Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[shamans]

Disagree, put him on any top 5 team in the epl he’ll look amazing. He routinely crushes epl teams while having very little support lately. Barca’s second best scorer is own goal.

If he doesn’t have to always go deep to pick up the ball to start the build up he can be very good anywhere. If Aguero, Salah and Mane can be very good on a variety of teams Messi would outclass them all.

If Auba can do the business for Arsenal absolutely no reason why Messi couldn’t.

Messi could do the business no doubt but would he be as good as he has been for Barca?

Before anyone is quick to jump on me I'm not suggesting the old wouldnt hack it in the PL narrative. Hed likely be PL player of the season every year but would he be the Messi of the world we know? Also the one team that he plays for that isnt Barca -- he has regularly shat himself there

 

[TsuWave]

Leading your national team to glory ain’t for everyone

 

[ReallyUSA]

Leading your national team to glory ain’t for everyone

especially for people who take hgh

 

[KirkDuyt]

For international career purposes the question should be, who's been less shite. Because they' re both shite at it.

 

[Cal?]

For international career purposes the question should be, who's been less shite. Because they' re both shite at it.

I don't see how you can make a case for Ronaldo being shite at internationals.

Portugal's record has improved immensely in his time.

 

[Bole Top]

I don't see how you can make a case for Ronaldo being shite at internationals.

Portugal's record has improved immensely in his time.

so did Argentina. their last copa win was almost 30 years ago. they also didn't progress past the WC quarters for 30 years. both of them clearly improved their national teams, but never to the point they could beat the best.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I don't see how you can make a case for Ronaldo being shite at internationals.

Portugal's record has improved immensely in his time.

Relatively speaking. Ronaldo is arguably the best player ever. Results aside he could ve done better I'd say. Goes doubly for Messi who just looks lost for Argentina.

Ronaldo's international career is unarguably (is that a word?) better to me, since he won the euros.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

No, I thought he was ONE of the best players in the CL, but it’s ironic the Messi fans resorted to talking about the CL when they’ve claimed for years that the CL requires a lot of luck, is just a handful of games, etc etc

It takes luck to win the thing, it doesn't take luck to perform there.

Seriously? You’re going with best player in the CL?

Funny how you go from laughing at the idea of Messi being the best player in the CL to saying he was one of the best in about 8 seconds. Name 5 players who were better than him in the CL this season and prepare for everyone to laugh at you without having to immediately backpedal.

 

[K13]

I don't see how you can make a case for Ronaldo being shite at internationals.

Portugal's record has improved immensely in his time.

Portugal at the Euros... Ronaldo made debut in 2003
1996 - 5th
2000 - 3rd
2004 - 2nd
2008 - 7th
2012 - 3rd
2016 - 1st

Portugal at the WC... Ronaldo made debut in 2003
1998 - did not qualify
2002 - 21st
2006 - 4th
2010 - 11th
2014 - 18th
2018 - 13th

Argentina at the Copa America .. Messi made debut in 2005
1997 - 6th
1998 - 8th
2004 - 2nd
2007 - 2nd
2011 - 7th
2015 - 2nd
2016 - 2nd

Argentina at the WC .. Messi made debut in 2005
1998 - 6th
2002 - 18th
2006 - 6th
2010 - 5th
2014 - 2nd
2018 - 16th

 

[roonster09]

Portugal at the Euros... Ronaldo made debut in 2003
1996 - 5th
2000 - 3rd
2004 - 2nd
2008 - 7th
2012 - 3rd
2016 - 1st

Portugal losing in QF 1996 means they were 5th and Portugal losing in QF (2008) means they were 7th?

 

[Tostao_80]

No, I thought he was ONE of the best players in the CL, but it’s ironic the Messi fans resorted to talking about the CL when they’ve claimed for years that the CL requires a lot of luck, is just a handful of games, etc etc

Firstly. You laughed when i said that Leo was the best player in the CL. Now you're backtracking and saying he was one of the best. Thats the danger of being hyperbolic in your response.
Secondly, what does luck have to do with how a player individually performs for his team? Leo Messi was Brilliant for Barca in the CL, regardless of whether Barca were lucky or not

 

[K13]

Portugal losing in QF 1996 means they were 5th and Portugal losing in QF (2008) means they were 7th?

Good question - which I don't know the answer to unfortunately.

