I know, just simply stated he has some catching up to do. Injuries will also play a big part to determine whether he could catch up or not.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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I know, just simply stated he has some catching up to do. Injuries will also play a big part to determine whether he could catch up or not.
Because it's patently obvious.
So you agree he's more talented. Just to be clear, what are these other boxes?
Agreed, and I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise.
Messi's ability is in that realm and for many it's higher.
I don't dismiss anything; I know how good Ronaldo is - I've watched most of his matches. And if Ronaldo's creativity and all round contribution to play was as encompassing as Messi's then I'd agree with you 100%. But it isn't. I can still see the case for him though.
* I'd use the word greater as opposed to better.
but where was this against Ajax last year? Ajax were the big under dogs
Greater was the word I was looking for! but I am sidetracked writing a criminal justice paper atm.
As for the other boxes as I stated before is the intangibles and that X factor he and others GOAT players in other sports possess.
Ronaldo and Messi are both on the Mount Rushmore of football alas if one is on there so is the other by default as they have been at a head to head and many times at a standstill in there careers.
Finish that paper!
I know what you mean. Messi's X factor is what he does with the ball though.
Perhaps. I certainly don't dismiss it out of hand.
My major problem with it however is this notion that Ronaldo is possibly the greatest player who ever lived. That just doesn't pass the gut instinct test at all.
He scored his teams only goals. Furthermore I am not saying both have to do it all the time as it is not possible in s team Sport but Ronaldo has done it on many many occasions and no one can question that. Ajax were the cinderella team and were deserved finalists if not for a monumental collapse. Ronaldo scored all of Juve goals in the knockout stage.
Lastly with what happened to Messi. It happens one time you can say ok freak accident blah blah and I could maybe even buy that....but for it too happen TWICE and BACK to BACK it is clear as day he just does not "have it" that mentality that same drive...the same way he showed it after missing the penalty vs Chile and then QUITTING on his team to then turn around and come back a few months later. These things all show his weak mentality and there is no argument to say otherwise. Ronaldo relishes those moments. Messi does not.
Lukaku has never won anything notable though, Drogba has won a lot more (2 times African player of year, 5 times finish top 10 in Ballon D’or, 4 league titles, 1 CL).
So no, Lukaku isn’t greater than Drogba.
When it comes to the 4 they all have a fair case for it thus IMO it comes down to personal choice.Finish that paper!
I know what you mean. Messi's X factor is what he does with the ball though.
Perhaps. I certainly don't dismiss it out of hand.
My major problem with it however is this notion that Ronaldo is possibly the greatest player who ever lived, and that just doesn't pass the gut instinct test at all.
As for this paper it is kicking my ass and I am stuck. It is a Motion to suppress paper on the Freddie Grey case
If Ronaldo's in this Mount Rushmore 4 then he's really lacking in the talent department compared to other 3.
As for this paper it is kicking my ass and I am stuck. It is a Motion to suppress paper on the Freddie Grey case
There's far too many American references in this thread.
Ya I mean at this point I have written everything I possibly could and am just trying to complete the page requirement set by my professor. The issue is now I feel like I just keep repeating the same things but in different formats. My day gets more fun though because after this paper I have to do a paper on the broken windows theory.
This in turn has me looking up different nooses and a sturdy chair as we speak
Recent match against Inter last month, he was motm and has highest rating in WhoScored, without scoring a goal.
Thing is, he has scored so many goals (average more than a goal per game in Real) so it’s usually the case of him scoring goals with great performances, rather than not scoring with great performances. I am sure there are lot more great performance without scoring during his Man Utd years, simply because he has scored less goals at that time.
Really? Feels like it's 95% of pundits who say Messi, I hear Ronaldo has great work etic but hardly ever that he is the GOAT like Messi is.
This footwork by Messi today is sublime:
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/dy9803/messis_quick_footwork/
Destroying a team Ronaldo failed against.
Christ that's awesome. That why you can't judge a player solely on goals.
You don't think team mates at Real Madrid like Modric, Kroos, Kaka, Xabi Alonso, Ôzil in his prime, Di Maria, Bale, James, Isco, Ascencio, Marcelo and Di Maria were good enough to give Ronaldo the service he needed?
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Of course they were good enough. But just imagine it was Ronaldo on the LW for Guardiola instead of David Villa & it was Xavi, Iniesta making them still flow never mind Alves, Alba etc . I think he'd personally get much more than he did at Madrid.
Then I imagine Messi with Ozil, Kaka, Bale, Modric, Kroos, xabi Alonso, James Rodriguez managed by Jose, Zidane, benitez, Ancelotti in patches etc & I think Messi would still be the most technically gifted player ever in the history of the sport but his numbers would be slightly skewed.
Messi got 51 goals last season with worse teammates and a worse manager than those and he was still a bit below his peak level.
United fans were fortunate enough to witness Ronaldo for 6 years. He was an integral part of one of our greatest teams ever. Yet the vast majority of United fans will say Messi is the better/more memorable player.
