Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Daysleeper]

He can win - against mallorca to be fair. Hasn't done much post Iniesta & Xavi periods of note, sure his numbers are nice but they have always been bubbly in La liga & I don't think players like Ronaldo & Benzema would struggle there either even when ageing.

Still definitely the most gifted player I have ever seen - but I don't know how anyone could argue that Messi should be an easy Mile or two away from C Ronaldo in terms of career achievements or just a career full stop.

Just a shame.

I mean don't get me wrong - you had people here saying Rashford & Lingard weren't Championship quality two weeks ago and now people crying about Messi scoring a hattrick against mallorca and wondering why no one bat's an eye lid? You think Mallorca players are any good? Have La Liga below top 7 been anyway good enough in the last 2 decades?

It's not because that Messi isn't special - he is, but he does go missing.

Does well and scores & set up goals for the team on semi/quarter finals - but again it isn't too hard in an important match to have Messi do the amazing work for 70 mins for Barcelona and everyone wondering what happened for the important last 20 minutes regularly now( vs Liverpool etc).

Pep Guardiola's tactics are starting to get realised as overrated as they ain't working outside Barcelona at Bayern Nor City. Likewise I don't think Messi can be this guarantee like Pep wasn't either outside his comfort zone because he has failed with Argentina, not really push it post Iniesta and Xavi period to anything by himself to take Barcelona back up another level and all he has now is an overwhelming amount of over inflated number come from a league where players routinely shoot with their eyes closes and C Ronaldo is the proof of that.

All C Ronaldo fans will say that Messi is hands down the better more capable footballer - but the fact that there was this man in the same damn era with no where near the technical capabilities of Messi, matching him in everything he did in what should be his era? That's just disappointing on Messi? How is it not?

Ultimately even if football is beautiful - it still is a game - and Ronaldo is a winner and more one than Messi.
No matter what tricks Messi can pull off against betis, mallorca or Boateng won't change that for me.

Ronaldo goes missing too. He was missing in far more finals than he was good in. He’s been missing almost all season serie A.

And when Messi Ronaldo faced each other? Messi has far better matches against him than vice versa.

Ronaldo is going through a steep decline but really he had a 4 year period where he did do well in big CL matches but it’ll feel more like a blip on the radar as time passes as Messi continues to remain relevant as Ronaldo continues to fade.

 

[De Portago]

Barca scored 41 goals in 15 La Liga games this season (Messi scored 12), Juventus scored 26 goals in 15 Serie A games (Ronaldo scored 7).

Its really hard to compare the goals. Its frustrating to watch Juventus at times, they seem too defensive-minded and lack of creativity from midfield, and even when they are a goal down, there's no urgency in their play and they tend to overcomplicate too much passing the ball around. Its like watching LVG philosophy at display with endless circulation of possession at their own half with no real impact made in the final third. I start to wonder did Ronaldo make the right career decision moving to Juventus?

He did not make the right decision, that's quite clear now (and dare I say, was clear at the time). Thing is, he was desperate to leave Real Madrid and he picked the best available alternative. I don't care too much about stats, and personally if you ask me IMO his CL 2018/19 run with Juve was pretty much impressive (and I say this as a detractor). His overall quality of play and involvement was a distinct improvement on Real Madrid post 2013, and he certainly isn't to blame for Juventus being eliminated.

To an extent though, it is more or less his fault that the award itself has regressed to a glorified CL best player award, and stats based one at that. Juventus got kicked out in the 1/4 which means no one particularly cared about his all round quality of play which was IMO the best since god knows when, say Real Madrid 2010/11 season or so. Obviously Serie A is more or less irrelevant unfortunately, as sad as that state is for people who rememer it from it's halcyon days in the late nineties (or eighties, if there's anyone old enough here to remember).

 

[Gehrman]

Honestly what club is/was Messi in his prime supposed to join? He's hard to argue he's past his prime based on he just won his 6th Ballon D'or.

He won his first CL with Barca in 2006, although he went out injured and missed the latter parts. In 2009 they won the treble and spanked us in the CL final. In the Pep years they were arguably the best club side of all time and spanked us again in CL final in 2011. If he was supposed to join the premiere league, who would it be? Messi and Barca destroyed Fergies united, there would be no logical reason to join us. Who else then? City? No history, no romance, same goes for Chelsea. He destroyed Arsenal. Liverpool has only become a top team again in the last year, their glory days were in the 70's and 80's.

Join Bayern in the bundesliga? Why? To prove he could do it in the bundesliga and walk the league with Bayern? Same with Juventus, Seria is a shadow of itself from the 90's and 80's.

Join PSG? Another Plastic club in farmers league.

Seriously who's he supposed to join?

 

[zkap]

It is a misconception that moving to another club necessarily means moving out of your comfort zone. This all depends on what defines your comfort zone. Regarding Ronaldo’s move to Juventus, I can see why he did it. What are the three things you could want as a 33-year old player? Knowing Ronaldo, that’d be wages, guaranteed success and guaranteed status as the focal point of the team. With this criteria, it‘s not a shock he chose Juventus. There are other clubs that could have given Ronaldo a lot of money, but not many could guarantee success. If you choose those that could, the list would read PSG, Juventus, Bayern and City. If you made your name in the Champions League, you’d filter that list to the teams that can win the biggest club competition so at that point you probably eliminate PSG and maybe even Bayern as their team is declining. This leaves Juventus and City. If you apply the guaranteed status criteria here, the choice is Juventus because City are managed by Pep and have a lot of big names. Ronaldo went to the team that will seldom face any real competition over the course of the season, a team that will mould its game to accomodate him, and one where he isn’t sharing the spotlight with anyone.

I am not saying his move to Juventus was a mistake necessarily. Perhaps things got a bit stale for him in Madrid and he decided to take his last chance at a huge contract so he moved to Juventus where the Agnelli family would pay him what he wanted, he‘d be pretty much guaranteed the Serie A every season and Juventus, the team that reached two CL finals in recent history, would be able to provide him the platform for another CL trophy. On the other end, Juventus got a huge name on their roster and improved their front line.