In 96 Portugal lost in the quarters to the eventual runners up - Czech Republic so you would I guess expect the quarter finals losers to the eventual winners Germany to be fourth - Croatia. Croatia are listed as 7th for that tournament.

 

[roonster09]

Good question - which I don't know the answer to unfortunately.

In 96 Portugal lost in the quarters to the eventual runners up - Czech Republic so you would I guess expect the quarter finals losers to the eventual winners Germany to be fourth - Croatia. Croatia are listed as 7th for that tournament.

2008 Portugal lost to eventual runners up too. They lost to Germany who went to finals.

 

[Peyroteo]

For international career purposes the question should be, who's been less shite. Because they' re both shite at it.

That’s insane. Only way you can say this is if you have 0 clue about our national team and Ronaldo’s performances. It’s so far way from the truth it’s incredible. He’s the greatest Portuguese player by a mile. His legacy for the national teams is three times bigger than anyone else’s, Eusebio included. He’ll easily score over 100 international goals, most of them important goals. He’s the top ever goalscorer in the Euros, without a single penalty. Singlehandedly carried us out of the groups multiple times, more great performances in tournaments across his career than any other player you’ve seen as had, won us multiple knockout ties, became the leader, captain and symbol the country needed, won us the 3 semifinals to take us to the only 3 finals we’ve ever played... lifted the cup to start the biggest party Portugal will ever see and had us competing eye to eye against he top countries in the world with Nani and Postiga next to him and a midfield of Veloso, Moutinho and Meireles.

How a Dutch of all people can make that comment is beyond me. Ronaldo was MOTM while knocking you out of the Euros over 15 years ago. Completely humiliated you by himself 8 years later in 2012 and 7 years after that put us on his back to take us to a final and stop you from winning your first title in over 30 years. It’s been 13 years since we played a WC match in which you were so scared of him the entire gameplan was to kick the shit out of him until he got injured...

 

[K13]

2008 Portugal lost to eventual runners up too. They lost to Germany who went to finals.

I have never really given the final positions much thought beyond the top 4.

They must have a formula / grading system much like the ranking system pre draw.

I am curious now and will see if I can find anything on how they rank the positions below the top 4

 

[Peyroteo]

so did Argentina. their last copa win was almost 30 years ago. they also didn't progress past the WC quarters for 30 years. both of them clearly improved their national teams, but never to the point they could beat the best.

What? We most definitely could beat the best. We were the toughest opponent to the best national team of the century in Spain. They beat us through an offside goal in 2010 and on penalties in 2012.

While having Postiga/Almeida as centreforwards and being generally below average everywhere else. Ballack knocked us out in 2008 after a blatant foul that went uncalled but again, we were every bit as good as them that day.

We outplayed France in 2006 in the 2006 WC semifinals with Ronaldo being our best player by a mile.

We could beat the best and certainly did so multiple times. 20 years from now when Argentina are still the top team they’ve always been while we revert back to the mediocrity of the pre-golden generation era by regularly missing tournaments and doing worse than average European countries people will understand just how much Ronaldo shifted expectations about our football.

Before Messi, Argentina were two-time WC winners and 14 time Copa America winners. Before Ronaldo, we had never even played a final. We’ve reached the knockouts of tournaments 7 times with Ronaldo, 3 times in our entire history before him. We’ve made it to 8 tournaments with Ronaldo, 5 in our entire history before Ronaldo. Check how many teams have done better than us since Ronaldo’s been playing and how many did better than us before Ronaldo. No one in football history has had the impact he’s had for us, but now apparently people want him to the same with Portugal as what R9 or Pele did with Brazil or Maradona with Argentina as if either of them could have ever got even close to doing what Ronaldo did across 16 years if they were born Portuguese in this era.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

It takes some real mental gymnastics to try and act as if Ronaldo has had some legendary international career. Never have I watched him at an international tournament and thought this guy is one of the best of all time.

 

[Gehrman]

I still just don't see Messi being that good in another team. Sure, take him out of Barca and put him in Peps City team and he would tear the prem apart. Take him out of barca and put him in Utd, Chelsea, Arse or Tottenham? I just don't see him being anywhere near the same player.

That's the difference for me. You can put Ronaldo in any decent team In any league and he will smash it. Especial a few years ago. When he was early / mid twenties you could have put him in the Brighton team and he'd have run riot. People do him a massive, massive disservice as to how good he was outside of just the goals.

