Sir Alex is regarded as the greatest manager ever by most and pretty much all his achievements came at one club.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Sir Alex is regarded as the greatest manager ever by most and pretty much all his achievements came at one club.
But he did score and put in world class performances against both Man utd and Liverpool without Xavi and Iniesta last season.You either don't know what you're talking about or you're clearly trolling.
Xavi hasn't played for Barca since 2015 and was a only part player that season (started only 1 CL game) where they won the treble. Messi's still been going strong since then and still beat your hero to the Pichichi in 16/17 and 17/18.
I could use your mental gymnastics to point out the fact that Ronaldo has never won the CL without Sir Alex or Modric and use that as a stick to beat him with.
What happened to Barcelona against Liverpool? Mate don't make an assumption. I'm not saying he can't play football for Barcelona, I'm saying he won't play the same 100% quality for another team and there is absolute no proof that he would. If Messi performs how he does for Argentina for Barcelona I really doubt he would be called GOAT. I really doubt it.
Yeah Messi scored 2 out of Barcelona 3 goals vs Liverpool and created the chances they had in the 2nd leg. Against us in the quarterfinal he scored the 2 out 4 goals they scored and finished CL topscorer.
I don't think you get how much football is a team game, but also how much depends on the manager and sometimes luck.
In the 2008 CL final, Ronaldo did good by scoring our only goal, but he botched his penalty in the shootout by trying to be too smart and could have been scapegoated if Terry hadn't slipped. In the 2009 final Ronaldo couldn't get near the goal, because Barca completely dominated us. In the CL final vs Liverpool, Karius handed them the CL trophy on a silverplatter by gifting them 2 goals and Bale scored a worldie.
For sure the star player carries his responsibility, but the rest of the team and the manager has too. And sometimes there's just luck. With a little bit less luck, Fergie could easily have lost the 2 CL trophies he has.
And Messi for Barcelona is great - a completely different monster to the one that plays for Argentina so I think I see the team aspect perfectly fine.
It's the fact that I can see it why I hold Messi and his ability and his ability for Barcelona alone as amazing but usually painted with the wonders of his wonderful Barcelona team mates or the flops of his La liga opposition.
That's why I wonder why I don't see the same Messi I see for Argentina as I Barcelona & that ultimately comes down to much more down to his team mates and how they set up an ability for him to play his own individually wonderful type of football - something Ronaldo had to give up at United to become much more efficient all rounder as no one at United could play like Barcelona could and set up.
Anyway let's just agree to disagree.
Is there a difference between the Argentina Messi & the Barcelona Messi to you or do you see the same magician?
You keep talking about national teams. You do realize that CR plays against at least 2 cannon fodder teams each qualification cycle? He can easily stat pad every 2 years against the likes of Faroe Islands, Latvias, Lithuanias, Luxembourgs, Liechtensteins,..
I have seen Messi dribble past players for Argentina like he does for Barca, pass as well and have scored some nice goals. But yeah I agree he hasnt hit the same heights with Argentina as he has with Barcalona. We will never know how prime Messi would fare in another club, just like we don't know how prime Pelé would do with another club than Santos.
If you were Messi in his prime, which club would you logically move to that wouldn't be a step down from Barcalona?
Still Messi
I think in general both Messi and Ronaldo play worse for their national teams, which is generally because their teammates are not as good.
For example, when Portugal won the Euros Ronaldo only scored 1 goal in the knockouts, while.even for Juventus last year in the CL, he scored 5 in 4 games, which is more than a goal per game. In the World Cup knockouts I dont think he's ever scored a goal - it's obvious his performances and goal stats in CL knockouts exceed the ones in WC knockouts.
For example, when Portugal won the Euros Ronaldo only scored 1 goal in the knockouts, while.even for Juventus last year in the CL, he scored 5 in 4 games, which is more than a goal per game. In the World Cup knockouts I dont think he's ever scored a goal - it's obvious his performances and goal stats in CL knockouts exceed the ones in WC knockouts.
Well, I care.
International goals are official goals which count for total career goals. Legends like Pele, Romario, Puskas, Muller who broke the 700+ goals milestone etc count it, Messi counts it in 2012 when he break the all time record of total goals score in a year. Only irrelevant players who never score for his country doesn’t count it at all.
same applies to the EPL, epl was pretty crummy up until two years ago and even then it’s still a 1 or 2 horse race now.
