely the best I've ever seen at United and quite possibly the best we've ever had at United. Ronaldo can be somewhat mechanical but a great first touch is one of the most beautiful things in football and Ronaldo definitely excels in that area.
Even when you just look at goals alone...to bunch it all together as just a load of tap-ins is ludicrous. He scores some genuinely outrageous goals from range that involve a mastery of a really difficult technique, but even if you just look at his goals from close range, is it really fair to bunch this goal in with a 2-yard tap-in?
Not for me. That's exceptional skill that involves technique, athleticism, creativity and intelligence and you'll see very, very, very few goals like it...I don't think it's unreasonable to call it unique. It's unique, it's skilful and it's pleasing on the eye but in some bizarre way, just because it'a goal scored within the box, it's disregarded as being a boring old tap-in. That's the unfortunate result of debates like this.
Marvelous post, I couldn't have write one myself.
I do agree that Messi is better (by a tiny bit) compared to Ronaldo, but to call him boring is an exaggeration. He is still currently the 2nd best player in the world, how you find someone who ranks 2nd in the whole world boring? There's not much middle zone when people are discussing Messi vs. Ronaldo, and everyone that prefers Ronaldo would be hit by this "boring vs. beautiful" stick. Ronaldo's a boxer, he doesn't know fancy mantis or crane kungfu move, but he's very good at what he does, while messi to me is more finesse than brute force. And like a boxing match, it really takes a boxing aficionado to appreciate what looks to a common eyes as boring match (Pacquiao vs. Mayweather) while in truth there are alot of technicalities involved. Messi is a special player, and even as Ronaldo fans I take off my hats for him, but Ronaldo deserves his own place among greats. If not for Messi, he'll probably be heralded as the 3rd behind Maradona / Pele
For all of Maradona's greatness, nobody write of Pele, and I consider Messi vs. Ronaldo is the Maradona vs. Pele Mk.II. We're all lucky to have witnesses their battle across the years and will live to tell.
The issue is Messi is at a level where Ronaldo just can't reach, from a goals perspective he can, technical ability he can't (the weight of pass every time, the curve on his passes, the vision to even see the pass, the perfect dribbles each time, surgical precision, the consistency of finishing and influence on his team I haven't seen anything like it). I don't really agree it's the "MKII" comparison of those two, it's similar but it's not the same.
I agree we're witnessing two of the greatest though, but I do think Messi is the greatest of all time, Ronaldo is one the best goalscorers of all time.
It's where you place Ronaldo along sides players like Cruyff, Di Stefano that I think is the hard point, he's on that tier below.
At the top it's Messi Pele Maradona. I find myself having to watch every game with Messi, and if I can atleast once a week of Ronaldo because I realise their careers are limited.
I think what José said about Messi would make any big team win the league and the champions league true, and I think in the world cup if the squad was fully fit it would have been a different story, slim margins though.
As for the goal Brwned used as an example, Ibrahimovic pulls off that kind of finish a lot in his career too.
Don't agree with that, there are plenty of things that Ronaldo regularly does that Messi cannot hope to do.
Such as? besides aerial ability
Whinge and make his team mates feel shit when they score. Break the confidence of other expensive signings, oh and abs.
You may it sound like aerial ability doesn't matter, Ronaldo's superiority in terms of aerial ability is more than in any area Messi is better at, even dribbling.
Also, Ronaldo contributes more to Madrid's defending than Messi to Barca's.
Messi obvious is the better player, and there is a few factors why the difference between the 2 is all to see. What I do love with messi, he plays for Barca FC, ronaldo plays for ronaldo FC, that is the difference between the 2. If I was a top player, I would rather play alongside messi every time. I always heard time and time again, xavi and iniesta were the main reason why messi could do what he could do, well iniesta is not quiet at the level he once was, he still is going strong, while xavi is no longer a starter for barca, but messi continues to be that driving influence in the barca team and they are in the final. When I look at ronaldo, he does not look to make others look better, only for himself. When I look at bale and a few others score the goals, or they do not pass to ronaldo, we see ronaldo going nuts because he did not score or get the pass to score the goal, he is almost got this mentality how dare anyone else not pass to me. We see messi assist get others into play, and he doing his best to see guys like suarez and neymar shine, and barca do not over rely on messi because guys like suarez and neymar are also stepping up.