In generally don't think Messi has played in better teams at Barcalona than Ronaldo has at Madric when they went full galactico since they bought him and I think Ronaldo has had better managers as well. Guardiola is only great manager to have managed Messi in his career imo. This current Barca look good on paper, but they are mediocre without Messi and he still nearly dragged them to a treble and hit over over 50 goals while playing as a nr 10.
Stupid comparison because Drogba was a better big game player then Lukaku, and in this debate, the better big game player is Ronaldo.
Why can't people just allow others to have their opinions?
Its okay to say one or other, give your reasons and move on.
It's a pointless roundabout exercise in trying to convince others to change their minds.
And anyway Jesse Lingard pisses over them both
Its okay to say one or other, give your reasons and move on.
It's a pointless roundabout exercise in trying to convince others to change their minds.
And anyway Jesse Lingard pisses over them both
Again another false narrative being pushed that Messi is a choker but the fact is Messi has put in world class performances in the 3 champions league finals he’s played in. Bar the final against Juventus, Ronaldo has been largely invisible in the finals he’s played in and had to rely on Bale’s and Ramos’s drive to win the CL for him in 2014, 2016 and 2018. Even in 2008 you could argue he chocked on the penalty spot and had to rely on a slip from Terry.
When Messi and Ronaldo went head to head in 2009 and the semis in 2011 Messi showed up while Ronaldo had no influence.
It’s says a lot that most of the people ardently making a case for Ronaldo are Portuguese. It is understandable as they should be proud of him but it’s no doubt that Messi is the best.
There’s a reason why Maradona and Cruyff are thought to be in higher tier than some one like Gerd Muller who bagged loads of goals. They were magicians who did things with the ball that evoked emotions out of people. The things Messi does with the ball week in week out are unreal. That added to the fact that he’s out scored Ronaldo at club level and will most likely out score him overall will always make neutrals regard Messi higher.
When Messi and Ronaldo went head to head in 2009 and the semis in 2011 Messi showed up while Ronaldo had no influence.
It’s says a lot that most of the people ardently making a case for Ronaldo are Portuguese. It is understandable as they should be proud of him but it’s no doubt that Messi is the best.
There’s a reason why Maradona and Cruyff are thought to be in higher tier than some one like Gerd Muller who bagged loads of goals. They were magicians who did things with the ball that evoked emotions out of people. The things Messi does with the ball week in week out are unreal. That added to the fact that he’s out scored Ronaldo at club level and will most likely out score him overall will always make neutrals regard Messi higher.
Here Here! (Messi is better though)Why can't people just allow others to have their opinions?
Its okay to say one or other, give your reasons and move on.
It's a pointless roundabout exercise in trying to convince others to change their minds.
And anyway Jesse Lingard pisses over them both
It's more about the insane obsession with stats. Everytime Ronaldo scores a goal he's the goat and Messi fans can be the same way. If you just looked at lukkakus goal scoring stats considering the teams he's played for, you'd think he's a great footballer, but nobody who actually watches him play thinks that. Actually someone like Drogba wasn't the prolific compared to someone like Kane, but I can remember Vidic giving an interview and he was asked what PL striker who was most difficult to defend against and he said it was Drogpa.
Ronaldo is a phenomenal footballer and far more complete than someone like Gerd Muller and easily one of best of all time, It's just that Pele, Maradonna, Messi, Cryuff etc apart from being great goalscorers are also the best passers, dribblers and most gifted of all time. Ronaldo's genius in not quite up there, however he is probably the most athlethic footballer ever, the best header and most mentally driven.
The top 10 dribblers since Opta records began:
Ronaldo has a lot of goals, I guess. Still a worse ratio than Messi.
- Lionel Messi – 1,880 take-ons completed (57.2%)
- Eden Hazard – 1,220 take-ons completed (57.1%)
- Franck Ribery – 939 take-ons completed (47.9%)
- Sergio Aguero – 832 take-ons completed (46.6%)
- Cristiano Ronaldo – 816 take-ons completed (44%)
Ronaldo has a lot of goals, I guess. Still a worse ratio than Messi.
The older, more successful version of Ronaldo who won 4 CL (from 29 to 34 years old, 14-19) in the past 6 years may not be as gifted as peak Pele, Maradona, Messi and Cruyff, but the younger physical peak version of Ronaldo (from 21 to 28 years old, 06-13), is also great goalscorer, crosser, dribbler, and one of the most gifted in the era.
Messi doesn't need to have the mental strength of Ronaldo. In all fairness Ronaldo has got to where he is by pure grit and determination. Messi is a natural. The only comparison I could think of between the 2 would be Federer/ Nadal. Nadal is a monster but when the 2 play you can see the difference. Nadal gives 100% of pure mental toughness every match whereas Federer could go out and play, have a gin and tonic between sets and still produce breathtaking performances running on 80%. For me natural ability will always surpass hard work if you know how to use it right which is why I'd have Messi as my GOAT.
"I guess" Thats just wrong. Ronaldo has a better goal scoring ratio then Messi in every single category.