I can remember Chelsea in 2010 having several 8-0 or 9-0 wins.
What's the EPL got to do with the point I was making?
Can you? I can't. Although my memory is shocking, I'm fairly sure that wasn't the case.
They had a very good run where they did
There weren't any 9 nils but a few 7-0 and 7-1s
But this isn't the norm for the league it rarely happens.
8:0 wigan on the last day, 7:0 v stoke 36MD, 7:2 v Sunderland 22MD. That season was weird though. Lots of high scoring games. Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham all scored 6 goals in a match (Spurs beat wigan 9:1)
Sorry I meant Chelsea didn't get any 9 nils.
Where does the notion that bottom table clubs in Spain are worse than their equals in England? Yes, the Spanish giants scored more and got more points than gheir English equivalents and yes, that inflated Messi's and CR7's numbers but that's down to the gap in quality. The Spanish top clubs were heads and shoulders above any club in England throughout their time in Spain. Their CL record speaks for themselves and so does the EL record of the second tier clubs.
Not true, and you can see it every year in Europa League. Just right now you have Espanyol, the last team in the table and it finished first of its group in EL. And Getafe a team with only 56 Million budget, did also went through. I don't think that the average level is lower than in PL. It's true that last 2 years it went a bit down because teams can't retain quality having less money than PL, but in my opinion small teams managers optimise better their players in Spain
That if you out Ronaldo or Messi in City
Or Liverpool they would also be getting 40+ goals a year because there are a lot of crappy teams in the EPL as well. Would love to play Bournemouth and watford and west ham twice a year each.
Points difference between first place in EPL and 8th place: 25 points
Point difference between first place and LAST place in La Liga: 25 points
But yes, after the top 6 is where la liga goes to crap while epl has great teams all throughout. Oof
That doesn't prove anything. If all teams are a similar crap level the points difference won't be much. How about looking at the number of points and goals Real and Barca score every year.
Barca and real isn’t any different than Liverpool today who are light years ahead of the rest their league. The same criticisms levied against Barca and Madrid absolutely applies to city and pool last year and Liverpool this year where they are so far ahead of the rest of their league. The EPL may have the most boring title race of the all the major European leagues this season. You put Messi or in his heyday Ronaldo on those teams they’d do even better than what your Agueros, Vardys, Kane’s and Salahs have been doing.
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I actually rate La Liga as the best out of all leagues. It is true that there can be lopsided scores against the top teams but bottom teams in La Liga generally play more brave than teams in Italy/England against the top teams and try to attack them. They don't show as much fear and that's also why you see Osasuna draw against Barcelona this season and Levante beating Barcelona last season.
You could also make the argument that the bottom and midtable teams in England lack quality. I believe Liverpool have won something like 19 out of the last 20 games or something like that. And I think most people here will say that Liverpool haven't played that well, so you could easily make the argument that the bottom teams lack quality since Liverpool are pretty much beating everyone without even playing well.
The same was true in Italy where Juventus would beat almost every team without putting in good performances.
You could also make the argument that the bottom and midtable teams in England lack quality. I believe Liverpool have won something like 19 out of the last 20 games or something like that. And I think most people here will say that Liverpool haven't played that well, so you could easily make the argument that the bottom teams lack quality since Liverpool are pretty much beating everyone without even playing well.
The same was true in Italy where Juventus would beat almost every team without putting in good performances.
Messi has a goalscoring record against the top 6 in the PL of 0.76 having scored more goals than PL legends Rooney and RVP.
Do you really think that figure would go down if he was playing against the likes of Moyes' West Ham and Tim Sherwood's Aston Villa rather than SAF's United and Klopp's Liverpool?
Here's a list of the highest goal contributions (non-penalty goals and assists) in a single season since 2000.
Very surprisng to see Ronaldo only feature once in this, whereas Messi has 8 of the top 20 seasons.
Here's a list of the highest goal contributions (non-penalty goals and assists) in a single season since 2000.
Very surprisng to see Ronaldo only feature once in this, whereas Messi has 8 of the top 20 seasons.
Strange how there is no single season from 00/01 until 05/06 and yet there are 4 just from 15/16. In fact there are only 2 players from the first decade in there. Klose in 05/06 and Messi in 09/10
Defenders are significantly worse in the last decade there’s no denying.
Not that surprising, Messi is just as freakish with assists as he is with goals.
Here's a list of the highest goal contributions (non-penalty goals and assists) in a single season since 2000.