There is not really a lot of evidence of that though. Ronaldo has played for the top teams in every league United, Real and Juventus. You can only go by the fact that he still scores goals for portugal but that its it. I don't think Messi in 2012 would be the beast who scored over 90 goals without being in that Barca team, but put 24 old Messi in most teams as a forward I still think he'd rip plenty of teams apart, because of his insane dribbling ability and long range shooting. He's more than capaple than creating chances for himself, but it's true you can't really pump crosses into because he's a midget. It's true that Ronaldo's international record is slilghty better, but Messi is also the all time scorer for Argentina despite not winning a trophy.

Personally I can't fault Messi for not leaving Barcalona. He grew up in the academy for the perfect club for him that favours the technical style that suits him. Since Guardiola they have more or less have become the biggest club in the world thanks in part to the Messi phenomenom. Honestly what club could he join that wouldn't be step down? City is a mercenary club despite being brilliant now, same goes for PSG and Chelsea. United is shit and so is Arsenal. Liverpool have only recently become very good they might not be able to afford him. Bayern might be a thought, but the bundesliga would be a step down. Juventus has Ronaldo now although they could play together which would be mint despite the fact they are old now.

 

[Gehrman]

It takes some real mental gymnastics to try and act as if Ronaldo has had some legendary international career. Never have I watched him at an international tournament and thought this guy is one of the best of all time.

I thought his hattrick vs Spain in the last WC was pretty good TBH.

 

[Bole Top]

What? We most definitely could beat the best.

yet you never did. I don't really care about the effort you put into it since no-one is questioning that, the fact is that you've lost every time you faced Germany or Spain in key match and that's fine. you also lost to the same (actually older) Uruguay and Chile sides Argentina lost to (and Messi was mocked for). the only trully top side you did beat, at least I considered them to be top side even then, were France in that final but since we're talking about Ronnie/Messi doing it, it's irrelevant in that particular context since Ronaldo was out.

No one in football history has had the impact he’s had for us, but now apparently people want him to the same with Portugal as what R9 or Pele did with Brazil or Maradona with Argentina as if either of them could have ever got even close to doing what Ronaldo did across 16 years if they were born Portuguese in this era.

well, precisely because of the narrative that Ronaldo doesn't need absolute quality behind him to beat the best they expect him to do it. also, Portugal isn't Scotland or Poland.

where Argentina or Portugal will be in 20 years I'm not bothered to guess.

 

[Peyroteo]

It takes some real mental gymnastics to try and act as if Ronaldo has had some legendary international career. Never have I watched him at an international tournament and thought this guy is one of the best of all time.

Some of his best performances ever came in international football and at tournaments.

2004 vs Rússia, 2004 vs Holland, 2006 vs France, 2008 vs Czech Republic, 2010 vs North Korea, 2012 vs Holland, 2012 vs Czech Republic, 2016 vs Hungary, 2016 vs Wales, 2018 vs Spain, 2019 vs Switzerland... that’s without qualification where he took us to tournaments with incredible performances several times. 2013 playoff vs Sweden and 2011 playoff vs Bosnia being the obvious two. I guess if he had all those performances in one tournament and then had 7 mediocre tournaments or didn’t even get called up for those he’d be a true international legend while giving us a much smaller chance of success rather than consistently putting us up there with the best for what will be 2 decades when he decides to retire.

 

[Bole Top]

I don't think Messi in 2012 would be the beast who scored over 90 goals without being in that Barca team, but put 24 old Messi in most teams as a forward I still think he'd rip plenty of teams apart, because of his insane dribbling ability and long range shooting. He's more than capaple than creating chances for himself, but it's true you can't really pump crosses into because he's a midget.

I think people are mistaking disfunctional system with just different system. he didn't play a single, fixed position his whole career and Barca haven't been playing the same system during all these years. Messi in current Argentina, who can't do shit regardless of opponent, isn't the standard Messi otherwise he wouldn't be their all time top scorer.

 

[Peyroteo]

yet you never did. I don't really care about the effort you put into it since no-one is questioning that, the fact is that you've lost every time you faced Germany or Spain in key match and that's fine. you also lost to the same (actually older) Uruguay and Chile sides Argentina lost to (and Messi was mocked for). the only trully top side you did beat, at least I considered them to be top side even then, were France in that final but since we're talking about Ronnie/Messi doing it, it's irrelevant in that particular context since Ronaldo was out.

