Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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Both hands down in the top five ever to have played but let's be honest, one of them had a whole club/institution built around them before they had pubic hair and the other was given a platform because Gary Neville got a boner one summer. One worked harder then anyone in the sport to get to the top while the other had the talent and mentality to be a mansion sized cherry on wedding cake.
At this point comparing them by goals, assists, trophies and personal accolades is pointless. They are the thick cream on top of the pint of milk. We should be going deeper. These two mutherfeckers are an anomaly in football science. There is no comparison. Messi is Messi and Ronaldo is Ronaldo and I hope I live long enough to see a couple more kids emulate these two to the pinnacle of the best sport in the world.
 
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It would have been cool to see them play together if Ronaldo had gone to Barcalona instead of Real Madrid or Messi to Man Utd.
 
One thing that amazes me is that despite them being arguably 2 of the greatest players of all time, they have a grand total of 0 goals combined in WC knockout games, despite playing at 4 World Cups each... obviously international football is much different to club football but I look at a talent like Mbappe who at a young age put up important goals in the knockouts.

You can argue Argentina and Portugal haven't been as good, but we are talking about 2 players who many consider "aliens" in football. Just an observation.
 
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Their international careers should be beyond comparison by now.

Before Ronaldo, we had been to 3 World Cups and 3 Euros. With Ronaldo we've gone to 5 Euros (5th one to still be played) and 4 World Cups. People can say that it's easier to qualify now rather than how it used to be with less teams but we used to fall at the first hurdle of qualification back then and loads of different european countries that are now rated below us qualified more often to tournaments. While we had 3 qualifications to the WC before Ronaldo came along, Sweden had 10, Belgium had 11, Scotland and the Czech Republic had 8, Bulgaria/Romania/Switzerland had 7, etc.

Our status as a national team was miles off other non-elite european countries nevermind even come close to the top countries. In the past 16/17 years no country has climbed up the ranks in terms of international results as much as us.

Before Ronaldo we had never even played a final, had been to the WC knockouts once in our whole history. Even in the Eusebio/Coluna days with that great Benfica generation that pulled off a historic run to the WC semis in 66 we fell against Bulgaria at the first stage of qualification to the Euros in 68 just like we had done 4 years before. With the golden generation (Figo, Rui Costa, Couto, etc.) at their best we still failed to qualify to the World Cup in 98 behind the Ukraine.

Take Ronaldo out of the equation and we had way more talented squads in the 90s than we had during the 2010s decade yet the results are like night and day.

He could have retired in 2006 and be remembered as a legend for Portugal only for his contributions in his first Euros and first World Cup. Since then he's added almost 15 years of top level football and about 90 goals. Qualified to every single tournament since his debut, in Europe only France, Spain and Germany can say the same. Italy, England and Holland have missed tournaments for example. Made it 3 times to the WC knockouts, 4 times to the Euros knockouts. Carried us on his back so many times in so many big games that everybody's stopped counting, was arguably our best player at every single tournament we've played for 17 years straight, became the top ever goalscorer at the Euros and he's only 2 assists off being the top assist maker too, lifted 2 trophies and will soon have scored more goals than anyone has ever scored for their country.

Most of the all time greats of the sport all got lucky to be born in Brazil/Argentina/Germany/France, he didn't but he's still made the most of it.
 
GiddyUp said:
Both hands down in the top five ever to have played but let's be honest, one of them had a whole club/institution built around them before they had pubic hair and the other was given a platform because Gary Neville got a boner one summer. One worked harder then anyone in the sport to get to the top while the other had the talent and mentality to be a mansion sized cherry on wedding cake.
At this point comparing them by goals, assists, trophies and personal accolades is pointless. They are the thick cream on top of the pint of milk. We should be going deeper. These two mutherfeckers are an anomaly in football science. There is no comparison. Messi is Messi and Ronaldo is Ronaldo and I hope I live long enough to see a couple more kids emulate these two to the pinnacle of the best sport in the world.
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I’m a little late but feck off

The stats speak for themselves
 
What’s stunning is that Messi and Ronaldo have zero knockout goals in the World Cup.

Makes no sense
 
InterFan1998 said:
One thing that amazes me is that despite them being arguably 2 of the greatest players of all time, they have a grand total of 0 goals combined in WC knockout games, despite playing at 4 World Cups each... obviously international football is much different to club football but I look at a talent like Mbappe who at a young age put up important goals in the knockouts.