So, what I’m saying is that Ronaldo didn’t take on a new challenge by moving to Juventus because making a transfer isn’t in itself a challenge. Ronaldo went to an exceptionally strong team so I think a reasonable argument could be made that Ronaldo picked his new destination in order to avoid a real challenge. Also, I don’t think Juventus signed Ronaldo to win the CL, I think that was only part of the reason. The way I see it, they signed him to make a killing in the marketing department. It was a move to elevate the image of the club and acquire more financial power by trying to move into that zone occupied by Barça and Madrid, teams that are traditionally untouchable there due to having the biggest names in football on their rosters. Ronaldo is a project for Juventus, one that is supposed to not raise the level of the team, but raise the level of the club as a whole by riding the CR7 brand. Hence the logo redesign and following up on the Ronaldo transfer by signing De Ligt. These are PR signings as much as anything else, Juventus changed direction and I think Ronaldo’s presence will help drive the club in that direction.

I don’t think it was a mistake for Juventus to sign Ronaldo and I don’t necessarily think it was a mistake for Ronaldo to sign for Juventus, as we don’t know how things would have turned out had he signed for some other team. What I do know, though, is that Ronaldo’s move to Italy was anything but a courageous plunge into the unknown. Please don’t try to make this out to be this great new challenge in his career, because if he wanted a challenge, he could have stayed in Madrid to help the team transition post the Modrić-Kroos era, but that would have involved watching Messi win the league with Barça. If he wanted a challenge, he could have gone back to Manchester United and help the team transition back into winning ways, but that would have been too difficult as it‘d involve having to dethrone City and Liverpool. You have to be careful with the “challenges” you choose in your career, or they could turn out to be too much of a challenge.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Absolutely not. But they ain't talked about Goats. Iniesta and Xavi were loyal to Barca but you saw exactly how Spain 100% copied Barcelona tactics whilst Xavi & Iniesta won everything they could winning WC's and more with absolute ease. Messi looked different at Argentina.

Over inflated.

And again their is this assumption that Messi would be the top goalscorer at Serie A. Like how? I couldn't care less about Ronaldo - Qualigueria is a completely different type of player to Messi the same way the Smalling is a completely different type of defender to nearly every other defender in La Liga. Not a single team in Serie A play like Barcelona so why would Messi find it easy to score 20 goals when a team might not even be able to streak 5 passes together in such a physical, defensive and harsh league? Not only do teams not play like Barcelona, the opposition play on a completely different way to every other team in La liga as well. No way that Messi would be doing things at Serie A to La Liga standards, not without that tactics, team mates, style and general management across the league. Just watch a match. Just because Messi can nut meg a serie A defender in the CL after receiving the ball from Arthur or Xavi on a consistent basis doesn't mean that he can do the same thing playing in a different league in a different team in a different city. You really don't need proof of this from other peoples careers do you?

Anyway I totally get why Messi is regarded as GOAT- he is absolutely beautiful to watch but for me part of that and a significant part of that has always come from Barcelona. I personally value the ability to win and kind of push and test your self like Ronaldo has done - before YouTube and as a kid I had to read books about ancient old footballers who went to all these Leagues across the world and absolutely bossed it with ridiculous inflated numbers and kept moving. Ronaldo was the one I only ever got to saw do that with my eyes. Messi kind of was happy living with what he had, doing something I felt was always very easy for him in La liga and playing for the greatest team of the last 2 decades.

Are you drunk? Your posts read like maudlin gibberish.

Was SAF a coward for not proving himself outside of Britain? Pele only played for Santos (bar a retirement season in the MLS). Giggs, Totti, Gerrard?

These people who love Ronaldo have to resort this sort of reasoning because when you watch them on the pitch it's clear who is the better player. This narrative that Ronaldo went to challenge himself is bullshit, he went to a team that had won 7 serie As in a row. How about the narrative that he ran away to a weaker league, to a more dominant team and away from his rival Messi? Neither can be proven to be true or actually matter, because either way Messi is the better player and always has been.

If Messi was outscored by the likes of Quagliarella, Piatek, Immobile and Lukaku it would be proof that Messi could only do it at Barca, yet you demented Ronaldo sycophants use it to say Ronaldo is better. It's insane.

 

[Zehner]

Absolutely not. But they ain't talked about Goats. Iniesta and Xavi were loyal to Barca but you saw exactly how Spain 100% copied Barcelona tactics whilst Xavi & Iniesta won everything they could winning WC's and more with absolute ease. Messi looked different at Argentina.

Over inflated.

And again their is this assumption that Messi would be the top goalscorer at Serie A. Like how? I couldn't care less about Ronaldo - Qualigueria is a completely different type of player to Messi the same way the Smalling is a completely different type of defender to nearly every other defender in La Liga. Not a single team in Serie A play like Barcelona so why would Messi find it easy to score 20 goals when a team might not even be able to streak 5 passes together in such a physical, defensive and harsh league? Not only do teams not play like Barcelona, the opposition play on a completely different way to every other team in La liga as well. No way that Messi would be doing things at Serie A to La Liga standards, not without that tactics, team mates, style and general management across the league. Just watch a match. Just because Messi can nut meg a serie A defender in the CL after receiving the ball from Arthur or Xavi on a consistent basis doesn't mean that he can do the same thing playing in a different league in a different team in a different city. You really don't need proof of this from other peoples careers do you?

Anyway I totally get why Messi is regarded as GOAT- he is absolutely beautiful to watch but for me part of that and a significant part of that has always come from Barcelona. I personally value the ability to win and kind of push and test your self like Ronaldo has done - before YouTube and as a kid I had to read books about ancient old footballers who went to all these Leagues across the world and absolutely bossed it with ridiculous inflated numbers and kept moving. Ronaldo was the one I only ever got to saw do that with my eyes. Messi kind of was happy living with what he had, doing something I felt was always very easy for him in La liga and playing for the greatest team of the last 2 decades.