We beat Spain in 2004 and drew in 2018. Lost via an offside goal in 2010 and on penalties in 2012.

Beat France and Croatia in 2016, both teams made it to the WC final 2 years later. Drew with Brazil in 2010. Knocked the Dutch out in 2004, 2006, 2012 and 2019. England’s golden generation in 2004 and 2006.

Were the Dutch that made it to the WC final in 2010 and the WC semifinals in 2014 not a top team in 2012? Sneijder, Robben, Van Persie, Van der Vaart...

 

[Bole Top]

We beat Spain in 2004 and drew in 2018. Lost via an offside goal in 2010 and on penalties in 2012.

Beat France and Croatia in 2016, both teams made it to the WC final 2 years later. Drew with Brazil in 2010. Knocked the Dutch out in 2004, 2006, 2012 and 2019. England’s golden generation in 2004 and 2006.

Were the Dutch that made it to the WC final in 2010 and the WC semifinals in 2014 not a top team in 2012? Sneijder, Robben, Van Persie, Van der Vaart...

well, if we are going to include Spain 2004, England "golden generation", us (Croatia), and that Dutch sides as top national sides, then Uruguay and Chile are also top sides. pretty much every NT is top team in that case. Portugal too, which means Ronaldo also played for top national team. so where's the problem? why shouldn't people expect him to do Maradona/R9/whatever in that case?

 

[Gehrman]

TBH it would be cool to see how and if Ronaldo and Messi played together. If Ronaldo had opted for Barcelona as his dream move instead of Real Madrid. Not really sure Ronaldo would be better in Barcelona though. He thrives on explosive counter attacking football instead of tiki taka.

 

[KirkDuyt]

What? We most definitely could beat the best. We were the toughest opponent to the best national team of the century in Spain. They beat us through an offside goal in 2010 and on penalties in 2012.

While having Postiga/Almeida as centreforwards and being generally below average everywhere else. Ballack knocked us out in 2008 after a blatant foul that went uncalled but again, we were every bit as good as them that day.

We outplayed France in 2006 in the 2006 WC semifinals with Ronaldo being our best player by a mile.

We could beat the best and certainly did so multiple times. 20 years from now when Argentina are still the top team they’ve always been while we revert back to the mediocrity of the pre-golden generation era by regularly missing tournaments and doing worse than average European countries people will understand just how much Ronaldo shifted expectations about our football.

Before Messi, Argentina were two-time WC winners and 14 time Copa America winners. Before Ronaldo, we had never even played a final. We’ve reached the knockouts of tournaments 7 times with Ronaldo, 3 times in our entire history before him. We’ve made it to 8 tournaments with Ronaldo, 5 in our entire history before Ronaldo. Check how many teams have done better than us since Ronaldo’s been playing and how many did better than us before Ronaldo. No one in football history has had the impact he’s had for us, but now apparently people want him to the same with Portugal as what R9 or Pele did with Brazil or Maradona with Argentina as if either of them could have ever got even close to doing what Ronaldo did across 16 years if they were born Portuguese in this era.

You're such a funny guy

 

[Peyroteo]

You're such a funny guy

Not really. I just actually followed the Portuguese national team and remember the games, unlike 99% of people here talking about the Portuguese national team.

 

[K13]

Some of his best performances ever came in international football and at tournaments.

2004 vs Rússia, 2004 vs Holland, 2006 vs France, 2008 vs Czech Republic, 2010 vs North Korea, 2012 vs Holland, 2012 vs Czech Republic, 2016 vs Hungary, 2016 vs Wales, 2018 vs Spain, 2019 vs Switzerland... that’s without qualification where he took us to tournaments with incredible performances several times. 2013 playoff vs Sweden and 2011 playoff vs Bosnia being the obvious two. I guess if he had all those performances in one tournament and then had 7 mediocre tournaments or didn’t even get called up for those he’d be a true international legend while giving us a much smaller chance of success rather than consistently putting us up there with the best for what will be 2 decades when he decides to retire.

2019 v Switzerland ... to be honest I think it was our neighbour's very own Bernardo Da Silva who was absolutely brilliant for you in that game. Ronaldo scored the goals but this man caused absolute havoc and fully deserved his player of the tournament award.

At the Euros in 2008 Ronaldo may have played that game well but overall he was just not good enough to get into the team of the tournament. No shame in that as there were some excellent performances from the Spanish team.