You can argue Argentina and Portugal haven't been as good, but we are talking about 2 players who many consider "aliens" in football. Just an observation.
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Totally missed this when I made my comment. It really is dumbfounding isn’t it? Maybe 2022 as their final WC will change that
 
Daysleeper said:
Totally missed this when I made my comment. It really is dumbfounding isn’t it? Maybe 2022 as their final WC will change that
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Still don’t think it matters that much in Messi’s case or Ronaldo’s. The World Cup is amazing but the level Messi reached in that Barcelona side was higher than anyone has ever reached in the sport.

People talk about it’s easier to perform in big sides yet replace Messi with anyone else in history and that side would have been worse.

Di Stefano is probably in the top 5 players of all time yet he didn’t play in a World Cup. Never mind win the thing.
 
Son said:
Still don’t think it matters that much in Messi’s case or Ronaldo’s. The World Cup is amazing but the level Messi reached in that Barcelona side was higher than anyone has ever reached in the sport.

People talk about it’s easier to perform in big sides yet replace Messi with anyone else in history and that side would have been worse.

Di Stefano is probably in the top 5 players of all time yet he didn’t play in a World Cup. Never mind win the thing.
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I think the argument being, Di Stefano has never play the WC so we never know, but Messi and Ronaldo did play in all 4 WC, despite their total domination in club football (both domestic and European, which is at the highest level of football), they still fail in WC.
 
shamans said:
:lol: Don't start this again. Argentina is not functioning, yet it was Higuain who dragged them to the world cup. Portugals Euro run up until the final was very impressive. Ronaldo ripped through teams and was an integral part of the whole tournament.

The pressure is really high at the international arena so that's why it counts. The fact that Messi in a start studded Argentina team could not win a world cup is negative for sure. Ronaldo is the type of leader who would have whipped the Argentina team in shape and won them a world cup.
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I don't know why you start that all over again but anyway:

1. I simply don't see leadership as a defining quality of a footballer. That's something which only emerged in recent years by Cristiano Ronaldo fans searching for arguments in this very discussion. Nobody would've said 15 years ago "well, I think Ronaldinho is a worse footballer than xyz because he's no leader". In fact, many of the best footballers in histories were egocentric divas and as such terrible, terrible leaders. Which leads to my second point:

2. We have no evidence at all that Cristiano possesses remarkable leadership apart from being a role model in professionalism. This whole narrative stems from some touch line antics after he got subbed off due to injury. On the other hand, Cristiano has shown terrible, terrible leadership skills during multiple occasions at various stages of his career - worse than pretty much any great footballer I can remember. Like cursing when a team mate scores a goal, openly criticizing the second row of his team for being too worse to play alongside him, etc. Even if it doesn't fit this preferred narrative, those things have happened and they alone are enough to disqualify him as a good leader. I think it's actually ridiculous that people call him that despite of those things. I'd find it horrendous to work for someone with such egocentric habits and everyone who has anything to do with the topic leadership will confirm you that those are absolute no gos. Yet, as stated earlier, this has nothing to do with his quality as a footballer. Actually his obsession with his personal success is probably what made him so good in the first place.

3. You can recount how good Messis team mates for Argentina were as much as you want. Argentina was never a functioning unit in the past 15 years and Messis not to blame for that. The best Argentina side he played in was probably Pekerman's Argentina in 2006 and Messi was what, 17 back then?
You maybe had a point if Messi had actually been playing bad for Argentina but that was never the case. He showed the same skills as he did for Barcelona, just less frequently respectively with less end product because the teams he played in didn't work as a collective and were painfully dependent on individual brilliance. Honestly, I don't understand how people still don't see this in a time in which coaches like Klopp or Guardiola prove how incredibly important that aspect is. It's so painfully obvious nowadays how a functioning team affects the perception of every single player in it. Yet people pretend it's his fault that Argentina was in such dreadful states during his career. I mean, at some point, he was coached by Diego Maradona at a world cup. For once, let that really sink in.
 