Jesus, is that supposed to be a summary of the most deluded arguments in the thread?

It always impreses me that the human mind is able to comvince itself of so painfully obvious bullshit, just to prevent cognitive dissonances.

 

[Pocho]

Ronaldo is not even the best player in Juve nor in his country team, he can't be compared with the GOAT. It's humilliating for him.

 

[Bole Top]

those who think Messi has it easy in Barca and everything is perfect for him there would be the first ones who would start saying "well, it's easy to play for City/PSG" if they bought him, becase those are the only clubs who can afford him. in reality, because of the current state of european football, there's very few challenges left. you either go to Milan or Roma and try to catch Juve or you go to Arsenal or United and try to catch City (and now Liverpool). if you sign for Juventus, Bayern, City or PSG, you certainly aren't looking for a challenge. neither Ronaldo, neither Messi would ever play for those "challenging" clubs like Marseille, Roma, Dortmund, Arsenal etc. because: 1. ambition, 2. money, 3. no managers that would lure them to those clubs. it's a silly argument really.

 

[Gehrman]

Ronaldo is not even the best player in Juve nor in his country team, he can't be compared with the GOAT. It's humilliating for him.

He's the best players for Portugal for sure. But I don't think it's fair to constantly sctutinize Ronaldo on his current form regards to whether he's the goat. He's 35. Most great footballers retire by that age or go to China or the MLS. It's on the basis on his entire career that he's a contender.

 

[Gehrman]

those who think Messi has it easy in Barca and everything is perfect for him there would be the first ones who would start saying "well, it's easy to play for City/PSG" if they bought him, becase those are the only clubs who can afford him. in reality, because of the current state of european football, there's very few challenges left. you either go to Milan or Roma and try to catch Juve or you go to Arsenal or United and try to catch City (and now Liverpool). if you sign for Juventus, Bayern, City or PSG, you certainly aren't looking for a challenge. neither Ronaldo, neither Messi would ever play for those "challenging" clubs like Marseille, Roma, Dortmund, Arsenal etc. because: 1. ambition, 2. money, 3. no managers that would lure them to those clubs. it's a silly argument really.

I think the thing with Messi is that he makes scoring 50 goals, dribbling everyone and outpassing look really easy. His critics said he couldn't do it witout Xavi and Iniesta, but this is season is proof that he can.

Eden Hazard only has 1 goal this season and Bale didn't turn into a goal game player either when he joined.

 

[Bebestation]

I think the thing with Messi is that he makes scoring 50 goals, dribbling everyone and outpassing look really easy. His critics said he couldn't do it witout Xavi and Iniesta, but this is season is proof that he can.

Eden Hazard only has 1 goal this season and Bale didn't turn into a goal game player either when he joined.

But Ronaldo did. In Spain and international level and did stuff in other Leagues that Messi never tried (not failed, but didn't try). Yet there is people coming and asking if Totti and Scholes and Gerrard are rubbish - no they are not rubbish but they are not exactly Luis Ronaldo, Zidane, Pirlo who either tried in different Leagues or atleast did well in a scenario where they were offered a good international team to play with. You look at Pirlo for example was fantastic for AC Milan and Juventus & Italy. Zidane was good for Juventus, Madrid and France. Messi is just legendary for Barcelona full stop and there is absolutely no proof that he would be good playing in another league when he couldn't play to 75% of his level for his own country.

Anyway. I'm arguing a battle that I will lose because messi's ability with the ball is the main reason for his hype, not because of the pure numbers - because Ronaldo does the same things and always has. But messi's ability is heavily heavily reliant on Barcelona's team, the tactics as much as they are reliant on Messi alongside things like playing in La liga which has one of the poorest defensive aspects and general quality Leagues below 6 teams you can see.



Look at the 'magic' of Messi and Suarez literally rips open any defence of la liga that is never there - literally like fish. If you think that Messi can score 57 goals in a season playing in a different team in a different league, with different tactics, different players with opposition who defend routinely in a way that don't allow space for such attack - my lord I don't know where to start.

Anyway I'm done. Messi is the better player. I won't lose any sleep over it but Ronaldo has had a better career by trying different Leagues and winning some international cups too.

 

[Pocho]

He's the best players for Portugal for sure. But I don't think it's fair to constantly sctutinize Ronaldo on his current form regards to whether he's the goat. He's 35. Most great footballers retire by that age or go to China or the MLS. It's on the basis on his entire career that he's a contender.

He isn't. Bernardo Silva is far more important for the NT.

 

[Gehrman]

But Ronaldo did. In Spain and international level and did stuff in other Leagues that Messi never tried (not failed, but didn't try). Yet there is people coming and asking if Totti and Scholes and Gerrard are rubbish - no they are not rubbish but they are not exactly Luis Ronaldo, Zidane, Pirlo who either tried in different Leagues or atleast did well in a scenario where they were offered a good international team to play with. You look at Pirlo for example was fantastic for AC Milan and Juventus & Italy. Zidane was good for Juventus, Madrid and France. Messi is just legendary for Barcelona full stop and there is absolutely no proof that he would be good playing in another league when he couldn't play to 75% of his level for his own country.

Anyway. I'm arguing a battle that I will lose because messi's ability with the ball is the main reason for his hype, not because of the pure numbers - because Ronaldo does the same things and always has. But messi's ability is heavily heavily reliant on Barcelona's team, the tactics as much as they are reliant on Messi alongside things like playing in La liga which has one of the poorest defensive aspects and general quality Leagues below 6 teams you can see.



Look at the 'magic' of Messi and Suarez literally rips open any defence of la liga that is never there - literally like fish. If you think that Messi can score 57 goals in a season playing in a different team in a different league, with different tactics, different players with opposition who defend routinely in a way that don't allow space for such attack - my lord I don't know where to start.

Anyway I'm done. Messi is the better player. I won't lose any sleep over it but Ronaldo has had a better career by trying different Leagues and winning some international cups too.