I am not knocking Ronaldo as he is part of our 'family'. In 2008 when he scored 40+ goals I appreciated his skill but also the immense and unselfish role Rooney played. At portugal you had the wonderful Deco and you now have the amazing Bernardo Da Silva who is in my opinion your best player now. So you have had some great creative talents to provide chances for your goals scorers.

As a neutral who regards Messi as the best player I have ever seen it would be like me saying he does everything on his own. In 2014 WC there were some great performances from the likes of Mascherano and Di Maria. They all played their part in the path to the final even the likes of Rojo with his crucial goal. They were beaten by a better 23 man squad.

Teams are made up of players and a strong 23 man squad with the right balance is needed for these tournaments. It is why you won the Euro 2016 - Nani and Ronaldo both scored 3 each and when injuries hit ie the final you had sufficient strength in depth to cope without your key man. Germany, Spain and France have also used their superior 23 man squads to good advantage.

The more individually talented teams - Brazil, Argentina, Dutch don't have the same make up as they rely too much on their couple of stars. We also did with Rooney and the return to a better balanced 23 and less reliance on a star man was key to our last world cup. It looks like the penny has dropped with Brazil, Holland and Argentinia now as this summer their squads have started to look far more balanced, better tactics and they are playing better as a result. Success is therefore much more likely.

 

[SteveTheRed]

It takes some real mental gymnastics to try and act as if Ronaldo has had some legendary international career. Never have I watched him at an international tournament and thought this guy is one of the best of all time.

To win your first trophy for your country ever, as a captain and talisman for the team. Silver boot, team of the tournament - pretty much guarantees you legendary status for your country.

 

[Bole Top]

Not really. I just actually followed the Portuguese national team and remember the games, unlike 99% of people here talking about the Portuguese national team.

well, you obviously didn't do your homework with the Argies since you're trying to make it look like Messi debuted in 1990., right after Maradona and not in 2004. you're also presenting as a fact where Argentina will be in 20 years even though they haven't won anything since 1993 (Copa). after that, they've had 3 straight losses in quarterfinals at Copa and when it comes to WC, they've lost two times in quarters and one time they didn't even past the group stage. they were going nowhere in those days yet you seem convinced they're going back straight to Maradona days after Messi retires. if he could only hurry up a bit, eh? don't get me wrong, I know why you're doing it and I find it funny, personally.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Not really. I just actually followed the Portuguese national team and remember the games, unlike 99% of people here talking about the Portuguese national team.

You're just so fecking tribal about this subject. Well obviously not just you, it's both sides in this thread, but there's more to the universe than just black and white mate. It's okay if someone doesn't agree Ronaldo has the best national team career in the history of competitive sports.

For what it's worth, if Ronaldo was Dutch I would be completely convinced he was the best national team player ever, so feck it. Just, take a chill pill or something. And about the Dutch and 2012 in particular, we were also humiliated by the fearsome Dennis Rommedahl. We were really really fecking shite. Even worse than Ronaldo

 

[Peyroteo]

You're just so fecking tribal about this subject. Well obviously not just you, it's both sides in this thread, but there's more to the universe than just black and white mate. It's okay if someone doesn't agree Ronaldo has the best national team career in the history of competitive sports.

For what it's worth, if Ronaldo was Dutch I would be completely convinced he was the best national team player ever, so feck it. Just, take a chill pill or something. And about the Dutch and 2012 in particular, we were also humiliated by the fearsome Dennis Rommedahl. We were really really fecking shite. Even worse than Ronaldo

Tribal? When you make just factually wrong statements like the one you did of course that reaction is the only thing possible. What else am I supposed to reply to that? It’s like me coming here arguing Heskey is a better player than Messi only to act outraged when someone laughs at it.

Denmark had a good team in 2012 and they didn’t humiliate you at all or even had that good of a game.

You got to the final in 2010 WC and lost on penalties in the 2014 WC semifinal but with the exact same core you happen to be really shite in 2012 when Ronaldo completely obliterated you in what’s undoubtedly one of the best individual performances ever at an international tournament. Right...

It’s one thing to not agree he has the best international career it’s another to say what you said. He’s had more great games in international tournaments than Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldo Fenómeno or Platini ffs. Mainly because he had more than twice the longevity than most of those but it is what it is. Not his fault they were all retired at his age. I guess two great years and 5 decent ones is better than a 20 year career of high level performances now.