That is the thing with messi, he has nothing else to prove on a club level, and he does not try his best to be the best, it just comes natural to him. Ronaldo seems to have put himself in this mindset, he has to give so much to be the best, he forgets his team mates. It seems to me when I look at ronaldo, its almost fear from ronaldo that he has to score almost every game, to be seen has the best player in the world, and it does water down the rest of the team that they have to pass to him. It is great for ronaldo he has that drive and mind set, but on a team level to have that obsession that he sees personal awards above what the team achieves, shows how selfish ronaldo is. Messi wants the team to do well, not what he wants, when you have that sort of gift its a special player
That is the thing with messi, he has nothing else to prove on a club level, and he does not try his best to be the best, it just comes natural to him. Ronaldo seems to have put himself in this mindset, he has to give so much to be the best, he forgets his team mates. It seems to me when I look at ronaldo, its almost fear from ronaldo that he has to score almost every game, to be seen has the best player in the world, and it does water down the rest of the team that they have to pass to him. It is great for ronaldo he has that drive and mind set, but on a team level to have that obsession that he sees personal awards above what the team achieves, shows how selfish ronaldo is. Messi wants the team to do well, not what he wants, when you have that sort of gift its a special player
That is the thing with messi, he does not try to be the best, it just comes natural to him. I look at ronaldo he is obsessed to be the best and he is obsessed to beat messi, but messi does not have that same mindset, his mindset is win a la liga title and CL title. It seems to me ronaldo is still proving everyone else he is the best, messi has nothing else to prove because he knows he has that extra gear that is unplayable. If we look at the way both players play the game, messi plays with a cigar and a top hat, he is a special player who makes others look even better. If we look at how messi has formed a partnership with suarez and neymar its brilliant to watch, ronaldo's partnership with bale and benzema is at times none existent in their happiness
Maybe in Cal? TV HD.
But in Sky or DirecTV Ronaldo doesn't work too much. Messi works harder.
At the end of the day Messi will make his team play better by being it and influencing the game over 90 minutes. Ronaldo will goal hang most of the game and demand the ball to be passed to him so he can score.
One plays for the team one plays for himself, i know who i would rather have on my team.
One plays for the team one plays for himself, i know who i would rather have on my team.
exactly what i think
Ronaldo thinks he needs to score goals in order to prove he is in the same level with messi, when the fact is, that he isnt no matter how many goals he scores
he is a great player, one of the best ever, but he is not in the GOAT list
How do you compare the gap between Ronaldo's heading ability and Messi's dribbling ? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.Ronaldo heading 10/10, Messi 5 at bestHow do you compare the gap between Ronaldo's heading ability and Messi's dribbling
Messi dribbling 10/10, Ronaldo 7 at worst
Simple
Giving Ronaldo a 7 in dribbling is a bit kind, he really hasn't done many dribbles this season to be classed as a 7/10
He's scored 10 more goals with his head this season. I can't find the dribbling stats but I'd be stunned if they were even anywhere near close in that department. Ronaldo isn't even as good a dribbler as guys like Hazard or Neymar.
I always find it funny how people clutch at straws with his heading. One dude is lucky to be 5'7 and the other's an absolute beast physically. One plays for a team that don't cross the ball the other plays for a team that does.
I'm surprised you're not telling us how much more dominant than Messi he is with his weaker foot despite Messi scoring the same amount more than Ronaldo that Ronaldo has with his head (10).
I wish it was easy to find dribbling stats. I think you'd be in for a big shock.