So by your metric with Pirlo, should Rooney have transfered both to Chelsea, City and or Liverpool to prove he could do for other clubs in the PL? Players go where they feel, they have greatest chance to win the biggest trophies, shine individually, play with the best, get paid the most and be the happiest where locations might play a role. Barcelona and Madrid are more attractive locations to live in than Manchester.

Luiz Ronaldo transfered to Inter because they were willing to pay him more than Barcelona. Luiz Ronaldo's club trophy haul in terms of the biggest trophies(top leagues, CL) is 1 La Liga with Real Madrid Galacticos.

Zidane's club trophy haul is 2 Seria A, 1 La Liga and 1 CL.

Do you know that Pele is usually regarded as the goat despite spending most of his prime in Santos and never played in Europe?

Cryuff didnt' win the WC with Holland either, but I don't see people use that as a stick to beat him with. And Argentina in 2014 was 1 Higuain one vs one miss away from winning the WC.

Despite Messi not having won an international trophy with Argentina he's still their all time topscorer and have been by far their best player.

Maybe take a look at this and see how average he's always been for Argentina



And still answer me, which club would it logically make sense for Messi in his prime to move to since 2009? Just name me a single one and give a good reason why any sane player would make that move.

And yes C. Ronaldo proved he could average a goal a game for Real Madrid, because he's one of the greatest players ever and played in one of Madrids greatest ever squads. No one is disputing that C. Ronaldo isn't among the greatest.

 

[Ishdalar]

Absolutely not. But they ain't talked about Goats. Iniesta and Xavi were loyal to Barca but you saw exactly how Spain 100% copied Barcelona tactics whilst Xavi & Iniesta won everything they could winning WC's and more with absolute ease. Messi looked different at Argentina.

Over inflated.

And again their is this assumption that Messi would be the top goalscorer at Serie A. Like how? I couldn't care less about Ronaldo - Qualigueria is a completely different type of player to Messi the same way the Smalling is a completely different type of defender to nearly every other defender in La Liga. Not a single team in Serie A play like Barcelona so why would Messi find it easy to score 20 goals when a team might not even be able to streak 5 passes together in such a physical, defensive and harsh league? Not only do teams not play like Barcelona, the opposition play on a completely different way to every other team in La liga as well. No way that Messi would be doing things at Serie A to La Liga standards, not without that tactics, team mates, style and general management across the league. Just watch a match. Just because Messi can nut meg a serie A defender in the CL after receiving the ball from Arthur or Xavi on a consistent basis doesn't mean that he can do the same thing playing in a different league in a different team in a different city. You really don't need proof of this from other peoples careers do you?

Anyway I totally get why Messi is regarded as GOAT- he is absolutely beautiful to watch but for me part of that and a significant part of that has always come from Barcelona. I personally value the ability to win and kind of push and test your self like Ronaldo has done - before YouTube and as a kid I had to read books about ancient old footballers who went to all these Leagues across the world and absolutely bossed it with ridiculous inflated numbers and kept moving. Ronaldo was the one I only ever got to saw do that with my eyes. Messi kind of was happy living with what he had, doing something I felt was always very easy for him in La liga and playing for the greatest team of the last 2 decades.

I love this absurd argument.

When Xavi and Iniesta went to play with Spain they played together (who has shared that privilege between Argentina and Barcelona with Messi, Mascherano?).

In 2008 they had Puyol there too, and players like Fernando Navarro, Fabregas or Sergio Garcia that shared young teams with them and were nurtured under the same tactical notions that Silva and Xavi excelled at.
In 2010 It's a national team composed of Pique, Puyol Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pedro and Valdes, 7 players from which 5 of them were starters, trained together for 2 seasons at that point and knew each other as far as more than 10 years in the past.
2012 were Pique, Iniesta, Pedro, Xavi, Fabregas, Valdes and Busquets, again all of them training all through the season together, with Alba being close to the way that bunch of world player were supposed to play.

Messi looked different with Argentina because it was a totally different team from the one he was playing on, and asked different things for him, you think comparing the situation Iniesta or Xavi were in with Spain to what Messi had with Argentina is remotely fair?. Xavi, as loved as he is now, was never close to his Barcelona self before Luis Aragones era, to the point that before the 2008 Euro, there was an uproar in Spain because Xavi, who didn't really shine with Spain most of the time and had an awful season with Barcelona, was picked ahead of Guti who probably had the best season of his life. But Luis had a plan, he sticked to it despite media and fan pressure and it sure as hell paid off.

What could happen with the England NT if Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard, Rio, Terrt and Rooney were playing for the same team and they could seamlessly fit seasons of practices into a World Cup run?. That seems like overkill, but was almost literally what happened with Spain between 2008 and 2012, comparing that situation to a guy that had to play with guys like Palermo or Roque Meza is one of the biggest mental gymnastic I've seen in a while. We could be talking about a whole different thing even if Agüero got to play with Messi like Suarez did for years.

I personally value the ability to win and kind of push and test your self like Ronaldo has done - before YouTube and as a kid I had to read books about ancient old footballers who went to all these Leagues across the world and absolutely bossed it with ridiculous inflated numbers and kept moving. Ronaldo was the one I only ever got to saw do that with my eyes.

Who were those heroes? if you look at the list of players who scored more than 500 goals you get

Bican (fair shout, but 395 of his 607 goals cam from 11 years at Slavia)
Romario
Pele (Santos legend)
Muller (Bayern legend)
Ferenc Deak (that your idol?)
Uwe Seeler (Hamburger one-club man)
Tulio
Some guy who retired in 1935 and has like 1300+ goals on wikipedia
Wilimowski (almost the same as above)
Eusebio (Benfica legend)
McGrory (Celtic)
Binder (Rapid Wien)
Peyroteo (Sporting)
Ibrahimovic
Hugo Sanchez
Fritz Walter (Kaiserlautern)
Zico (basically all from Flamengo)
Di Stefano (more than half his goals for Real Madrid)
Krankl
Nordahl (bunch of nordic teams, mostly Milan)
Roberto Dinamite (Vasco)
Jimmy Greaves (Chelsea and Tottenham)
Bene (one-club man)

Almost all of them have something in common, either they played and scored goals for 2 big teams in the same league, or scored a bunch in obscure, foreign leagues in the times the sport was going pro, or they where one-club man.