Maybe we are stupid here in Portugal and should go back to 2010 to compare him to Eusébio again.

 

[InterFan1998]

I don't think Messi and Ronaldo are bad for their international teams, just not as good as for their respective clubs... especially when you look at the World Cup knockouts, which is the biggest stage there is.

 

[Peyroteo]

2019 v Switzerland ... to be honest I think it was our neighbour's very own Bernardo Da Silva who was absolutely brilliant for you in that game. Ronaldo scored the goals but this man caused absolute havoc and fully deserved his player of the tournament award.

Ronaldo was obviously miles better than Bernardo Silva in that game.

Bernardo deserved player of the tournament because he actually played in the group stages... Ronaldo played 2 games.

At portugal you had the wonderful Deco and you now have the amazing Bernardo Da Silva who is in my opinion your best player now. So you have had some great creative talents to provide chances for your goals scorers.

Our goalscorers?? Which goalscorers?

Deco was done after 2006 and Bernardo started playing in 2019 at a great level. That’s 13 years with 0 above average creative players in the team. Nani and Danny are the creative players of the Ronaldo era, not Figo, Deco or Bernardo.

Saying Bernardo has been anywhere near our best player is just wrong, he had an insanely poor World Cup. Our best player after Ronaldo has still been Pepe. Then William. Only then Bernardo.

As a neutral who regards Messi as the best player I have ever seen it would be like me saying he does everything on his own. In 2014 WC there were some great performances from the likes of Mascherano and Di Maria. They all played their part in the path to the final even the likes of Rojo with his crucial goal. They were beaten by a better 23 man squad.

Teams are made up of players and a strong 23 man squad with the right balance is needed for these tournaments. It is why you won the Euro 2016 - Nani and Ronaldo both scored 3 each and when injuries hit ie the final you had sufficient strength in depth to cope without your key man. Germany, Spain and France have also used their superior 23 man squads to good advantage.

The more individually talented teams - Brazil, Argentina, Dutch don't have the same make up as they rely too much on their couple of stars. We also did with Rooney and the return to a better balanced 23 and less reliance on a star man was key to our last world cup. It looks like the penny has dropped with Brazil, Holland and Argentinia now as this summer their squads have started to look far more balanced, better tactics and they are playing better as a result. Success is therefore much more likely.

I’m not sure I understand your point here. You’re saying we won Euro 2016 because of our balanced squad and our strong depth as opposed to teams such as Spain and Germany?? Eliseu, Bruno Alves and Vieirinha were our back up defense, Éder was our only striker, Quaresma our creative option off the bench..

 

[KirkDuyt]

Tribal? When you make just factually wrong statements like the one you did of course that reaction is the only thing possible. What else am I supposed to reply to that? It’s like me coming here arguing Heskey is a better player than Messi only to act outraged when someone laughs at it.

Denmark had a good team in 2012 and they didn’t humiliate you at all or even had that good of a game.

You got to the final in 2010 WC and lost on penalties in the 2014 WC semifinal but with the exact same core you happen to be really shite in 2012 when Ronaldo completely obliterated you in what’s undoubtedly one of the best individual performances ever at an international tournament. Right...

It’s one thing to not agree he has the best international career it’s another to say what you said. He’s had more great games in international tournaments than Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldo Fenómeno or Platini ffs. Mainly because he had more than twice the longevity than most of those but it is what it is. Not his fault they were all retired at his age. I guess two great years and 5 decent ones is better than a 20 year career of high level performances now.

Maybe we are stupid here in Portugal and should go back to 2010 to compare him to Eusébio again.

We were shite in 2012. We just were. Huntelaar was angry that he wasnt wasnt getting any games and the groups raport with Van Marwijk had deteriorated massively. Denmark wasnt a strong team. We were sunk by Dennis fecking Rommedahl. The Ajax player that wasnt good enough to do well at Ajax in the Dutch league. Apart from the Spain game we were also shite in 2014. We had an easy draw and only scored one goal from open play in the knock out stages. Also, obliterated is a stretch, it was 2-1 and we were pretty much out either way. Our last genuinely great national team was the 1998-2000 team. And in 2010 we had a magical Sneijder with the worlds cnutiest midfield block of Vn Bommel and De Jong kicking everyone to pieces.