Zehner said:
I don't know why you start that all over again but anyway:

1. I simply don't see leadership as a defining quality of a footballer. That's something which only emerged in recent years by Cristiano Ronaldo fans searching for arguments in this very discussion. Nobody would've said 15 years ago "well, I think Ronaldinho is a worse footballer than xyz because he's no leader". In fact, many of the best footballers in histories were egocentric divas and as such terrible, terrible leaders. Which leads to my second point:

2. We have no evidence at all that Cristiano possesses remarkable leadership apart from being a role model in professionalism. This whole narrative stems from some touch line antics after he got subbed off due to injury. On the other hand, Cristiano has shown terrible, terrible leadership skills during multiple occasions at various stages of his career - worse than pretty much any great footballer I can remember. Like cursing when a team mate scores a goal, openly criticizing the second row of his team for being too worse to play alongside him, etc. Even if it doesn't fit this preferred narrative, those things have happened and they alone are enough to disqualify him as a good leader. I think it's actually ridiculous that people call him that despite of those things. I'd find it horrendous to work for someone with such egocentric habits and everyone who has anything to do with the topic leadership will confirm you that those are absolute no gos. Yet, as stated earlier, this has nothing to do with his quality as a footballer. Actually his obsession with his personal success is probably what made him so good in the first place.

3. You can recount how good Messis team mates for Argentina were as much as you want. Argentina was never a functioning unit in the past 15 years and Messis not to blame for that. The best Argentina side he played in was probably Pekerman's Argentina in 2006 and Messi was what, 17 back then?
You maybe had a point if Messi had actually been playing bad for Argentina but that was never the case. He showed the same skills as he did for Barcelona, just less frequently respectively with less end product because the teams he played in didn't work as a collective and were painfully dependent on individual brilliance. Honestly, I don't understand how people still don't see this in a time in which coaches like Klopp or Guardiola prove how incredibly important that aspect is. It's so painfully obvious nowadays how a functioning team affects the perception of every single player in it. Yet people pretend it's his fault that Argentina was in such dreadful states during his career. I mean, at some point, he was coached by Diego Maradona at a world cup. For once, let that really sink in.
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Evrything is Ronaldo's fault when things go wrong while it's never Messi's fault. No wonder no one takes you seriously, it's pathetic.
 
Zehner said:
I don't know why you start that all over again but anyway:

1. I simply don't see leadership as a defining quality of a footballer. That's something which only emerged in recent years by Cristiano Ronaldo fans searching for arguments in this very discussion. Nobody would've said 15 years ago "well, I think Ronaldinho is a worse footballer than xyz because he's no leader". In fact, many of the best footballers in histories were egocentric divas and as such terrible, terrible leaders. Which leads to my second point:

2. We have no evidence at all that Cristiano possesses remarkable leadership apart from being a role model in professionalism. This whole narrative stems from some touch line antics after he got subbed off due to injury. On the other hand, Cristiano has shown terrible, terrible leadership skills during multiple occasions at various stages of his career - worse than pretty much any great footballer I can remember. Like cursing when a team mate scores a goal, openly criticizing the second row of his team for being too worse to play alongside him, etc. Even if it doesn't fit this preferred narrative, those things have happened and they alone are enough to disqualify him as a good leader. I think it's actually ridiculous that people call him that despite of those things. I'd find it horrendous to work for someone with such egocentric habits and everyone who has anything to do with the topic leadership will confirm you that those are absolute no gos. Yet, as stated earlier, this has nothing to do with his quality as a footballer. Actually his obsession with his personal success is probably what made him so good in the first place.

3. You can recount how good Messis team mates for Argentina were as much as you want. Argentina was never a functioning unit in the past 15 years and Messis not to blame for that. The best Argentina side he played in was probably Pekerman's Argentina in 2006 and Messi was what, 17 back then?
You maybe had a point if Messi had actually been playing bad for Argentina but that was never the case. He showed the same skills as he did for Barcelona, just less frequently respectively with less end product because the teams he played in didn't work as a collective and were painfully dependent on individual brilliance. Honestly, I don't understand how people still don't see this in a time in which coaches like Klopp or Guardiola prove how incredibly important that aspect is. It's so painfully obvious nowadays how a functioning team affects the perception of every single player in it. Yet people pretend it's his fault that Argentina was in such dreadful states during his career. I mean, at some point, he was coached by Diego Maradona at a world cup. For once, let that really sink in.
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You have decent posts when its not related to messi, but Im not going to engage in this. Some seriois mental gymnastics to downplay Ronaldo while claim messi has had barcelona level performances for argentina.

Well fact is Ronaldo has won a Euro for Portugal. Messi has bottled several trophoes for powerful Argentina.
 
shamans said:
You have decent posts when its not related to messi, but Im not going to engage in this. Some seriois mental gymnastics to downplay Ronaldo while claim messi has had barcelona level performances for argentina.

Well fact is Ronaldo has won a Euro for Portugal. Messi has bottled several trophoes for powerful Argentina.
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A powerful Argentina with zero spine or defence and Messi has a World Cup Golden Ball & a World Cup final appearance. A few inches from winning the thing with one of his shots. Who cares though? Messi is the greatest ever with anyone with a functioning pair of eyes. The best player ever to put on a pair of boots and thats a fact.
 