But no other player had the (earned) privilege Ronaldo had, a healthy and long career, playing for the 3 biggest teams on the best 3 leagues of Europe, Ibra comes close having played for Barcelona, Inter, Milan, Juve and United, but he was older when he reached his peak and never really settled in a team before PSG.

So, you're saying Ronaldo has more merit because he went the Anelka path of playing in different teams?. No player bossed different top leagues in the world before our era, Anelka, Romario and Ibra for example are clear examples of why most legends are associated with a single team, if you're a relatively normal person you want to spend your career in a place, and once you're loved there you want to stay, instead of being constantly picking up fights against your club.

You might think that Anelka had a more challenging career than, say, Batistuta for "pushing himself" into new leagues, but I think to most people Batistuta had the better career from both of them.

 

[Gehrman]

I love this absurd argument.

When Xavi and Iniesta went to play with Spain they played together (who has shared that privilege between Argentina and Barcelona with Messi, Mascherano?).

In 2008 they had Puyol there too, and players like Fernando Navarro, Fabregas or Sergio Garcia that shared young teams with them and were nurtured under the same tactical notions that Silva and Xavi excelled at.
In 2010 It's a national team composed of Pique, Puyol Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pedro and Valdes, 7 players from which 5 of them were starters, trained together for 2 seasons at that point and knew each other as far as more than 10 years in the past.
2012 were Pique, Iniesta, Pedro, Xavi, Fabregas, Valdes and Busquets, again all of them training all through the season together, with Alba being close to the way that bunch of world player were supposed to play.

Messi looked different with Argentina because it was a totally different team from the one he was playing on, and asked different things for him, you think comparing the situation Iniesta or Xavi were in with Spain to what Messi had with Argentina is remotely fair?. Xavi, as loved as he is now, was never close to his Barcelona self before Luis Aragones era, to the point that before the 2008 Euro, there was an uproar in Spain because Xavi, who didn't really shine with Spain most of the time and had an awful season with Barcelona, was picked ahead of Guti who probably had the best season of his life. But Luis had a plan, he sticked to it despite media and fan pressure and it sure as hell paid off.

What could happen with the England NT if Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard, Rio, Terrt and Rooney were playing for the same team and they could seamlessly fit seasons of practices into a World Cup run?. That seems like overkill, but was almost literally what happened with Spain between 2008 and 2012, comparing that situation to a guy that had to play with guys like Palermo or Roque Meza is one of the biggest mental gymnastic I've seen in a while. We could be talking about a whole different thing even if Agüero got to play with Messi like Suarez did for years.



Who were those heroes? if you look at the list of players who scored more than 500 goals you get

Bican (fair shout, but 395 of his 607 goals cam from 11 years at Slavia)
Romario
Pele (Santos legend)
Muller (Bayern legend)
Ferenc Deak (that your idol?)
Uwe Seeler (Hamburger one-club man)
Tulio
Some guy who retired in 1935 and has like 1300+ goals on wikipedia
Wilimowski (almost the same as above)
Eusebio (Benfica legend)
McGrory (Celtic)
Binder (Rapid Wien)
Peyroteo (Sporting)
Ibrahimovic
Hugo Sanchez
Fritz Walter (Kaiserlautern)
Zico (basically all from Flamengo)
Di Stefano (more than half his goals for Real Madrid)
Krankl
Nordahl (bunch of nordic teams, mostly Milan)
Roberto Dinamite (Vasco)
Jimmy Greaves (Chelsea and Tottenham)
Bene (one-club man)

Almost all of them have something in common, either they played and scored goals for 2 big teams in the same league, or scored a bunch in obscure, foreign leagues in the times the sport was going pro, or they where one-club man.

But no other player had the (earned) privilege Ronaldo had, a healthy and long career, playing for the 3 biggest teams on the best 3 leagues of Europe, Ibra comes close having played for Barcelona, Inter, Milan, Juve and United, but he was older when he reached his peak and never really settled in a team before PSG.

So, you're saying Ronaldo has more merit because he went the Anelka path of playing in different teams?. No player bossed different top leagues in the world before our era, Anelka, Romario and Ibra for example are clear examples of why most legends are associated with a single team, if you're a relatively normal person you want to spend your career in a place, and once you're loved there you want to stay, instead of being constantly picking up fights against your club.

You might think that Anelka had a more challenging career than, say, Batistuta for "pushing himself" into new leagues, but I think to most people Batistuta had the better career from both of them.

With regards to Xavi and Iniesta winning 2 euros and a WC, you also have to factor in that was Spain's golden generation and they were managed by the excatly right manager in Del Bosque. Those teams had Casillas, Puyol, Pique, Ramos, Alba, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Xabi Alonso, Pedro, Torres, David Villa, Mata, Fabregas, David Silva. Their quality all around the pitch was insane and most of their stars where in their prime years.

 

[Gehrman]

But Ronaldo did. In Spain and international level and did stuff in other Leagues that Messi never tried (not failed, but didn't try). Yet there is people coming and asking if Totti and Scholes and Gerrard are rubbish - no they are not rubbish but they are not exactly Luis Ronaldo, Zidane, Pirlo who either tried in different Leagues or atleast did well in a scenario where they were offered a good international team to play with. You look at Pirlo for example was fantastic for AC Milan and Juventus & Italy. Zidane was good for Juventus, Madrid and France. Messi is just legendary for Barcelona full stop and there is absolutely no proof that he would be good playing in another league when he couldn't play to 75% of his level for his own country.

Anyway. I'm arguing a battle that I will lose because messi's ability with the ball is the main reason for his hype, not because of the pure numbers - because Ronaldo does the same things and always has. But messi's ability is heavily heavily reliant on Barcelona's team, the tactics as much as they are reliant on Messi alongside things like playing in La liga which has one of the poorest defensive aspects and general quality Leagues below 6 teams you can see.