And there isnt such thing as factually wrong or right when judging someone. The fact are that apart from being the worst team winning the euros since Greece Ronaldo hasn't done that much.

And yes tribal. Extremely fecking tribal. Don't tell me you lack the self awareness to see that. It's fecking sad.

 

[Peyroteo]

We were shite in 2012. We just were. Huntelaar was angry that he wasnt wasnt getting any games and the groups raport with Van Marwijk had deteriorated massively. Denmark wasnt a strong team. We were sunk by Dennis fecking Rommedahl. The Ajax player that wasnt good enough to do well at Ajax in the Dutch league. Apart from the Spain game we were also shite in 2014. We had an easy draw and only scored one goal from open play in the knock out stages. Also, obliterated is a stretch, it was 2-1 and we were pretty much out either way. Our last genuinely great national team was the 1998-2000 team. And in 2010 we had a magical Sneijder with the worlds cnutiest midfield block of Vn Bommel and De Jong kicking everyone to pieces.

And there isnt such thing as factually wrong or right when judging someone. The fact are that apart from being the worst team winning the euros since Greece Ronaldo hasn't done that much.

And yes tribal. Extremely fecking tribal. Don't tell me you lack the self awareness to see that. It's fecking sad.

The irony of you telling me that is hilarious.

He did nothing apart from being the worst team since Greece at winning the Euros? Seriously... what? He was a legend for us 10 years before Euro 2016 even happened... How else do you want me to reply to that other than call it completely not true? Besides, is being the worst team since Greece at winning the Euros meant to be an insult? Only Spain won it in the meantime and we were so bad we got to the WC knockouts and won the Nations League too in the following years. Greece 2.0 as advertised, it was all luck despite getting fecked over by the refs all across the tournament.

The problem here is you judge Ronaldo’s national team results as if he was born Brazilian or German instead of Portuguese.

R9 gets excused for winning next to nothing in club football because of his teams but then in international football we’re supposed to forget one played next to Nani and Postiga while the other had Rivaldo and Ronaldinho and Brazil’s B teams were winning Copa Americas for fun

 

[KirkDuyt]

The irony of you telling me that is hilarious.

He did nothing apart from being the worst team since Greece at winning the Euros? Seriously... what? He was a legend for us 10 years before Euro 2016 even happened... How else do you want me to reply to that other than call it completely not true? Besides, is being the worst team since Greece at winning the Euros meant to be an insult? Only Spain won it in the meantime and we were so bad we got to the WC knockouts and won the Nations League too in the following years. Greece 2.0 as advertised, it was all luck despite getting fecked over by the refs all across the tournament.

The problem here is you judge Ronaldo’s national team results as if he was born Brazilian or German instead of Portuguese.

R9 gets excused for winning next to nothing in club football because of his teams but then in international football we’re supposed to forget one played next to Nani and Postiga while the other had Rivaldo and Ronaldinho.

My original post was that both Messi and Ronaldo have been relatively poor for their national team. Relatively being the key word. Surely you can admit that Ronaldo's greatest achievements are from his club career? He didn't play the final in 2016 and in any other tournament in history they would've been out at the group stages. That's hardly rivalling Maradonna in 86. No one's saying Ronaldo has been shite for Portugal (Admittedly I did a bit to wind you up in my last post), but he hasn't won as much as he could have. and it's great that he's had many good games, but without cups that doesn't count for anything. Or do you think Messi has had a great international career for making so many finals and being so close to winning trophies and even being voted player of the tournament in 2014? No, you don't think so, so why change the metrics for Ronaldo.

And he is being judged as a Portugal player, because no player in Brazil or Germany would ever be considered a national team legend without winning any honors as Ronaldo apparently was from 2006-2016. They would be considered failures. Argentina is also a giant in international football, but currently nowhere near a top 5 side. Better than Portugal perhaps, but that's also why I think Messi's career has been worse than Ronaldo's. That's the funny thing, I actually agree that Ronaldo is more successful than Messi, but anything other than absolute acknowledgement is met with a barrage of hyperbolic outrage and

Also, yes, I'm also biased, everyone's biased, difference is that I actually realize and admit to it. If only you lot in here would do the same the conversation wouldn't be so fecking hostile and laden with endles statsheet to prove the objectivity of posts.

 

[shahzy]

Messi could do the business no doubt but would he be as good as he has been for Barca?