Son said:
A powerful Argentina with zero spine or defence and Messi has a World Cup Golden Ball & a World Cup final appearance. A few inches from winning the thing with one of his shots. Who cares though? Messi is the greatest ever with anyone with a functioning pair of eyes. The best player ever to put on a pair of boots and thats a fact.
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ronaldo.jpg
 
shamans said:
You have decent posts when its not related to messi, but Im not going to engage in this. Some seriois mental gymnastics to downplay Ronaldo while claim messi has had barcelona level performances for argentina.

Well fact is Ronaldo has won a Euro for Portugal. Messi has bottled several trophoes for powerful Argentina.
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No, the fact is that Ronaldo and Messi have led their teams to different finals. The difference is that Eder helped Ronaldo win the euros in a game where Ronaldo only played about 10mins before going off injured.
 
shamans said:
ronaldo.jpg
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I love Ronny btw. He might be second after Messi but he was never as good was he?

That Barcelona side & especially the 2012 incarnation of Messi was otherworldly good. He reached heights that season that may never be topped as performances go throughout a year.

Juve would win Serie A easily even without Ronaldo as Messi is still carrying a larger club in Barcelona on his back and is still the best player in the world.
 
footballistic orgasm said:
No, the fact is that Ronaldo and Messi have led their teams to different finals. The difference is that Eder helped Ronaldo win the euros in a game where Ronaldo only played about 10mins before going off injured.
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Spot on. Ronaldo was also a ghost in the nations league final
 
In Messi's 2011-2012 season he was just insane. Never seen anything like it. For me you could say that they are equally great, but for me Messi is better.
 
Son said:
A powerful Argentina with zero spine or defence and Messi has a World Cup Golden Ball & a World Cup final appearance. A few inches from winning the thing with one of his shots. Who cares though? Messi is the greatest ever with anyone with a functioning pair of eyes. The best player ever to put on a pair of boots and thats a fact.
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That's really a stupid statement, its sounds like some 5 years old would say, really. You could argue all day Messi is better player than Ronaldo, which is fine, if thats your honest opinion. You may even say Messi is better than Pele, Maradona, Cruyff and Di Stefano too, in fact, its doesn't really matter as they are all GOAT from different eras, breaking all kinds of records and winning everything in their time. But to suggest people are blind disagreeing with that, its beyond stupid.
 
Out of interest, do people who use the argument that Ronaldo is better because he has played in different leagues discount players like Maldini, Baresi, Beckenbauer, Xavi, Iniesta etc? Messi is the only player I see getting criticised for this..
 
Bondathon said:
Out of interest, do people who use the argument that Ronaldo is better because he has played in different leagues discount players like Maldini, Baresi, Beckenbauer, Xavi, Iniesta etc? Messi is the only player I see getting criticised for this..
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It's not fair to criticize players for not moving leagues but I think it's fair to give praise to players who have succeeded in lots of different circumstances given the amount of players who have failed to perform at the same level in different setups.

I think the Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta midfield was absolutely perfect, they were born to play together. But I don't believe any of them would have hit the same heights with different players around them and with a different approach to games for example. There's no proof of it as it didn't happen so am I being unfair in making that claim or is it impossible to make an assumption on how different circumstances would affect a player's performances?
 
Zehner said:
Nah, since 11 ;)
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Oh come on your too generous! I know Ronaldo is great but Messi still had a case for debate at that time.

Hence why I said 5 but in retrospect ya 11 makes more sense ;)
 
I’m 100% Ronaldo and always have been since that debut against Bolton, but not ashamed to say that Messi was the best player the world has ever seen. Top level and top level held over many years, although Ronaldo has been better other years and kept it going for a longer time. Those years when Barca were at their best is a team we will never see again, same with these two players. We will never see two players as good over so many years, winning so many trophies and scoring a ridiculous amount of goals. In their best season, these two guys scored a combined 96 league goals between them. It should not be possible, it isn’t possible, they did it. Some 30 more goals than United as a whole scored last year?

What’s most important for me is that both get the recognition as number 1 and 2 in history, or joint 1st or whatever it takes. They are not just ahead of the others, they are galaxies above Pele, Maradona, Cruyff and whatever else you throw in from the 50’s - 90’s. Top level, output, longevity, it just cannot be compared. Perhaps a few decades are needed to get all the hipsters on board the train.
 
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