Look at the 'magic' of Messi and Suarez literally rips open any defence of la liga that is never there - literally like fish. If you think that Messi can score 57 goals in a season playing in a different team in a different league, with different tactics, different players with opposition who defend routinely in a way that don't allow space for such attack - my lord I don't know where to start.

Anyway I'm done. Messi is the better player. I won't lose any sleep over it but Ronaldo has had a better career by trying different Leagues and winning some international cups too.

But yeah, I'm not sure what you're trying to get with the Messi-Suarez partnership. Great players excell playing with other great players. That's completely logical. But Suarez was pretty average last season, but that didn't stop Messi from having a great season.


But do I think Messi could shine invidually the way he does if he played for Stoke and not Barcelona. No I don't think he could. I'm pretty sure that peak Messi would be the best player in team in whichever clubhe joined.

 

[Bebestation]

How did he do today?



Maybe age is catching up with him to? Or maybe he did good today like he always does and everyone else does rubbish (as always is the case)?

La Liga has always been a poor league with the best players spread across a very few clubs at the top.

An overinflated amount of goals from that league that would not happen from other Leagues and that is just pure obvious.

Anyway Barcelona fans will blame the manager today whilst talking about how Ronaldo's legs and thighs have begun to fry and age - never bringing sarri in to the equation or the defensive league or unnecessarily defensive team that Juventus can be whilst playing football.

Just don't like when this is only bumped on the good days against Astana or Mallora or Betis or Getafe - where he scores 3 goals and Barcelona scores 7-0

 

[Gehrman]

How did he do today?



Maybe age is catching up with him to? Or maybe he did good today like he always does and everyone else does rubbish (as always is the case)?

La Liga has always been a poor league with the best players spread across a very few clubs at the top.

An overinflated amount of goals from that league that would not happen from other Leagues and that is just pure obvious.

Anyway Barcelona fans will blame the manager today whilst talking about how Ronaldo's legs and thighs have begun to fry and age - never bringing sarri in to the equation or the defensive league or unnecessarily defensive team that Juventus can be whilst playing football.

Just don't like when this is only bumped on the good days against Astana or Mallora or Betis or Getafe - where he scores 3 goals and Barcelona scores 7-0

Obvoiusly Ronaldo won 9/9
la ligas at madrid.

 

[GifLord]

How did he do today?



Maybe age is catching up with him to? Or maybe he did good today like he always does and everyone else does rubbish (as always is the case)?

La Liga has always been a poor league with the best players spread across a very few clubs at the top.

An overinflated amount of goals from that league that would not happen from other Leagues and that is just pure obvious.

Anyway Barcelona fans will blame the manager today whilst talking about how Ronaldo's legs and thighs have begun to fry and age - never bringing sarri in to the equation or the defensive league or unnecessarily defensive team that Juventus can be whilst playing football.

Just don't like when this is only bumped on the good days against Astana or Mallora or Betis or Getafe - where he scores 3 goals and Barcelona scores 7-0

And yet CR fanboys keep mentioning those goals against Lithuania

 

[Gehrman]

How did he do today?



Maybe age is catching up with him to? Or maybe he did good today like he always does and everyone else does rubbish (as always is the case)?

La Liga has always been a poor league with the best players spread across a very few clubs at the top.

An overinflated amount of goals from that league that would not happen from other Leagues and that is just pure obvious.

Anyway Barcelona fans will blame the manager today whilst talking about how Ronaldo's legs and thighs have begun to fry and age - never bringing sarri in to the equation or the defensive league or unnecessarily defensive team that Juventus can be whilst playing football.

Just don't like when this is only bumped on the good days against Astana or Mallora or Betis or Getafe - where he scores 3 goals and Barcelona scores 7-0

If you saw or read a summary of the match, you'd see that Barca defense gifted Real Sociadad 2 goals and Messi set up Suarez goal. Are we going to bump this thread everytime messi and ronaldo dont score a goal or barca and juve dont win a match?

 

[RedRonaldo]

I know this is Messi vs Ronaldo thread, but In comparison with other top scorers this season (in all competitions):

1. Lewandowski: 18 league goals, 28 goals for club, 32 goals in all competitions
2. Kane: 9 league goals, 15 goals for club, 25 goals in all competitions
3. Ronaldo: 9 league goals, 11 goals for club, 22 goals in all competitions
4. Immobile: 17 league goals. 19 goals for club, 22 goals in all competitions
5. Timo Werner: 16 league goals, 19 goals for club, 22 goals in all competitions
6. Messi: 12 league goals, 14 goals for club, 16 goals in all competitions
7. Vardy: 16 league goals, 16 goals for club, 16 goals in all competitions
8. Rashford: 10 league goals, 13 goals for club, 16 goals in all competitions
9. Lukaku: 10 league goals, 12 goals for club, 16 goals in all competitions
10. Benzema: 11 league goals, 15 goals for club, 15 goals in all competitions
11. Abraham: 11 league goals, 13 goals for club, 14 goals in all competitions
12. Salah: 9 league goals, 13 goals for club, 13 goals in all competitions
13. Mbappe: 7 league goals, 13 goals for club, 13 goals in all competitions
14. Suarez: 9 league goals, 12 goals for club, 13 goals in all competitions

Lewandowski is in insane form and is clearly head and shoulder above everyone else. Kane is in great form too, Ronaldo even in "poor" early season form still manage to keep up among the top. Messi has tons of assists apart form goals too and I'd expect him to be among the top again by end of season. There are some exciting young players in the list too: ie Timo Werner, Rashford, Abraham, and of course Mbappe.

 

[mdvmia]

Messi
goals 14
assists 9
minutes played 1291

Ronaldo
goals 11
assists 1
minutes played 1666

 

[VBI]

"La Liga has always been a poor league"

The UEFA league co-efficient rankings for the past 15 years, the respective strength of the national teams over that time, the collection of European trophies would suggest literally the exact opposite.