Very surprisng to see Ronaldo only feature once in this, whereas Messi has 8 of the top 20 seasons.
Also, Sancho and Mbappe are absolutely the leaders of the new school. The 92-97 group had its players with promise but nobody really was on that ‘next best in the world level’. Neymar came closest but injuries really fecked him.
I wonder if either of those two can really step and take that mantle.
Here's a list of the highest goal contributions (non-penalty goals and assists) in a single season since 2000.
Very surprisng to see Ronaldo only feature once in this, whereas Messi has 8 of the top 20 seasons.
Made it in 2014/15 which wasn't even close to his best season too, weird list. Bale, Benzema, Suarez and Ibra all made it in 2015/16 but no Messi or Ronaldo.
I meant it's surprising that Ronaldo is only featured once, I wasn't surprised Messi featured 8 times.
Ronaldo is certainly not the playmaker Messi is, but neither is Klose, Bale or Higuain. I always thought the Penaldo nickname was stupid but perhaps it's a little more accurate than I thought.
I think even if Sancho and Mbappe fulfil their potential and are lucky with injuries, they will still be a level below Ronaldo and Messi.
Wow Ronaldo has more 4 more assists, 14 more goals in the CL than messi, whilst only 4 more were penalties than messi took himself
The 2 years age difference makes no difference either because Messi already looks 1/8th a level below himself with every passing month without iniesta and Xavi around him whilst Ronaldo continues to age in to a formidable striker who tries to simplify his game to different team mates and tactics in Italy. Ageing sure but he is older adapting to a different league.
Messi spending his career loyal to Barcelona has made him La Liga's best ever player, dribbling past the same defensive tactics has made him great on the eye but not even to be the best ever argentinian player to Argentinian fans - because ultimately he is that, hes great on the eye and for some reason reason that's enough for some fans for him to be the GOAT. Fair enough.
Ronaldo on the other hand started as a completely lost winger as sporting Lisbon crossing balls in, then becoming a mix of that and an inverted forward at United, at Real Madrid become a complete inverted forward scoring goals for fun and now at Juventus is becoming a Centre forward or striker.
Never mind the trophies both international, variously domesticated that he trashed messi with never mind the scoring record - he absolutely runs Messi with his career and the only thing Messi does better than him is playing better than him on the eye with is largely helped by playing for the same league and same team for whole of your career.
C. Ronaldo at Barcelona in David Villa's position would have been doing better than what he did at Real Madrid and if pep had gone for zlatan then I dont see why Ronaldo wouldn't have been an option.
GOAT.
The 2 years age difference makes no difference either because Messi already looks 1/8th a level below himself with every passing month without iniesta and Xavi around him whilst Ronaldo continues to age in to a formidable striker who tries to simplify his game to different team mates and tactics in Italy. Ageing sure but he is older adapting to a different league.
Messi spending his career loyal to Barcelona has made him La Liga's best ever player, dribbling past the same defensive tactics has made him great on the eye but not even to be the best ever argentinian player to Argentinian fans - because ultimately he is that, hes great on the eye and for some reason reason that's enough for some fans for him to be the GOAT. Fair enough.
Ronaldo on the other hand started as a completely lost winger as sporting Lisbon crossing balls in, then becoming a mix of that and an inverted forward at United, at Real Madrid become a complete inverted forward scoring goals for fun and now at Juventus is becoming a Centre forward or striker.
Never mind the trophies both international, variously domesticated that he trashed messi with never mind the scoring record - he absolutely runs Messi with his career and the only thing Messi does better than him is playing better than him on the eye with is largely helped by playing for the same league and same team for whole of your career.
C. Ronaldo at Barcelona in David Villa's position would have been doing better than what he did at Real Madrid and if pep had gone for zlatan then I dont see why Ronaldo wouldn't have been an option.
GOAT.
Wow Ronaldo has more 4 more assists, 14 more goals in the CL than messi, whilst only 4 more were penalties than messi took himself
The 2 years age difference makes no difference either because Messi already looks 1/8th a level below himself with every passing month without iniesta and Xavi around him whilst Ronaldo continues to age in to a formidable striker who tries to simplify his game to different team mates and tactics in Italy.
Messi spending his career loyal to Barcelona has made him La Liga's best ever player, dribbling past the same defensive tactics has made him great on the eye but not even to be the best ever argentinian player to Argentinian fans - because ultimately he is that, hes great on the eye and for some reason reason that's enough for some fans for him to be the GOAT. Fair enough.