If Ronaldo is 7 at Dribbling Messi is 1500.
For a guy of his height I'd give a 9 to Messi in terms of headers and no way Ronaldo's dribbling is a 7 nowadays, more like 5.
Even more, one of the most important goals from Messi is a header in a Champions league match against Cristiano.
It's just a nosense.
It's just a nosense.
Found some stats.
In the league + CL Messi has completed 246 "take on's". I'm assuming that is directly beating a guy through your dribbling. Ronaldo has completed 79.
Ronaldo's scored 16 headed goals in those competitions. Messi has scored 6.
Thus, Cal's claim that Ronaldo is a better header of the ball than Messi is at dribbling is of course complete and utter nonsense.
In the league + CL Messi has completed 246 "take on's". I'm assuming that is directly beating a guy through your dribbling. Ronaldo has completed 79.
Ronaldo's scored 16 headed goals in those competitions. Messi has scored 6.
Thus, Cal's claim that Ronaldo is a better header of the ball than Messi is at dribbling is of course complete and utter nonsense.
As if football is generally played through the air, for a 'winger' dribbling is far more relevant. Maybe Cal plays too much FIFA, where heading is of big essence when you play online.
Yea exactly, messi I thought may not get back to where he was, but not only has messi returned to where he was, he has already raised the bar. That is the difference between the 2, messi makes others play better, Ronaldo just waters down the other attacking players. That pass messi did to start barca's first goal against bayern was fantastic, and sums up the many weapons he has got in the locker which will be crucial has messi begins his career in his 30's
I don't understand the C.Ronaldo not on the GOAT list argument. If Messi didn't exist, he would be hailed as the GOAT by most people right now, the way Messi is.
That alone should put him in consideration. The only reason people say he isn't on the list is because Messi is playing at the same time, and is considered better
If Cristiano was alone he would be considered as a GOAT. That would be over-rating him. If you watch Maradona or Pele videos you just can't compare them to Ronaldo. It's just a hole different level.
Ronaldo doesn't have this "genious" thing.
Instead of make us work searching for videos of Maradona and Pele, God sent us Lionel to understand that easier
If Cristiano was alone he would be considered as a GOAT. That would be over-rating him. If you watch Maradona or Pele videos you just can't compare them to Ronaldo. It's just a hole different level.
Ronaldo doesn't have this "genious" thing.
Instead of make us work searching for videos of Maradona and Pele, God sent us Lionel to understand that easier
See that's what I disagree with.
Personally, I don't think Ronaldo is a GOAT candidate, but can see why people can. If you don't think he is a genius you didn't see him for United.
Ronaldo today is not the Ronaldo of years ago, people always forget that.
I understand what you say and it's true. At United he was a genious, but while playing for United. A Genious can win a match on his own for me. Can do something out of nothing.
But that's the reason I don't rate Ronaldinho as a GOAT, but as one of the best ever. Consistency is for me the key here. Messi has been a genious since playing for Grandoli with 4 years of age until today. Cristiano changed his game.
Sorry Cal everything you just said is absolute nonsense and stats back that up too, Messi contributes so much more defensively than Ronaldo this season.
Also the argument about heading it's just not true better than anything Messi does? do you remember the times against Bayern when he flicked a header down to put Suárez in behind for the Neymar goal? honestly I don't know if you are watching the same games I am.
Statistics also back this up, I'll be happy to provide a link for you if you want.
Ronaldo is in the tier below with Cruyff and Di Stefano in my opinion.
Messi is probably equal or greater than Pelé with Maradona in that GOAT list. he's just a level above what Ronaldo can reach and it's hard to dispute that.
You can't ignore his height, I could say for Ronaldo's center of gravity, he should be 9 for dribbling.
You can't pick and choose, you can't say he's a 9 dribbling because he's taller, in that case Messi is a 15 for heading because he's 5'7 (although he's a very good header of the ball and its a complete myth people bring into the argument).
It's just incredible
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