 

[Gehrman]

"La Liga has always been a poor league"

The UEFA league co-efficient rankings for the past 15 years, the respective strength of the national teams over that time, the collection of European trophies would suggest literally the exact opposite.

It's generally been rated the most competive or 2nd most competetive for the last 15 years. Seria A is around nr 4.

 

[KirkDuyt]

"La Liga has always been a poor league"

The UEFA league co-efficient rankings for the past 15 years, the respective strength of the national teams over that time, the collection of European trophies would suggest literally the exact opposite.

Co-efficient is cool, but it only measures the strength of the top clubs. The bottom half doesnt contribute to that. La Liga isnt poor, but the fact that even the minnows try to play football, gives clubs like Real and Barca an easier time to score goals.

The national team means even less. Belgium has been the top ranked country for years and their league is worse than ours.

 

[Mark_Barca]

"La Liga has always been a poor league"

The UEFA league co-efficient rankings for the past 15 years, the respective strength of the national teams over that time, the collection of European trophies would suggest literally the exact opposite.

These Ronaldo fanboys and Messi haters have a habit of lying about La Liga. That being said its not solely Ronaldo fans, EPL fanboys claim this myth.

I remember the whole no team in England would get 100 points was the argument... blah blah and then City did it and the goalposts were changed again!

2 team league was another, yet EPL is a one team league again.

 

[VBI]

In La Liga goal difference means nothing at the end of the season, it's about head to head, so a small team getting beat 3-0 at Madrid or Barca have no reason not to open up and try to score themselves, whereas in England for example goal difference comes before head to head so shutting up shop and accepting a 3-0 defeat at Anfield makes a touch more sense, as opposed to a 5-0 defeat. To a Osasuna type club, 3-0 and 6-0 away to a big team is effectively the same. Belgium are better now, but for the vast chunk of the past 15 years either Spain or Germany would be considered the best NT in Europe. Not England or Italy, the comparable nations in this context.

Point is, if we can't accept any actual empirical evidence, then it's entirely about opinion and nothing else. So we might as well just sit back and watch.

 

[trims]

How did he do today?



Maybe age is catching up with him to? Or maybe he did good today like he always does and everyone else does rubbish (as always is the case)?

La Liga has always been a poor league with the best players spread across a very few clubs at the top.

An overinflated amount of goals from that league that would not happen from other Leagues and that is just pure obvious.

He did assist Suarez for a tap in when he was through one on one.

Maybe he should prove himself in England where he scored 26 goals in 34 games in the Champions league against the leagues top 4.

Messi has trashed Arsenal, Chelsea, Man utd, Liverpool, Man City, and Tottenham so I doubt he'll be able to put up the same numbers when he's faced with the mighty Norwich and Southampton.

Just don't like when this is only bumped on the good days against Astana or Mallora or Betis or Getafe - where he scores 3 goals and Barcelona scores 7-0

True, should've also been bumped when he scored a vital winner against Atletico Madrid and when he tore Dortmund apart.

 

[17Larsson]

What is the story with international goals being included when discussing players totals?

Is this a genuine new thing that I've missed or is it just being used recently by people trying to boost the stats of whichever player is their favourite?

 

[Ishdalar]

In La Liga goal difference means nothing at the end of the season, it's about head to head, so a small team getting beat 3-0 at Madrid or Barca have no reason not to open up and try to score themselves, whereas in England for example goal difference comes before head to head so shutting up shop and accepting a 3-0 defeat at Anfield makes a touch more sense, as opposed to a 5-0 defeat. To a Osasuna type club, 3-0 and 6-0 away to a big team is effectively the same. Belgium are better now, but for the vast chunk of the past 15 years either Spain or Germany would be considered the best NT in Europe. Not England or Italy, the comparable nations in this context.

Point is, if we can't accept any actual empirical evidence, then it's entirely about opinion and nothing else. So we might as well just sit back and watch.

Always the same arguments, even without goal difference our players are professional, a Levante defender is not so weak willed that once they get scored 2 times on they will stop trying their best to hold Barcelona or Madrid, mostly because their spot is on the line every week, and those kind of games are the best chance a lot of players have to give a great impression an earn a move elsewhere. No player wants to be in the pitch thinking "I don't care if they put 2 or 20 goals on me".

Guardiola took City past 100 goals without Messi or Cristiano, both Liverpool and City are outscoring Barcelona/Real Madrid this season, and Liverpool pushed close to 100 goals just past season, it was never about the level of our mid/low table teams, they're fine as they've shown time and time again in the Europa League, it was two juggernauts with a galore of world class players, great managers and the two best goalscorers ever what pushed those numbers.

Or are we going to say that City and Liverpool have strikers equal to Leo and Cristiano? they don't even have a goalscorer as good as Suarez in the season he scored 59 goals.

 

[Bebestation]

He did assist Suarez for a tap in when he was through one on one.

Maybe he should prove himself in England where he scored 26 goals in 34 games in the Champions league against the leagues top 4.

Messi has trashed Arsenal, Chelsea, Man utd, Liverpool, Man City, and Tottenham so I doubt he'll be able to put up the same numbers when he's faced with the mighty Norwich and Southampton.



True, should've also been bumped when he scored a vital winner against Atletico Madrid and when he tore Dortmund apart.

Aye after all Guardiola is the best manager of all time now. Did the best thing in the world whilst at Barcelona in his home town & his own league but at other clubs & Leagues is falling just 1-2% short - not the biggest percentage but a significant percentage none the less.

Suddenly people are wondering if Pep is deserving of the best of all time manager he got before when he can't replicate this for other clubs and other Leagues But but it should be different for players right? Right?

Messi can do it for Barcelona because that sh*te is man made for him & is easy for him - there's a difference between scoring against United or Liverpool when you have Xavi & Iniesta running circles around Scholes when playing for Barcelona and Messi doing it playing for Man City or Liverpool with Henderson or Milner in midfield or otamendi as your defender.

Messi if he wins the world Cup - I will shut up and admit it that he is the GOAT because then he doesn't just become a jack of Barcelona - until then, I know who is the GOAT for me.