Ronaldo on the other hand started as a completely lost winger as sporting Lisbon crossing balls in, then becoming a mix of that and an inverted forward at United, at Real Madrid become a complete inverted forward scoring goals for fun and now at Juventus is becoming a Centre forward or striker.
Never mind the trophies both international, variously domesticated that he trashed messi with never mind the scoring record - he absolutely runs Messi with his career and the only thing Messi does better than him is playing better than him on the eye with is largely helped by playing for the same league and same team for whole of your career.
C. Ronaldo at Barcelona in David Villa's position would have been doing better than what he did at Real Madrid and if pep had gone for zlatan then I dont see why Ronaldo wouldn't have been an option.
GOAT.
This is an embarrassing post.
He scored close to 40 pens more than Messi. I mean 1/5 of his goals are pens compared to Messi's 1/7Wow Ronaldo has more 4 more assists, 14 more goals in the CL than messi, whilst only 4 more were penalties than messi took himself
The 2 years age difference makes no difference either because Messi already looks 1/8th a level below himself with every passing month without iniesta and Xavi around him whilst Ronaldo continues to age in to a formidable striker who tries to simplify his game to different team mates and tactics in Italy. Ageing sure but he is older adapting to a different league.
Messi spending his career loyal to Barcelona has made him La Liga's best ever player, dribbling past the same defensive tactics has made him great on the eye but not even to be the best ever argentinian player to Argentinian fans - because ultimately he is that, hes great on the eye and for some reason reason that's enough for some fans for him to be the GOAT. Fair enough.
Ronaldo on the other hand started as a completely lost winger as sporting Lisbon crossing balls in, then becoming a mix of that and an inverted forward at United, at Real Madrid become a complete inverted forward scoring goals for fun and now at Juventus is becoming a Centre forward or striker.
Never mind the trophies both international, variously domesticated that he trashed messi with never mind the scoring record - he absolutely runs Messi with his career and the only thing Messi does better than him is playing better than him on the eye with is largely helped by playing for the same league and same team for whole of your career.
C. Ronaldo at Barcelona in David Villa's position would have been doing better than what he did at Real Madrid and if pep had gone for zlatan then I dont see why Ronaldo wouldn't have been an option.
GOAT.
I guess one difference between the 2 players, is that it's probably easier (well to me at least) to think of masterclass performances from Messi in games that he didn't score in (i.e. the 5-0 Clasico win against Real Madrid in 2010/2011, the CL 2nd leg against Man City in 2014/2015, the 2015 Copa America semi-final against Paraguay etc) than Ronaldo.
I might have killed too many of my brain cells with rum and might not be thinking hard enough, but that is the way it has seemed to me.
I might have killed too many of my brain cells with rum and might not be thinking hard enough, but that is the way it has seemed to me.
Champions league.
Let me guess you have CR posters in your bedroom?
Looking back at it, the stupidest decision of Ronaldo's career was leaving United to a Madrid team that was much worse at the time right after Barca had won the treble. He left the Premier League to La Liga right as La Liga was passing the Premier League as the best league in the world
Wasted 2/3 years trying to dethrone the best team ever with a team that simply wasn't on the same level, his trophy case would look so much better if he had avoided Pep's Barca and had stayed at United for 3/4 years more. During his 9 years in Madrid, Barca only finished under 90 points once and that's when they finished with 87 points. It was awful timing.
Wasted 2/3 years trying to dethrone the best team ever with a team that simply wasn't on the same level, his trophy case would look so much better if he had avoided Pep's Barca and had stayed at United for 3/4 years more. During his 9 years in Madrid, Barca only finished under 90 points once and that's when they finished with 87 points. It was awful timing.
Looking back at it, the stupidest decision of Ronaldo's career was leaving United to a Madrid team that was much worse at the time right after Barca had won the treble. He left the Premier League to La Liga right as La Liga was passing the Premier League as the best league in the world
Wasted 2/3 years trying to dethrone the best team ever with a team that simply wasn't on the same level, his trophy case would look so much better if he had avoided Pep's Barca and had stayed at United for 3/4 years more. During his 9 years in Madrid, Barca only finished under 90 points once and that's when they finished with 87 points. It was awful timing.
How do you think he would have faired if he’d gone to Barca from an individual standpoint?
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