Before anyone is quick to jump on me I'm not suggesting the old wouldnt hack it in the PL narrative. Hed likely be PL player of the season every year but would he be the Messi of the world we know? Also the one team that he plays for that isnt Barca -- he has regularly shat himself there

Tend to agree with this sentiment. I feel as if he is the perfect product of a system that is designed exactly for that specific type of player. The system how Barca play is tailor made for a player that's got the skills Messi has got which IMO makes him look even better than he is.

Same thing, before anyone jumps on me and cries I still think he's one of the best of all time. I just tend to think he isn't above Ronaldo. I think they are pretty much dead even.

Messi in the Prem would still be the best player no doubt. No one is doubting that. What they are saying is that he wouldn't be the same guy who scored 40+ a season + assists. Sure if he played for man City he would get those stats but again the argument is City also play a system that he is suited to perfectly. Move him out the system and he's not as good as people think. But still obviously top 5 player of all time level.

 

[Gehrman]

Tend to agree with this sentiment. I feel as if he is the perfect product of a system that is designed exactly for that specific type of player. The system how Barca play is tailor made for a player that's got the skills Messi has got which IMO makes him look even better than he is.

Same thing, before anyone jumps on me and cries I still think he's one of the best of all time. I just tend to think he isn't above Ronaldo. I think they are pretty much dead even.

Messi in the Prem would still be the best player no doubt. No one is doubting that. What they are saying is that he wouldn't be the same guy who scored 40+ a season + assists. Sure if he played for man City he would get those stats but again the argument is City also play a system that he is suited to perfectly. Move him out the system and he's not as good as people think. But still obviously top 5 player of all time level.

On the other hand you can also say that Messi has proven his versality from being a explosive RW, to being a false 9 to being attacking midfield maestro while breaking all records in each position. Personally I'd say that is proof of his GOAT material alone.

We will never know how he would perform in other teams, we can just say, he hasn't been the GOAT player for Argentina than he has for Barcelona. I think there are lot of factors in a player performance. Personally I think both prime Messi and Ronaldo would be lesser players if we stuck in our current United team with our current shitty atmosphere.

Personally I think the mentality of Ronaldo and Messi is amazing. Other great players have proven they can be the best in the world for a few seasons and then they drop off. Ronaldo and Messi has done it for over a decade. Which is why it's kind of mental to say that Messi has a weak mentality. I guess on a few occasions he does, but no one but him and Ronaldo can bear the burden to be expected to score over a goal a game in every season in almost their entire career.

 

[Peyroteo]

My original post was that both Messi and Ronaldo have been relatively poor for their national team. Relatively being the key word. Surely you can admit that Ronaldo's greatest achievements are from his club career?

Ronaldo’s biggest achievements come from his club career because he’s played with better teams from club than country, not because he’s played any worse.

He didn't play the final in 2016 and in any other tournament in history they would've been out at the group stages. That's hardly rivalling Maradonna in 86.

No one said it did. Lots of grey area between ‘poor’ and ‘Maradona 86’ though.

If we won the penalty shootout vs Spain in 2012 and lost vs Poland in 2016 the narrative would completely change.

We didn’t win it with him having an insanely good tournament but he’s consistently raised our level for what can possibly be over 20 years by the time he retires and we had a decent chance every time. Which other all time great has been as important for their country as Ronaldo has been to Portugal for such a long amount of time?

No one's saying Ronaldo has been shite for Portugal (Admittedly I did a bit to wind you up in my last post), but he hasn't won as much as he could have.

Isn’t that true for literally everyone?

He won a lot more than anyone ever expected him to.

and it's great that he's had many good games, but without cups that doesn't count for anything.

Of course it counts for something. Come on... or is Cruyff’s international career mediocre?

Or do you think Messi has had a great international career for making so many finals and being so close to winning trophies and even being voted player of the tournament in 2014? No, you don't think so, so why change the metrics for Ronaldo.

The metrics are the same, the expectations aren’t. I don’t believe Argentina getting to a Copa America final is any sort of big achievement at all or that it can in any way be compared to us reaching a Euros final. Especially so when it’s pretty much turned into a yearly tournament.

Portugal in the Ronaldo era have been a massive success with the people and media showing incredible support and gratitude. Argentina in the Messi era have been the complete opposite. Of course it can’t be judged the same when in relation to the expectations of the countries for their teams, one has succeeded and the other failed.