If a manager had Ronaldo's career vs Messi's career then I know who would be regarded the Winner - because ultimately its a winner and a winner in more competition in more Leagues.

 

[Gehrman]

Aye after all Guardiola is the best manager of all time now. Did the best thing in the world whilst at Barcelona in his home town & his own league but at other clubs & Leagues is falling just 1-2% short - not the biggest percentage but a significant percentage none the less.

Suddenly people are wondering if Pep is deserving of the best of all time manager he got before when he can't replicate this for other clubs and other Leagues But but it should be different for players right? Right?

Messi can do it for Barcelona because that sh*te is man made for him & is easy for him - there's a difference between scoring against United or Liverpool when you have Xavi & Iniesta running circles around Scholes when playing for Barcelona and Messi doing it playing for Man City or Liverpool with Henderson or Milner in midfield or otamendi as your defender.

Messi if he wins the world Cup - I will shut up and admit it that he is the GOAT because then he doesn't just become a jack of Barcelona - until then, I know who is the GOAT for me.

If a manager had Ronaldo's career vs Messi's career then I know who would be regarded the Winner - because ultimately its a winner and a winner in more competition in more Leagues.

So if Higauin had scored his 1 vs 1 in the 2014 WC final, you would admit that Messi is the goat.

Anyway, I agree with you. Messi should take a paycut, go to less attractive clubs, play with shittier teammates move to a less attractive city to prove his internet doubters wrong.

 

[Gehrman]

It's easy to score a goal vs Real Madrid in the CL semifinal when you have team mates like Busquets assisting you.

 

[Bokito]

...

And still answer me, which club would it logically make sense for Messi in his prime to move to since 2009? Just name me a single one and give a good reason why any sane player would make that move.

...

He should've gone to Stoke, to win the PL / CL with them - just to prove a point to some random people on an internet forum...

 

[kidbob]

It's easy to score a goal vs Real Madrid in the CL semifinal when you have team mates like Busquets assisting you.

That pass was perfectly weighted to be fair!

 

[2mufc0]

Outside the top 5/6 teams La Liga is very poor and often get pummelled by the bigger teams. Both Messi and Ronaldo have benifted from this and padded their goal stats, nothing wrong with it but people should be able to acknowledge it.

 

[fps]

I know this is Messi vs Ronaldo thread, but In comparison with other top scorers this season (in all competitions):

1. Lewandowski: 18 league goals, 28 goals for club, 32 goals in all competitions
2. Kane: 9 league goals, 15 goals for club, 25 goals in all competitions
3. Ronaldo: 9 league goals, 11 goals for club, 22 goals in all competitions
4. Immobile: 17 league goals. 19 goals for club, 22 goals in all competitions
5. Timo Werner: 16 league goals, 19 goals for club, 22 goals in all competitions
6. Messi: 12 league goals, 14 goals for club, 16 goals in all competitions
7. Vardy: 16 league goals, 16 goals for club, 16 goals in all competitions
8. Rashford: 10 league goals, 13 goals for club, 16 goals in all competitions
9. Lukaku: 10 league goals, 12 goals for club, 16 goals in all competitions
10. Benzema: 11 league goals, 15 goals for club, 15 goals in all competitions
11. Abraham: 11 league goals, 13 goals for club, 14 goals in all competitions
12. Salah: 9 league goals, 13 goals for club, 13 goals in all competitions
13. Mbappe: 7 league goals, 13 goals for club, 13 goals in all competitions
14. Suarez: 9 league goals, 12 goals for club, 13 goals in all competitions

Lewandowski is in insane form and is clearly head and shoulder above everyone else. Kane is in great form too, Ronaldo even in "poor" early season form still manage to keep up among the top. Messi has tons of assists apart form goals too and I'd expect him to be among the top again by end of season. There are some exciting young players in the list too: ie Timo Werner, Rashford, Abraham, and of course Mbappe.

Don’t include internationals, no one cares

 

[fps]

What is the story with international goals being included when discussing players totals?

Is this a genuine new thing that I've missed or is it just being used recently by people trying to boost the stats of whichever player is their favourite?

It’s a load of misleading nonsense from a very small number of people trying to push agendas instead of discuss things along generally understood lines.

 

[kidbob]

Outside the top 5/6 teams La Liga is very poor and often get pummelled by the bigger teams. Both Messi and Ronaldo have benifted from this and padded their goal stats, nothing wrong with it but people should be able to acknowledge it.

However very few players have ever been able to dibble past 3+ players consistently, to an almost stupid level, in the professional game regardless of the level of the other team.

 

[trims]

Aye after all Guardiola is the best manager of all time now. Did the best thing in the world whilst at Barcelona in his home town & his own league but at other clubs & Leagues is falling just 1-2% short - not the biggest percentage but a significant percentage none the less.

Suddenly people are wondering if Pep is deserving of the best of all time manager he got before when he can't replicate this for other clubs and other Leagues But but it should be different for players right? Right?

Messi can do it for Barcelona because that sh*te is man made for him & is easy for him - there's a difference between scoring against United or Liverpool when you have Xavi & Iniesta running circles around Scholes when playing for Barcelona and Messi doing it playing for Man City or Liverpool with Henderson or Milner in midfield or otamendi as your defender.

Messi if he wins the world Cup - I will shut up and admit it that he is the GOAT because then he doesn't just become a jack of Barcelona - until then, I know who is the GOAT for me.

If a manager had Ronaldo's career vs Messi's career then I know who would be regarded the Winner - because ultimately its a winner and a winner in more competition in more Leagues.

But he did score and put in world class performances against both Man utd and Liverpool without Xavi and Iniesta last season. You either don't know what you're talking about or you're clearly trolling.

Xavi hasn't played for Barca since 2015 and was a only part player that season (started only 1 CL game) where they won the treble. Messi's still been going strong since then and still beat your hero to the Pichichi in 16/17 and 17/18.

I could use your mental gymnastics to point out the fact that Ronaldo has never won the CL without Sir Alex or Modric and use that as a stick to beat him with.