National team:
Ronaldo 0,58
Messi 0,50
Champions League 09-18
Ronaldo 1,04
Messi 0,90
La Liga 09-18 All time since Messi debuted vs since Ronaldo joined in 09
Ronaldo 1,07
Messi 1,06
While Ronaldo played for Madrid All Comps:
Ronaldo 1,03
Messi 0,99
Champions league knockouts and Finals:
Ronaldo 0,82
Messi 0,68
Ronaldo vs Messi in La Liga Since Ronaldo joined:
Ronaldo 1,07
Messi 0,93
So as you see Ronaldo is clearly the better scorer and by good Margin since 09/Madrid
No here are the goal numbers for club and country:
Ronaldo - 706 in 980 apps, 0.72 ratio.
Messi - 682 in 836, 0.86 ratio.
What are you talking about? These are all the official goals.
How does that work considering messis not that far off ronaldos overall with 2 years in hand ?
In addition to that, how many freekicks and penalties had messi passed on to teammates over the years, while Ronaldo hogged on to 99% of them? How about goals to shots ratio? I bet my bottom dollar that Messi has a far superior goals to shots ratio than Ronaldo
If you have followed Ronaldo career from the beginning, Ronaldo spend around 5 years (over 250 games) playing as traditional winger in midfield of 442 (to replace Beckham). Once he was converted as wing forward (in 433), I think he has the best goalscoring ratio out there.
For example, he has scored 450 goals in 438 games at Madrid in 9 years playing as wing forward.
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Then how did messi win 5 la liga top scorers to 3 in that time.
Its still his total tally, but you're right context is needed.
Surprised that Ronaldo is still among top 5, as he has basically stopped his dribbling habit and focus more on scoring goals instead in past 6 or 7 years or so. I'd imagine 6 or 7 years ago he was among top 2, more closer behind Messi.
Well its just like Henry vs Ruud. Ruud, who was a forward from the very beginning, scored 349 goals in 592 games. Henry, who was a winger at the beginning (for 6 years), scored only 360 goals in 792 games in total. Looks really bad in ratio. But he actually scored 226 goals in 369 games in Arsenal when he was converted as forward, and was one of the best forward in Premier league history with highest ratio.
Messi has actually played more games in La Liga during their time in La Liga (09-18), and score more goals too, despite have a worse ratio.
09-10: Ronaldo was actually injured for a few months, only scored 33 goals in 35 games overall. Messi has scored 47 goals in 53 games overall. Ronaldo still had better ratio, but with much less goals and apperances.
16-17: Ageing Ronaldo started focusing in CL more (12 goals in 13 games) and rested more in La Liga (25 goals in 29 games). Messi scored 37 goals in 34 La Liga games.
17-18: Ronaldo again focus more in CL (15 goals in 13 games), and rested more again in La Liga (26 goals in 27 games). Messi had 34 goals in 36 La Liga games, but only 6 goals in 10 CL games.
In conclusion,
1. Messi is better goalscorer in La Liga in terms of total no. during their time, although Ronaldo is nearly the same, scored/played less, but with better ratio.
2. Ronaldo is better goalscorer in CL, more total goals and more important goals, but Messi is not far behind and may still have a chance to catch up in future (127 goals vs 113 goals), especially when he was 2 years younger, and playing for a more attacking side.
3. Ronaldo is better goalscorer for international, Messi is very unlikely to catch up, at 32, I think its almost impossible. (99 goals vs 70 goals). My guess is, Ronaldo would probably end up his career with 110-120 goals, Messi would probably end up with 80-90 goals. I expect they would both retired from national team after 2022 WC. (really, 3 year from now, Ronaldo will be 37, Messi will be 35, there's no chance they could play another WC after that, they should just retire for good)
Verdict,
1. Ronaldo and Messi will both score 800+ career goals when they retired. Probably no one will come close to break their record for long time. Maybe Mbappe has a small chance (still too early to say), he started really well at young age, already scored 97 goals at age 20, but he was at easy league to score goals, and it also depends on many many years of keeping up consistency at highest level.
2. Presumably Ronaldo will score 110+ international goals, his record won't be broken for a long time. Neymar looks likely to reach near 100 goals, but I am not sure, he seems past his best already. Lukaku may have a chance of reaching 100 goals, if he keep scoring 8-10 goals per year in next 5-6 years (by 32 years old), with Belgium world class midfield supply its possible. Kane may have a small chance of reaching 100 goals too, if he keep up his great form for next 6-7 years (by 33-34 years old). But it's also rare for players to keep up for many years, so I think both is unlkely.
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Messi has far greater ratio in shots to goals ratio compared to ronaldo so he is arguebly a better finisher as well. Probably a better conversion of free kicks as well.
Mate read the stats there are all stats starting from the 09 season and Ronaldo before that was a winger.
No. Read again the post I made these are his stats from 09 when both “began the rivalry” per say Ronaldo was a winger before that a flashy creative winger.
Since 09 and his whole time in Madrid he had a better goal scoring ratio then Messi in every single competition.
Messi leads him overall because Ronaldo was a winger for first 5 years and never a goal scorer.
Messi has almost always played in an around the box where as Ronaldo has not.
Since 09 there is no debate if we are going off of ratios as Ronaldo leads every single category as shown above.
I found this recently and thought it was pretty interesting. They had pretty similar stats the first 4/5 years of their career:
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